Badger5 TIP copied

This was always going to happen and I'm suprised it's taken aslong as this. I don't think you can really call these cheap tho, the price difference between the copies and the original is about the cost of a tank of fuel.

That said what would be good to do is organise a group buy from badger (assuming he's keen on it). No idea on the costs involved buying these or the margin on them, but if all the forums badger supports could get a group buy going 50+ people it should be good for 15% discount making the price difference between the next to **** all. Leaving no point buying the copy and the ****ers at creation sat on a few thousand £s worth of stock wishing they hadnt tried it :)
 
QUESTION

Dear creationsmotorsport_com,

Is this not just a cheap copy of the original Badger 5 Tip?

- ****gavin


RESPONSE

Thank you for your question. Can you you define "cheap copy" for us? If you look at our feedback on forums, website and ebay it speaks volumes. What determines this item as "cheap"?

Its made out of the same silicone and ally as others without the price tag. You are welcome to spend £180 on one if you feel its justified.

Here at CreationsMotorsport we manufacture quality products at affordable prices nothing more nothing less.

thanks


- creationsmotorsport_com
 
response

so, not only are you stupid enough to copy a very well known and respected product by a reputable tuner, but you are also stupid enough not to understand the term 'cheap copy' it really is quite simple.

to truly define it for you, if you realllly need such simple words defining. 'cheap',adjective, meaning low in cost. synonyms: inexpensive. low. shoddy.
'copy', noun, a thing made to be similar or identical to another. synonyms: duplicate, replica.

i hope this has educated you enough that you can answer my original question.
Is this not just a cheap copy of the original Badger 5 Tip?

cheers

^see if that works
 
I know I'm going to get shot down here but how do you all know it's going to be a "cheap copy" without comparing them side by side? They may just have cheaper suppliers? It's cool to see you're all supporting Bill but would you do the same about a HTC or Samsung touch screen phone after the iPhone came out?

This sort of thing happens in every industry including mine (design). Someone comes up with a product or idea and others copy (and heaven forbid, sometimes improve them). They might get different suppliers giving a better price on parts so cost to the end user drops. We'd all be driving fords if this sort of thing never happened!

It's **** because of the initial time investment, but it's the way the world works unfortunately.
 
I agree its wrong...
BUT...
Anybody bought "fake" wheels?
Replica alloys?
Anybody tried to make up a brake kit like a brembo set up????

All kind of the same thing?
 
superkarl said:
response

so, not only are you stupid enough to copy a very well known and respected product by a reputable tuner, but you are also stupid enough not to understand the term 'cheap copy' it really is quite simple.

to truly define it for you, if you realllly need such simple words defining. 'cheap',adjective, meaning low in cost. synonyms: inexpensive. low. shoddy.
'copy', noun, a thing made to be similar or identical to another. synonyms: duplicate, replica.

i hope this has educated you enough that you can answer my original question.
Is this not just a cheap copy of the original Badger 5 Tip?

cheers

^see if that works
Click to expand...

Hi Gavin

Many thanks for your response to our message. I dont know what agenda you have or what you will gain from messaging us. There are a few 3" tips on the markets and previous to this there were at least 40 different versions of the original silicone tip on the market. No one has a patent or trademark on a tip so lets just get that clear. If anyone had a patent or copyright on a tip and they have any legal issues they are welcome to contact us in our offices in Germany or UK.

What we wont do is get into a debate from Internet worriers or any potential customers. We have had many companies emailing us asking why we are selling items cheaper I guess its affecting their bottom line. The background to this company is its run by enthusiasts who were fed up of paying over the top prices for tuning products. We created this company to sell quality items at affordable prices for the enthusiast. If other companies done like this then I am afraid and I hate to use the cliché but this is simply business with the customer being the main priority. If other manufacturers don't like it maybe they should reduce their prices.

Thanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not going to send anymore incase my ebay account gets banned, i know it's business but this kind of thing annoys the hell out of me
 
s3dave said:
They are always at Inters, Asian guys..
Click to expand...
What's the significance of their ethnicity? I have been browsing on here for years and hardly post but I felt it needed clarification?
 
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blackmagic20vt said:
What's the significance of their ethnicity? I have been browsing on here for years and hardly post but I felt it needed clarification?
Click to expand...
:think: And what is wrong with that? if they were Polish, Russian, American, or any other, i would have said it in the same context, and they have probably been made in ****, like most copied things....
I am certainly not a racist if that is what you are insinuating, and appologise to you, if it came across that way...
 
s3dave said:
:think: And what is wrong with that? if they were Polish, Russian, American, or any other, i would have said it in the same context, and they have probably been made in ****, like most copied things....
I am certainly not a racist if that is what you are insinuating, and appologise to you, if it came across that way...
Click to expand...

