FMIC

Status
Not open for further replies.
S3 Paul said:
S3 kev
Yes i am still running the standard side mounts and boy do i need to sort that out. The drop off in power was daft!

With regards the welds.
The coolers ive suplied to people are tested before they leave the factory so i trust the welds, Never had a come back yet, I know a nice looking weld is always going to be more reasureing but a good strong weld isnt always pretty is it? I will take a picture of one i have laying around here... see if its that bad people would rather pay £700 than £75 for one.
Click to expand...

I'd be very interested if you sold the full set up ready to just drop in
 
ChriS3 said:
Where/how were you measuring your boost levels? If anything, I'd expect to see a pressure drop with fitting a bigger intercooler.
Click to expand...
i have an in car boost gauge which i belive should be fairly accurate as its made by stack
 
voorhees said:
if you are supplying crash bar,hoses,IC,pipes,jubilee clips for £75 I'll have one mate
Click to expand...

Obviously if i go ahead and make a full kit, It will include more parts than the intercooler so will cost more,
But no way will it make it to anything even nearly like the forge price,

A crash rail is £32 the pipe work i will be having made up by a friend of mine so when i get round to spending the time with my car in bits i will work out a price to suply .

I feel you was having a dig but maybe im wrong?
 
S3 Paul said:
Obviously if i go ahead and make a full kit, It will include more parts than the intercooler so will cost more,
But no way will it make it to anything even nearly like the forge price,
Click to expand...

What core are you using and have you got a picture of the intercooler?
 
S3 Paul said:
Obviously if i go ahead and make a full kit, It will include more parts than the intercooler so will cost more,
But no way will it make it to anything even nearly like the forge price,

A crash rail is £32 the pipe work i will be having made up by a friend of mine so when i get round to spending the time with my car in bits i will work out a price to supply .

I feel you was having a dig but maybe im wrong?
Click to expand...

If you can supply the parts for a "plug n play" installation for around the £300 mark Id be VERY interested. I couldn't care less if the welds were done by virgin nuns on some distant mountain top or by a fat bloke in a shed, as long as they hold, Id be happy.

Thanks mate.
 
audi upgrades
S3 Paul said:
I feel you was having a dig but maybe im wrong?
Click to expand...

you say that Forge IC's aren'tyou put your £75 version against a £700 Forge one even though its £780 for the full kit?


Oh and BTW if your intercoolers are sooo good how come you haven't got one (or two at that price!) on your car even though you have upgraded the turbo:whistle2:
 
Right... did you read my post???
I havent fitted on to the audi as i havent had the time to take the car apart and off the road while i make up a kit.
Why havent i got 2 ? erm... i will not bother with that one,
PROVE to me that a forge intercooler works better in the real world than one i could suply... i will eat my words and hacksaw mine in half.
I dont get why you want to argue??
 
Paying more doesnt always mean better.I think i could make a better end tank design than that forge effort with my eyes closed.Welds would look crap but the flow would be balanced across the whole core.
 
S3 Paul said:
Right... did you read my post???
I havent fitted on to the audi as i havent had the time to take the car apart and off the road while i make up a kit.
Why havent i got 2 ? erm... i will not bother with that one,
PROVE to me that a forge intercooler works better in the real world than one i could suply... i will eat my words and hacksaw mine in half.
I dont get why you want to argue??
Click to expand...

1. 2 hours to fit one so thats no excuse.
2. why haven't you got two is humour which you obviously haven't got.
3. your the one saying that Forge were not 'effective' so you PROVE it.
 
voorhees said:
1. 2 hours to fit one so thats no excuse.
2. why haven't you got two is humour which you obviously haven't got.
3. your the one saying that Forge were not 'effective' so you PROVE it.
Click to expand...

Apologies for jumping in here, but I started the thread so I can do what I want!!!

Anyway, voorhees, are you saying that the Forge IC would be better (better=more effective) than one of S3-Paul's ICs?
 
vetch said:
Anyway, voorhees, are you saying that the Forge IC would be better (better=more effective) than one of S3-Paul's ICs?
Click to expand...

No I have not said anything good or bad about Pauls ICs but I have slated the welds on the ebay ones ;),the other ICs probably do the job at a budget price so they fit a niche.
Also I'd like to add how many on here would be ordering a forge if they could get it say a third off?

