Which fuel pump do I go for Autotech/KMD/APR - S3

mattandrew

mattandrew

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Decided its time I went for the fuel pump for the S3, currently running Revo stage 2 and going for 2+ so need to do the fuel pump and more than likely the clutch next

So its either Autotech or KMD internals or APR full pump

Reading around on various threads/forums i am getting different views on each of the pumps. Spoke to a few tuners/suppliers and each have there opinions, some say KMD is a no no and others say Autotech is a no no

Both Autotech and KMD are readily available so supply isnt an issue.

Which would you say go for? Ive heard mixed reviews on both
 
When i buy a pump im going APR, APR buy a brand new unit they then strip it, rebuild it and test it. alot of people run autotech and kmd internals. The autotech and kmd are not tested prior to fitting so its always a gamble that it will function correctly with no problems IMO its not worth taking a risk with a £28k+ car.

Davie
 
FWIW,mine has the Autotech internals here,and whether fortunate or not,it's been fine for the last 10k miles(now I suppose I have tempted fate!)
 
12,000 miles on my Autotech with no problems - you won't find anyone in the world who has documented a problem with Autotech internals on these engines. It's pure internet puff.
The APR option is a total rip-off in my opinion.
Couldn't comment on KMD but WarrenCox has that option on his car and has had no problems at all as far as I know.
 
i personally know of two guys with autotech internals which have failed. use it, dont use it
 
Autotech was ~ a third of the APR price when I was looking and I could find no evidence of it being any less of a quality product. It's your cash and decision, but the APR suppliers I spoke to were only able to justify the extra cost on it having been tested, not on the basis that it was in anyway better than the other pumps.
 
Definetley go with APR, I went for a brand new unit as it is allready tested and working 100%, its a too expensive car to go with some internals witch are not tested... my APR works great...
 
I have been researching this as well as I will be getting a HPFP sometime in the near future and have mainly been concentrating on the APR and Autotech.

To start with I was sold on the APR pump but now after doing a lot of searching I am not so sure anymore. There really is not any evidence out there proving that the APR pump is any more reliable than the Autotech. I have also found no evidence that it performs any better than the Autotech at maintaining requested rail pressure. The APR marketing blurb may make you think otherwise but talk to the people who actually have these pumps installed and then you will get the real picture.

To me when paying the premium for the APR HPFP the extra you get above an internal upgrade is:
- You get replacement upgraded pump (so that you can easily switch back to the stock HPFP). Remember the APR pumps start off as a stock HPFP just as the internals upgrades do.
- The pump is tested in the factory, however I have heard their testing facility only tests the pumps up to 5 bar so not even close to the 130 bar that a stage 2+ map will be requesting.

So I think it comes down to whether you think the premium on the APR pump is justified for the extras you get. Personally I'm not so sure and the way I look at it is to make sure the pump internals are fitted properly by paying an experienced tuner to fit the Autotech for an hours labour, which is effectively what APR do and charge a very high premium for.
 
yahyar said:
i personally know of two guys with autotech internals which have failed. use it, dont use it
Click to expand...

Who ? Where ? When ?
You can't just say that and leave it there. That's like me saying "I personally know of someone with three heads."
 
I had the autotech on my previous A3 and i have one on the S3 had no probs with it. Cant really see any reason to buy the APR one over it as its basically the same thing your just buying another housing.
 
navnayyar said:
with the autotech its not the pump that fails at high engine revs its the cam follower, autotech are developing this and KMD already have on, basically it allows greater product life to around 20,000km http://www.kmdtuning.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=1426
Click to expand...

This problem is NOT related to the Autotech HPFP or any other uprated HPFP. It is a generic problem on all 2.0 TFSI engines and to that end Audi/VW etc have released a TSB for it. Search the forum, I posted this up a while ago.

All upgraded HPFPs will exert more pressure on the cam follower and hence more wear. Therefore the cam follower should be checked more regularly if you have an uprated hpfp installed. I would recommend checking it at every oil change (10k).

There is NO evidence that points to one upgraded HPFP causing more cam follower wear than any other.
 
Last edited:
KRL said:
This problem is NOT related to the Autotech HPFP or any other uprated HPFP. It is a generic problem on all 2.0 TFSI engines and to that end Audi/VW etc have released a TSB for it. Search the forum, I posted this up a while ago.