I certainly did not imply you were a racist so lets to clear that from the outset. What I was questioning was why you felt the need top imply a persons ethnicity into a conversation when it is of no relevance.

For example one could automatically make the assumption from your comment that this sort of thing happens with all asians then hence the clarification?

You then go on so eloquently and say that if they were Polish Russian American etc you would have said it in the same context. Just to be quite clear as I dont think the penny has dropped yet Asian is a race and an ethnic term. American, Russian are nations full of asians, russians black people white people etc.

You specifically mention a certain race hence the clarification and why the need for it to which you have gone into defensive mode without explaining adn saying you are not a racist.

Moving on from this and if we overlook you first comment you say and I quote "and they have probably been made in ****, like most copied things." forgive me for making assumptions here but what basis is this information on and what is the relevance of this what because the aforementioned people are Asians?

All of a sudden the whole seems a bit deeper than when it started and I am left wondering where this is headed. I apologise if my post offends you but all I was interested in is why a persons race has anything to do with the topic in hand.
 
blackmagic20vt said:
I certainly did not imply you were a racist so lets to clear that from the outset. What I was questioning was why you felt the need top imply a persons ethnicity into a conversation when it is of no relevance.

For example one could automatically make the assumption from your comment that this sort of thing happens with all asians then hence the clarification?

You then go on so eloquently and say that if they were Polish Russian American etc you would have said it in the same context. Just to be quite clear as I dont think the penny has dropped yet Asian is a race and an ethnic term. American, Russian are nations full of asians, russians black people white people etc.

You specifically mention a certain race hence the clarification and why the need for it to which you have gone into defensive mode without explaining adn saying you are not a racist.

Moving on from this and if we overlook you first comment you say and I quote "and they have probably been made in ****, like most copied things." forgive me for making assumptions here but what basis is this information on and what is the relevance of this what because the aforementioned people are Asians?

All of a sudden the whole seems a bit deeper than when it started and I am left wondering where this is headed. I apologise if my post offends you but all I was interested in is why a persons race has anything to do with the topic in hand.
Click to expand...

Can I ask what this topic has to do with a copied B5 TIP? I assume Dave was merely mentioning the people he saw on the stand at the show, and it seems that whatever he responded you were going to pick up on it... Your first post on here was to pass judgement on a passing comment made by another member which isn't really of any significance to the thread.
 
Oh no, the PC brigade is here...

I think Dave only mentioned it so that the die hard B5 fans round house kick the right people :p
 
lets just stop this before it gets out of hand.
nice first post btw. how good of you to start a mass debate.

i personally saw daves comment as referring to the products possible origin of manufacture, as we were all discussing the products quality and price. that is all.

so. does anyone know that SFS actually made a 3 inch tip quite some time ago now?
it brought up the same argument of quality and copying bills product.
the SFS one definately isnt and wasnt as good as the B5 V1 and V2, and iv'e only heard of the odd person buy one, mainly seen on SCN in peoples sigs. point is, the SFS which has been out for a while, is hardly heard of and the same will happen to the creation motorsport one
 
Wow....Trying to bring this back OT...As this copy will be on a stand at inters- does anyone have a B5 tip not fitted they can take along to compare against this cheaper copy? IMO you can't really judge the quality of a product just from pictures.BTW- love the e-mail you sent to them, made me lol!
 
It always amazes me how someone can read into a post the whole racism thing, maybe it's the whole ooh look I can make a statement here and stand out thing. We can all read what we want into the posts we read, the fact is Dave has never and would ever make a derogatory post to sound like how it has been made out to sound.

Anyway back on topic.

Have there been any tests done on the B5 copy as we know how much time and effort Bill has put in, the copy one may be cheaper but how does anyone now it comes anywhere near the performance of Bills.

Sam_ said:
I know I'm going to get shot down here but how do you all know it's going to be a "cheap copy" without comparing them side by side? They may just have cheaper suppliers? It's cool to see you're all supporting Bill but would you do the same about a HTC or Samsung touch screen phone after the iPhone came out?
Click to expand...
Sam_ said:
This sort of thing happens in every industry including mine (design). Someone comes up with a product or idea and others copy (and heaven forbid, sometimes improve them). They might get different suppliers giving a better price on parts so cost to the end user drops. We'd all be driving fords if this sort of thing never happened!

It's **** because of the initial time investment, but it's the way the world works unfortunately.
Click to expand...