The only reason I have took offence to comments by Paul is that there seems to be no evidence to back up his claim of the Forge one not being effective,this kind of comment I see frequently on here regarding different things and frankly it ****** me off.
 
To be fair to S3_Paul, he didn't say that the Forge IC wasn't effective, he said it didnt look that effective; and reading between the lines I would hazard a guess that he meant that they didnt look that effective compared to his £75 version. If Ive got that wrong S3_Paul, I apologise and feel free to correct me. Which is fair enough. Forge dont provide any evidence that their ICs are better than the cheaper ones either?
 
Having a "pop" at me ****'s me off.
Me coment regarding the forge item is based on...
the end tank design giving uneven air flow over the core
the amount of near or 90 degree bends in the pipe work, Every 90 does reduce the air flow.
I know they probably did this to keep the fog lights but i think there is another way around it,
As for it taking 2 hour to fit an intercooler.... your more than welcome to come and show me this, I mean mine would be a custom set up with all the pipes being documented once the trial fitment had been carryed out, This is the time consuming part,
Seen as you love forge soooo much i will use them as an example, do you think they made a cooler, and within 2 hours had a fully marketable kit for sale?
NO,They like me would have tryed a number of ways and then gone for what they felt worked the best,

Now im sure you will have a reply, however i dont see where im wrong here, Im not out to slate forge, i simply dont see how they can justify the masive cost of their kit without a direct comparison to other "cheap" intercoolers, If they are as sure of its outstanding performance and with their massive budget they could simply use a car ( i would be happy to use mine) to prove their kit is worth more than twice what i think it is,
 
Meh, nothing wrong with the Forge FMIC. Works perfect, good quality kit, and the crash bar is well modded. I never lost power, never gained power - not sure how relevent your comments are about restrictive pipework?
 
ChriS3 said:
not sure how relevent your comments are about restrictive pipework?
Click to expand...

In my opinion...not very, on an S3.

My FMIC had a fair few 90 degree bends, and it worked and worked well.
In all honesty, I can't see any one being much better than any other...the K04 (speaking about K04'd cars here) is a heat pump by the time you re-map it anyway...so ANY form of FMIC is going to help.

And once you get up to 1.6-1.8 bar peak, the restriction on pipework caused by 90 degree bends really doesn't equate to a problem as the K04 struggles to provide enough volume to fill the cylinders at anything over 1.2 bar by the rev-cut anyway...and any drop in pressure by the time the charge air gets to the inlet manifold is countered by the MAP sensor being right by the inlet manifold, so the ECU just asks for more boost to make up.

In my mind...theory accepted, on a K04 S3, as long as you have a large enough surface area in the breeze, routing, bends and end tank design are pretty much irrelevant.
You may see a couple of degrees difference...but a few degrees in a drop of 60-70 degrees?
I'm not going to get bent out of shape over that.


Mine worked just fine...with 3 90 degree bends and a 45 degree bend, and could cool 80-90 degree air to 20 ish degrees with little fuss.
 
Ess_Three said:
In my mind...theory accepted, on a K04 S3, as long as you have a large enough surface area in the breeze, routing, bends and end tank design are pretty much irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Routing, bends and end tank design are pretty much irrelevant,i would beg to differ.
Take the forge item for example,looking at the end tank design wouldnt most of the flow be at the top of the core whilst the passing airflow is at the bottom?

Personally i think the forge item is all bling,could be easily improved.
 
james0808 said:
Routing, bends and end tank design are pretty much irrelevant,i would beg to differ.
Take the forge item for example,looking at the end tank design wouldnt most of the flow be at the top of the core whilst the passing airflow is at the bottom?
Click to expand...

Maybe so.
But if it will cool charge air from 80+ degrees, down to 20ish degrees on a 14-18 degree ambient day...does it really matter where the flow is going?

My point was, in reality, no it doesn't.


With regard to heat exchanger principle and flow, the fluid will take the easiest path first...so depending on which way it mounts, either the top, or the bottom (mine was mounted with in/outs at the bottom) but since there is pressure involved it will then even out flow accross the core. This is the same theory for ALL heat exchangers...so the difference accross the core will likely be a couple degrees at worst.

In a temperature drop of 60+ degrees?
It's not going to matter.