All upgraded HPFPs will exert more pressure on the cam follower and hence more wear. Therefore the cam follower should be checked more regularly if you have an uprated hpfp installed. I would recommend checking it at every oil change (10k).

There is NO evidence that points to one upgraded HPFP causing more cam follower wear than any other.
Click to expand...

As KRL has said above there is a TSB out from Audi on this

Heres what Auto tech have to say on the Website

http://www.autotech.com/download/fuelPump.pdf[/url]

IMPORTANT WARNING
AND PREVENTIVE NOTICE
Thank you for purchasing Autotech’s high volume output fuel pump kit for 2.0T VW and
Audi engine applications, our part #10.127.100k.
This kit is designed to provide up to 50% greater fuel volume than the standard factory fuel pump. In order to drive this additional fuel volume under the basic laws of physics it will take up to 50% proportionally more pressure to drive the pump.

The pump is driven by a lobe on the factory intake camshaft which in turn drives the fuel pump piston through a follower. The pressure exerted on the cam lobe can be up to 50% greater than the standard application. Both VW and Audi have issued factory “Technical Service Bulletins” regarding abnormal camshaft wear and failure with the standard stock factory installed fuel pump. Both companies have issued corrective actions which include replacing the factory stock camshaft with a new camshaft that has improved surface hardened fuel pump lobes. The part number for this new camshaft is 06F.109.101B and is available at any VW or Audi dealer.

Before proceeding with the installation of Autotech’s high volume fuel pump kit, it is imperative that the installer check for wear on the existing camshaft and follower. If worn, the camshaft must replaced. If not worn, it will be necessary to identify which camshaft you have in your engine by looking at the part number etched in the cam between the lobes for the number 2 and number 3 cylinders. The old style (less hardened cam) is marked with part #06F.109.101A. Those customers who have the old style cam should strongly consider changing to the new cam part #06F.109.101B.

Regardless of which camshaft you are using, Autotech cannot guarantee that your camshaft’s fuel pump lobe will not experience increased wear leading to a catastrophic failure. All customers who choose to use Autotech’s high volume fuel pump must accept the additional risk of camshaft failure. It is incumbent upon the customer to check for wear of the camshaft and follower on a regular basis and replace those parts as necessary as a preventive measure against future failure. To be able to enjoy the benefits of this part it is necessary for the customer to accept responsibility for wear and tear on other related parts as mentioned above on their vehicle.

Autotech, therefore will not accept any warranty or merchantability claims for camshaft and/or follower failures or any damage as a result of those failures for this product. The customer agrees to accept all risk when using this product.
Click to expand...

Audis Technical bulletin is shown in this PDF on page 7 onwards

This proves that the OEM parts are known to have problems

http://goapr.com/support/fsi_fuelpump_installation.pdf[/url]
 
audi upgrades
navnayyar said:
with the autotech its not the pump that fails at high engine revs its the cam follower
Click to expand...

You make out like this is a regular occurrence. Like I've said a million times before - show me some examples of this happening and owners of Audi S3s suffering "catastrophic failure" and I'll accept it. Until then it's just scaremongering hearsay based on something which might happen sometime someplace (sort of like a meteorite striking your house) but which nobody appears to be able to provide any proof or examples of a single instance.

A certain tuner's marketing tactics are well known and this is the source of much of the scaremongering. Until someone (anyone ?) shows us some evidence of actual instances where this has happened - this is all just ******. You check the lobe every 20,000 miles or so and it's fine. So what ? I know people who have done over 20,000 miles on an Autotech then checked the camlobe and there is nothing to see. I've done over 10,000 miles in mine. Are we just lucky ? Did the meteorite escape us by some sort of miracle - or does the fact that we can provide hard, factual evidence that suggests this is all nonsense but the scaremongers cannot provide a single instance of this happening tell you something.

****** ****** ******.
 
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As I tried to show in my original post in this thread, it is simply a case of separating the facts from the BS and then making your own decision on which pump you want to go for.

Unfortunately some people get taken in by aggressive and clever marketing and do not see the real picture.
 
N8 said:
Iggu = Manchester's finest
Click to expand...

Just trying to look after Matt's interests N8. You know the score.
Matt - any of them will do the job fine. It comes down to price and availability. Then get round here for a brew and a spin up the spur road !
 
Iggu said:
You make out like this is a regular occurrence. Like I've said a million times before - show me some examples of this happening and owners of Audi S3s suffering "catastrophic failure" and I'll accept it.
Click to expand...

http://www.etuners.gr/index.php?s=12&t=14

I happen to know at least 2 more members of greek forums (they may be members here too so they can say something if they want to) that had problems with the follower.
 