Yep I'd do the same as I love my iPhone and Samsung and HTC are a pile of poop lol had one of each and would never go back now I have my apple. :wub:


S3 Andy said:
This was always going to happen and I'm suprised it's taken aslong as this. I don't think you can really call these cheap tho, the price difference between the copies and the original is about the cost of a tank of fuel.

That said what would be good to do is organise a group buy from badger (assuming he's keen on it). No idea on the costs involved buying these or the margin on them, but if all the forums badger supports could get a group buy going 50+ people it should be good for 15% discount making the price difference between the next to **** all. Leaving no point buying the copy and the ****ers at creation sat on a few thousand £s worth of stock wishing they hadnt tried it :)
Click to expand...

Problem with Bill doing a group buy is they cost him more than that to make dude.
 
Just for the record I am not here to create mass debate or to judge anyone, its an open forum for discussion and I just was interested in the comments and their relevance to the topic. The person in question has Pm'd me so please lets leave it at that.
 
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the copycats are on this very forum reading all this you know guys. We can talk and moan about this all day to be honest.

The best way is to vote with our wallets, I'm a member of the V1 Badger5 club, and happy to be so. :)
 
jojo said:
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the copycats are on this very forum reading all this you know guys. We can talk and moan about this all day to be honest.

The best way is to vote with our wallets, I'm a member of the V1 Badger5 club, and happy to be so. :)
Click to expand...

+1
 
rhubarb4 said:



Problem with Bill doing a group buy is they cost him more than that to make dude.
Click to expand...

Appreciate that, what I meant was if people really feel that strongly... Organise a group buy that gives incentive to buy now and drag any potential buyers away from the copy. Generally the group buys get discounts because the like of Bill can go to his manafacturer and get a price break for ordering more units while keeping a similar margin himself.

Usually this type of thing is good for us. The pipewerx dp vs xspower has been good for anyone who waited, AH fabs cooler has pretty much killed any chance of people buying a cooler from forge. But what have Pipewerx or Forge done for any of the VAG forums apart from imo overcharge us? There's not many companies out there still putting effort into new stuff for 1.8ts most have moved on to 2.0tfsi so it's in our benifit to keep it profitable.
 
S3 Andy said:
Generally the group buys get discounts because the like of Bill can go to his manafacturer and get a price break for ordering more units while keeping a similar margin himself.
Click to expand...

GB would have zero effect on buy price to me I'm afraid.
as I eluded to earlier, watch this space for another version of my 80mm tip, which I will consider a GB on.. and is of lower "cost" by design as i know the only times I loose some sales to similar products is the price of the v2.. It is what it is at the design spec its pitched at. The V3 coming shortly deals with this and offers everyone the choice to suit their budget and requirement. The V2 remains the premier product.

qtys of scale do not apply to these I'm afraid.
any % given is straight off my bottom line.
I wont be offering the v2 at stupid "desperate" prices, as the margins are simply not there. You cannot make an equivalent quality product for the price put simply.

I know the quality of mine, and billet will not be surpassed by anything.... Precision component, made by precision UK machine shop friend. 2nd to none.

Keep your eye's out for the V3 in the next couple of weeks. :)

V2 remains available and continues to evolve and improve..........
 
Bill.
Will you be at Inters?
If you will, could you bring a V1 and V2 tip with you? Ive yet to see one in the flesh, Maybe people could compair the "copy" to yours ?
My only problem is... im not sure about spending this amount on a tip then needing to spend even more on another map.
 
Wow some people are really getting hurt by this aren't they!? Sending messages to the company or saying let's give them abuse won't help anything at all. Oh well someone copied Bill's TIP, i'm sure Bill knows the success he's had with his TIP and the large following of people he has, therefore he won't have anything to worry about. If the company has done something very wrong towards Bill's product then he will know when to take legal action. This is how some things work unfortunately, but slating and giving abuse will not help any situation.

I had a V1 TIP on my 8L S3 and saw Bill's progress from the start on his TIP's. Great thought and hard work went into this product, which is why people like me will always respect that and look forward to another clever product from him.

Some people really need to chill out and leave it be.

PS. Hello! Good to see familiar 8L usernames once again, i'll ****** off back to my 8P section now :laugh: :undwech:
 
paul... if you want more power from your k04 get a frigging tip dude.. lol
whoevers.. lol

v1 is'nt available and has'nt been for >year now
V2 is current
V3 is coming very shortly as an ADDITIONAL tip I will offer for K04's, as the lower cost option but with the right pedigree/testing unlike "copies/fakes"

i may or may not be at inters... weather depending.
if i do come up its only sunday and in the lupo to do some 1/4 mile playing.
 