Of course, if the inlet/outlet are at the bottom (not sure which way it is on a Forge unit) and the top of the IC is sitting behind the crash bar/bumper skin...then it's the bit that it potentially doing less work that's covered anyway...so you will get equal cooling accross the surface area, as the preffered route (if it exists) for the hot air will be low down inlet-exit...right in the airstream.

In reality...I can't imagine it makes an ounce of difference.
 
So... to recap, I have no problems with the forge set up or company as a whole, My only point is that alot of people report good results with cheaper intercoolers, and i beleive with the forge item too, I will not how ever pay the price for a forge item, I just cant justify it to myself, I will be trying my best to sort a good set up using an intercooler i can get from my suplier and then have pipework made up to suit and keep the foglights, ,
With regards to the tight bends and end tank designs... i have read a number of times that in general these do matter so i will be trying to work by these "rules of thumb"
 
james0808 said:
Routing, bends and end tank design are pretty much irrelevant,i would beg to differ.
Take the forge item for example,looking at the end tank design wouldnt most of the flow be at the top of the core whilst the passing airflow is at the bottom?

Personally i think the forge item is all bling,could be easily improved.
Click to expand...


Routing and bends make no difference to the power so why place more relevence on them? Other than aestetics, I couldn't see any benefit in changing the pipework. End tank design is fine; you have a pressurised system and the air should follow the path of least resistance, ensuring the whole FMIC is pressure equalised.

How would you improve the Forge one, and what exactly would you expect? Not sure I understand your comments about it being all bling.




Edit: Just noticed that I basically just repeated Glen's comments :(
 
Ess_Three said:
With regard to heat exchanger principle and flow, the fluid will take the easiest path first...
Click to expand...

Very true,but with good end tank design its possible to diffuse(slow)the air so it can spread more across the whole core and then the nozzle(outlet) will speed it up again,instead of hitting a brick wall like this.
Photo0268.jpg

Lots of air scrabbling around for the next easiest route,not good.
Here is a pic of a good end tank design off a nissan r33gtr
gtr.jpg

A bit different to the forge effort.

Ess_Three said:
In reality...I can't imagine it makes an ounce of difference.
Click to expand...

In reality...It does.
 
ChriS3 said:
End tank design is fine; you have a pressurised system and the air should follow the path of least resistance, ensuring the whole FMIC is pressure equalised.
Click to expand...

Very good but arent we talking about a balanced flow not pressure.There is a difference.

ChriS3 said:
Routing and bends make no difference to the power so why place more relevence on them?
Click to expand...

Loss coefficients.
If you dont know,and by your reply i would say you dont,Google is your friend.
 
audi upgrades
ChriS3 said:
I understand what you're talking about, but seriously, we're talking about K04'd S3's here.
Click to expand...

Yeah i know,might help though if someone is looking at fitting a fmic on a budget or diy install.
 
This is my point exactly !
ALL of the principles that aply to ALL intercoolers should if possible be considered for ANY aplication.
Any help is help yes? the best system you can get / make for your money is all our goal?
Dismissing the K04 as a lost cause is strange. because it is small it will work like a heat pump above stock boost, We all know this but... we all remap them upto their limits.
Getting the air heated by a turbo outside its thermal efficency as cool as possible before it enters the engine and minimal restriction to the flow is what is needed??
 
S3 Paul said:
This is my point exactly !
ALL of the principles that aply to ALL intercoolers should if possible be considered for ANY aplication.
Any help is help yes? the best system you can get / make for your money is all our goal?
Click to expand...

True.


Dismissing the K04 as a lost cause is strange. because it is small it will work like a heat pump above stock boost, We all know this but... we all remap them upto their limits.
Getting the air heated by a turbo outside its thermal efficency as cool as possible before it enters the engine and minimal restriction to the flow is what is needed??
Click to expand...

The point i'm trying to make was that my IC was probably horridly inefficient by the 'best' rule of thumb.
90 degree bends, unequal flow end cans...even made by Forge so possibly not the most efficient core.

Did it matter?
Not a jot.

It was fitted to a car running 1.4 bar peak and seeing 75 degrees post std ICs...and was finally cooling 1.89 bar peak down to mid 20 degrees, road or dyno.