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This is by far the most to-the-point answer in my opinion

Chris from Revo said:
You want to run a pump, buy anyone you want. You want it to last a long time.. check the follower frequently.
Click to expand...
 
Great thread and some great REAL facts to counter the rumour mill. Having read a few threads on vwvortex I know exactly what the marketing guys from APR are capable of. Thanks to those who base their posts on facts once again. :thumbsup:
 
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david_phillips95 said:
Interesting Read - Broken Fuel Pump Cam Followers:

http://www.carsinspections.com/gr/technical_presentations/tfsi-camfollower/tom.html

http://www.carsinspections.com/gr/technical_presentations/tfsi-camfollower/fanis.html

Davie
Click to expand...

These are the same as the ones already posted earlier

GConn said:
http://www.etuners.gr/index.php?s=12&t=14
Click to expand...

None of these cases are Audi S3s. One is from a Skoda Octavia and one from a Golf Gti Mk V. The site then goes onto say: "both Fanis' and Tom's cars are by far the most powerful 2.0TFSI BWA engines ever to be tuned in Greece". So who knows what state they are in. Even more crucially, the date of these failures is missing (we all know the cam followers were revised a couple of years ago) but this site then refers the happy reader to a "recent" vwvortex thread which discusses a cam follower failure - the thread is from 2004 !!!

So if events from 6 years ago are described as "recent" we can safely assume that these instances are also ancient and clearly BEFORE the TSB and the subsequent revisions to this part were made by Audi.

Nobody is disputing that cam follower failures were occuring VERY infrequently 5 and 6 years ago. This is why Audi revised the part following the TSB. Matt's car is a 2007 model. Don't scare him with ancient history - it's just not fair, not informed and not right. Show us a recent cam follower failure related to Autotech. Go on - try.

****** ****** ******.
 
Iggu for god's sake. These are facts as you requested, this is the weak spot of our engines, and the 2.0TFSI is the exact same engine. None of the changes on the S3 engine beneficially affects the way the follower is working and its wear. The reason we do not have issues with them it's that they are frequently checked and replaced. The dates I see on e-tuners site is November 09. I really can't see why you cannot accept this issue.

It was replaced with a new one (rev. C) and 5000km after that, it broke.
Click to expand...

Even if you are right and the events took place 6 years back, I don't see what's stopping it from happening to any of us. Even Audi has issued a bulletin, but we can't believe them? Why?

As I said before, I know a greek member with a sprint blue S3 had an issue. Is that still not good enough for you? I can PM you with his user name and forum. Go ahead and ask him. We are discussing known issues here, no one is trying to intimidate Mat. I will probably go for a pump upgrade as well, but these are issues people need to know. If you can't accept this either, we'll agree to disagree.
 
Matt the OP has his answer I think.
 
GConn said:
http://www.etuners.gr/index.php?s=12&t=14

I happen to know at least 2 more members of greek forums (they may be members here too so they can say something if they want to) that had problems with the follower.
Click to expand...

Ok but problems with the cam follower does not mean it was down to a particular pump. Hopefully everybody understands now that cam follower wear is an unfortunate problem we inherit with the 2.0 TFSI.
 
GConn said:
This is by far the most to-the-point answer in my opinion
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Chris from Revo
You want to run a pump, buy anyone you want. You want it to last a long time.. check the follower frequently.
Click to expand...

Agreed
 
david_phillips95 said:
Interesting Read - Broken Fuel Pump Cam Followers:

http://www.carsinspections.com/gr/technical_presentations/tfsi-camfollower/tom.html

http://www.carsinspections.com/gr/technical_presentations/tfsi-camfollower/fanis.html

Davie
Click to expand...

Nice find.

Notice here that we have 1 cam follower failure for the autotech and 1 cam follower failure for the apr.

If anything the cam follower failure for the APR pump was worse because it entirely destroyed the cam follower causing it to be spewed around the engine.

Both these failures could easily have been prevented by frequent checking of the cam follower.
 