S3 Paul said:
Bill.
Will you be at Inters?
If you will, could you bring a V1 and V2 tip with you? Ive yet to see one in the flesh, Maybe people could compair the "copy" to yours ?
My only problem is... im not sure about spending this amount on a tip then needing to spend even more on another map.
Click to expand...

Similar issues to what's stopping me. I'm already at the limit of what I should be running with standard injectors... So I'd need injectors and a map aswell. While I'm at it I might aswell get the JBS mani that's gathering dust in the garage fitted... while I'm at that I might aswell go for a 2283 hybrid instead of the pretty tame one I've got.

For me it's more of a choice of £0 or £2000 not £99 vs £180 lol.
 
Im about at the same point... new injectors...new pump...new manifold...new TIP ... then a map.
Probably about the same outlay as you.
 
daz-20vt said:
Supporting innovaters is easy to say bill. But do you use these ethics? If phillips invented the dvd player will you only ever buy a phillips dvd player at dou le the price of a samsung? Id love to use you for tuning when i get my car worked on. Because of your honest, decent no strings attached advice.but your simply to far for me to travel. Having said that you will remain popular because of your attitude and enthusiasm. And your attention to perfect detail. Keep focused on that and dont let rip offs get you down. Most of us wont.cant wait to have a b5 tip!!! Daz
Click to expand...

Positive criticism here Daz!
 
Although not a like for like comparison, from my own experience I've owned a Badger5 V1 TIP, and I've seen Creation Motorsports "Upper Boost Hoses" for the LCR/S3 market.

There is no contest with regards to silicone quality and fitment.

If it's too good to be true, it usually is.
 
S3 Andy said:
Similar issues to what's stopping me. I'm already at the limit of what I should be running with standard injectors... So I'd need injectors and a map aswell. While I'm at it I might aswell get the JBS mani that's gathering dust in the garage fitted... while I'm at that I might aswell go for a 2283 hybrid instead of the pretty tame one I've got.

For me it's more of a choice of £0 or £2000 not £99 vs £180 lol.
Click to expand...

port the jbs mani collector before fitting it..
 
Sorry to hear someone copying you design Bill, people are always trying to make things cheaper but really are crap

I'm willing to port any JBS manifold if anyone gets one
 
badger5 said:
Copyright is what I have...... Patent's are massively expensive and in practise to contend such things and register them in the countries is just massively expensive. In practice where things are copied as a matter of practice (china, india etc) they don't acknowledge Patents or IP...

"COPY"right is what they have infringed. blatent immitation of mine. Obvious to see.
country of origin in this instance is no doubt india.. Asian..

you think chinese rips off are poor quality.... indian is far worse in my industrial expeirence. dreadfull.

Its not unexpected, as it clearly has'nt gone unnoticed by many... and inevitably some see a bandwagen to jump on, to make a buck on the back of others hard work... These people have no morals. I hope they are seen for what they are.

onward and upward....

I am sure you will like the new B5 TIP offering (for those who dont already have a B5 tip)
regards
bill
Click to expand...

Mate, if people have any sense, they will see it for what it is; a cheap imitation. I know 90% of people on this site will have read the reviews of yours, and most people that own VAG cars aren't all that "fast and furious" and will know that if they buy the cheap immitation, it'll collapse under it's own uselessness at 5000rpm and cause all kind of problems, then have to buy yours anyway... I know you won't be... But don't worry. Your name is huge on this site alone and we're all behind you.
 
Bill I think you should do them for
copyright! They clearly didn't do their homework when they copied your TIP!
 
dammmm the wife and her poxy holidays she forces me to go on!! i missed all the fun!!!! :( that said........i have a SFS tip so **** u all!!!!! :undwech: lol

sorry kids it had to be done!!!:eiertritt:
 
Had a look at these at inters and wasn't impressed with the quality.The aluminium billet adapter seemed flimsy and the silicone soft,plus he had no interest in doing a deal with me.I've never seen the badger one in the flesh out of a car so can't really compare.

i went down to the forge stand late enough on Sunday and bought 2 and got 100 quid off with a few key rings thrown in :)
 
Ooops I got some dislikes!!! I was only kidding!!! I only got the sfs tip as it was cheaper buying that along with a Jetex filter and having them both posted than buying just the badger5 tip on its own so it was a no brainier for me!!!! Sorry to all u badger 5 die hard fans!! When his prices come down I may use him but until then I'm a sfs man (also get discount there so that always helps!!). Sorry bill and tuffty your both just too far and pricey for my empty wallet!!! :(
 
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