I'm not suggesting it was the most efficient...nor the best available. What I am saying is that there is proof that despite it's failings, it worked.

Maybe you could have lost another 2-3 degrees by optimisin the design...maybe not.

Either way, the biggest chunk of work was done and by the time the charge is down at 20 ish degrees, the difference in a few degrees inlet charge temperature makes to power is so small that you'd be hard pushed to measure it.

For me, the whole point is that on a re-mapped K04 S3, adding some form of FMIC is better than nothing.
There will always be people that go to the fine end of a fart to get the nth fraction of a degree cooler...but in reality, it makes little difference, once you knock the majority of the heat out of the charge air.

I quantify this comment by adding that after fitting my FMIC, which I ran as the second of 2 inline ICs (standard drivers SMIC then FMIC) I chose to upgrade the drivers SMIC.
I had Forge make me a modified Golf 4 SMIC to replace the standard drivers SMIC in my set-up...and it did very little to the charge air temperature when the system was measured as a whole - maybe a few degrees at best.

So for all my FMIC may not have been especially efficient, pre-cooling the charge air and giving it less work to do (surely the same as replacing both ICs with a more efficient single FMIC?) gave a further temperature drop of only a couple more degrees...and a power gain (or stopped a power loss, depending on your take on what ICs do) of nothing.
Not a single BHP - within the tolerance of the dyno obviously.


So, in my opinion, based on what I found...it really doesn't make much difference in reality.
 
Ess did you measure the pressure drop across the cores?
Inlet of first intercooler to outlet on second intercooler.
Just curious to see the results.
 
After asking for a few details about your set up, I read a couple of times the phrase "lead lag" i think it was, and how using the drivers side SMIC along with a FMIC would give this, But i havent been able to find what exactly this means and why i would want it...Could you please help?


If as they say people on here would be intrested in a set up at a lower cost to the forge item i will try over the next couple of weeks to look at trying a few ideas,
One for you bright sparks out there haha... Is the size of the forge cooler a "good size" or simply the easy option for fitment? I looked at some intercoolers with the inlet and outlet in the middle of the end tanks ( to aid flow i beleive) but am unsure if there realy is enough room behind there to fit a bigger or center in/outlet type.
 
james0808 said:
Ess did you measure the pressure drop across the cores?
Inlet of first intercooler to outlet on second intercooler.
Just curious to see the results.
Click to expand...

No, I didn't James.
All I used was the total pressure by the MAP sensor up to the point at which it saturates...then it was calibrated dyno transducer only.

I couldn't see an easy way of getting pressure measurements...and to be honest, wasn't too worried.
I didn't loose any pressure at the MAP sensor from fitting either, although being super critical, it maybe added a bit of lag...but mine was such an aggressive torque delivery anyway it was hard to tell.

I only really looked at temperatures and how they were affecting timing.
 
S3 Paul said:
After asking for a few details about your set up, I read a couple of times the phrase "lead lag" i think it was, and how using the drivers side SMIC along with a FMIC would give this, But i havent been able to find what exactly this means and why i would want it...Could you please help?
Click to expand...

Lead-Lag is maybe a bad term...it's an industry term we use at work so I was probably just being lazy referring to it like that.
Maybe pre-cooler, cooler?

Basically, I was using the SMIC as a cooler to do some work, then using the bigger surface area of the FMIC to drop the rest.

The SMICs are actually in good places, relatively high pressure and lots of air flow...so I used the standard SMIC to take the first chunk of heat out of the charge air, which gave the FMIC less work to do.

I then changed the std SMIC to a deep, higher capacity Forge unit to see if it would make much difference...it didn't really.

Why would you want it?
You wouldn't specifically.

My FMIC wasn't the biggest, as I wasn't prepared to loose foglights or cut the crash bar...and there was always a thought that it was actually slightly undersized...so trying the uprated SMIC would give me a change to try something different.

Maybe, in the set up I had, the std SMIC was doing more work than people think...maybe they are more efficient than we give them credit for...or maybe the FMIC was just big enough to be effective and none of the design failings really mattered on a K04'd S3?


One for you bright sparks out there haha... Is the size of the forge cooler a "good size" or simply the easy option for fitment? I looked at some intercoolers with the inlet and outlet in the middle of the end tanks ( to aid flow i beleive) but am unsure if there realy is enough room behind there to fit a bigger or center in/outlet type.
Click to expand...