Iggu said:
These are the same as the ones already posted earlier



None of these cases are Audi S3s. One is from a Skoda Octavia and one from a Golf Gti Mk V. The site then goes onto say: "both Fanis' and Tom's cars are by far the most powerful 2.0TFSI BWA engines ever to be tuned in Greece". So who knows what state they are in. Even more crucially, the date of these failures is missing (we all know the cam followers were revised a couple of years ago) but this site then refers the happy reader to a "recent" vwvortex thread which discusses a cam follower failure - the thread is from 2004 !!!

So if events from 6 years ago are described as "recent" we can safely assume that these instances are also ancient and clearly BEFORE the TSB and the subsequent revisions to this part were made by Audi.

Nobody is disputing that cam follower failures were occuring VERY infrequently 5 and 6 years ago. This is why Audi revised the part following the TSB. Matt's car is a 2007 model. Don't scare him with ancient history - it's just not fair, not informed and not right. Show us a recent cam follower failure related to Autotech. Go on - try.

****** ****** ******.
Click to expand...

In the UK cam follower failures do seem to be very rare. However in the US they are a much more common and hence get posted about a lot on the web.

In the UK we use long life oils for our 2.0 TFSIs = 5w 30. In the US they don't, they use crappy 0w 40 oils and I think this is probably the most likely reason they experience more failures than we do.
 
GConn said:
Iggu for god's sake. These are facts as you requested, this is the weak spot of our engines, and the 2.0TFSI is the exact same engine. None of the changes on the S3 engine beneficially affects the way the follower is working and its wear. The reason we do not have issues with them it's that they are frequently checked and replaced. The dates I see on e-tuners site is November 09. I really can't see why you cannot accept this issue.



Even if you are right and the events took place 6 years back, I don't see what's stopping it from happening to any of us. Even Audi has issued a bulletin, but we can't believe them? Why?

As I said before, I know a greek member with a sprint blue S3 had an issue. Is that still not good enough for you? I can PM you with his user name and forum. Go ahead and ask him. We are discussing known issues here, no one is trying to intimidate Mat. I will probably go for a pump upgrade as well, but these are issues people need to know. If you can't accept this either, we'll agree to disagree.
Click to expand...

True. The fact is that the cam followers will wear and eventually will fail so will need to be checked frequently. No uprated HPFP is proven to be any better or worse than another when it comes to looking at this.
 
like i said, use it, dont use it

no need to get your panties in a knot

Mattandrew: in the two cases of autotech failure both of the pumps ceased. not the cam followers. maybe its down to improper installation? I didn't get the 3rd degree on it but in the short amount of time both of them were installed till failure, I assume it's unlikely for the cam follower to have worn out.
both issues were resolved by replacing the fuel pump.
 
Last edited:
Ok lads and lasses thaanks for all your replies and input

I took the plunge today and went for the Autotech internals, supplied and fitted by Statller in Sheffield

My Sept 2007 S3 has done 45,000 miles, Steve said before he even stripped my pump that he thought the cam follower would show signs of slight wear and guess what he was correct. The cam follower was only very very slightly worn, we also looked at the cam and this was also very slightly worn. Steve thought he had a cam follower in stock but it turned out he didnt. I ordered one today and it will be delivered tomorrow and ill fit myself.

Ill get some pics up when i fit the new one. Steve said to check the cam follower every so often. He said the cam wasent worn bad enough (remember still talkin of wear from the oem fuel pump) for audi to replace under warrenty, so I am going to run for 10k more and check the cam and then send into Audi to see what they say.
 
one big help is to warm the car up properly and use slick 50.... cooling down is important but not as important for this item... Since I put the additive in my oil the cold engine performance is beautiful... meaning I can drive the car around reasonably without feeling like the car is being damaged or something... this part is very friction relevant. Stock fp or hpfp Slick 50 is good for all. With the hpfp if you dont warm up its tempting a Slick 69 at the dealers at some point!
 
I personally have seen around 10 follower failures, and 5 needed new cams on the fsi engines. I have replaced another 10 or so followers that were showing signs of wear. Ive fitted autotech and kmd pumps but just sell kmd pumps now. We stopped doing the autotech pumps as the follower failures were only with those pumps and within 500 miles of use. Since sticking with the kmds we have seen no issues and all the cars are periodically checked. I cannot say for certain that the autotech pumps or the followers were at fault, but until we get a failure with a kmd pump then thats what we sell.

We have kmds uprated followers on there way over to try and I will give some feedback on them once they have been used for a while.

The best thing is to just check your follower from time to time and replace as soon as there are any marks on it. £20 for a std follower or £300 for a new cam!

Alex@BDM
 
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