I looked into different designs and couldn't see how a FMIC significantly different in shape could be mounted whilst keeping things like the towing eye facility, foglights, standard grilles on the bumper etc....mine had to have the inside of the bumper trimmed to suit the FMIC I had, as it was.


In all honesty...I really can't see the sense if getting bent out of shape over the design...if you can come up with a kit that will fit easily, with bottom in/out and the (potential) compromises it brings, prove it drops the inlet charge significantly and sell it at a decent price, I suggest it's worth buying - compromises and all.

Or, make a kit that utilises the standard drivers SMIC in series...that's proven to work too. My fear was that it would blow the end cams off the plastic SMICs...but even at 1.85+ bar they were fine.

The bottom line for me, is finding something that fits behind the standard bumper without distorting the shape of the bumper skin, doesn't have silly polished pipes on show, doesn't need the removal of the foglights and drops the inlet charge down effectively.

I really couldn't give a toss if it's not a particularly good design, or not deemed 'perfect' as long as it's proven to work.

If you can do that, at a fraction of the price of the alternatives, I'd suggest everyone with an S3 buys one.


Oh, can you have it anodised black too?
Stealth / anti-bling. It's the future. :moa:
 
S3 Paul said:
Is the size of the forge cooler a "good size" or simply the easy option for fitment? type.
Click to expand...

Its a good size if you want to brag to your mates in a clarkson voice" Look at the size of my intercooler,Its Huge".

I would go for a core that is big enough for the power output required any bigger is just for show.A nicely flowing designed system(pipes too) with a low pressure drop will work well.Lets say you was after 20 psi manifold pressure(just random numbers here) and your huge intercooler and pipes lost 9psi your turbo needs to produce 29psi and that air would be very hot by the time it gets to the core.
Now a better designed system with a lower pressure drop might make 20 psi manifold pressure with the turbo only needing to produce 24psi,so that charge air is already alot cooler so a smaller core would be sufficient.
Again these are just random figures.
 
Shame Ive got the mot and big service this month...tempting.
 
vetch said:
I'm preparing to be shot down here, but I cannot believe that even with the big discount, the Forge item is over 3 times more effective than this item http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=220406112980

And before you all say it, they do provide a larger intercooler for not much more.
Click to expand...

I noticed in the add it says "upto 500 bhp"
I would ask them what power this supports on a K04 S3 and what the pressure drop is?
Pipes look ok but ask what od the pipework is hot and cold side?
 
Ive checked, they supply piping for the S3. Same price. Larger cooler is £20 extra. It sounds like I'm affiliated with the ebay seller, but I'm not, Ive just looked into it.
 
i'll prob get abused here but i've said it before and i'll say it again i can get a FMIC made up to for these for half the price and also the company would guarentee there product will give the best results... i am currently getting them to spec me one for my TDI. They do all my work on my cossie and as wll as being very good friends of mine, are renowned for being the best and being asked by people like prodrive + ralliart to make there products....

The company is AH FABRICATION.

these cheap ebay ones may be ok yes but there results will be mildly beter than std in most cases they wont be using the best cores hence the prices.

AH constantly get these cheap coolers sent to them with customers saying can you make this but better... I mean companies like AIRTEC they produce not bad products actually BUT they weigh a ton and there not THE BEST. I'd sooner buy a product from someone like AH for say £100 more than a ebay jobby and know i am getting the best and fit and forget...

just my 2pence worth

Ad

AND also i guarentee that ebay item quoed wont handle 500hp i can tell it straight away just by the picture!:whistle2:
 
Iv been looking at these for the past few weeks

But from reading this thread would i be correct in saying

My car is only 250bhp

I dont live in spain

and i dont go on tracks

so would it be a waist of 700 quid

tho they do look nice:yahoo:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

H
FMIC
Replies
10
Views
984
<tuffty/>
<tuffty/>
SamHendry
FMIC
Replies
22
Views
3K
mark_S3
mark_S3
G
Fmic
Replies
8
Views
743
16Klappe
16Klappe
P
fmic
Replies
10
Views
1K
pthackeray22
P
Alais DJA
FMIC
Replies
26
Views
2K
Prawn
Prawn
Top
Back