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Thread: K03s fitted

  1. #1
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    K03s fitted

    First off, I need to extend my gratitude to NickEvelry without whom doing this work would have been impossible as you need a trained ferret and 15 hands to do this changeover. Or a Nick. Either it seems.

    And also Jampublic, who's offhand suggestion of "just remove the whole exhaust" made many more things possible.

    And finally my mate Paul, who is a VW technician and a genius, and the mastermind in the whole thing and the only reason its finished.

    For those of you who don't know, the K03s is a turbo with Audi A3 housing but Audi S3 internals, so it sits in the middle, producing a reliable maximum of 240Bhp, 250ft.lbs of torque.

    Its a 'direct' fitment to the standard K03 manifold on the A3 series cars.

    So, last Friday I started to remove the old turbo, disconnecting vacuum pipes, TIP, oil lines, coolant lines etc.

    It then took pretty much all of saturday to free up and remove the old turbo, which is showing signs of running lean, so its a good job I'm having another remap.

    Then Nick, Jampublic and I spent several hours squinting and not being able to reconnect the coolant line on the new turbo.

    Both Nick and I suffered coolant burns, fibreglass rash and coolant in the eye.

    I also look like I self harm, I'm covered in that many cuts.

    Anyway, the upshot of it all is the K03s was finished tonight, what a difference!!

    Bear in mind I took this opportunity to replace a load of vacuum lines and fit a Forge TIP but the difference is immense and this is without remap.

    Its like going to a Naturally Aspirated car, the throttle response is instant, there is so little turbo lag its barely noticable.

    The car is also a good deal faster.

    The Forge TIP does make a weird noise though, it makes the turbo spooling sound different, like wind rushing through a pipe, which is yes, essentially what it is.

    Pictures of the downpipe to follow, I'm not sure what size downpipe is on the S3, but the A3 2" downpipe is cack. It looks like a drinking straw placed next to my new 3" deCat pipe.

    Here are the TIP's, far left the Forge, then the standard K03s and then the K03. Interestingly, I think the K03 looks less restrictive than the K03s TIP but apparently not so.


    Here it is in the engine bay, bit dirty....



    Next week I am not at work, so VR6 Clutch to be fitted and the DeCat pipe is to be installed, and if it arrives from the USA in time, FMIC!
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

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  3. #2
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    my ko3 tip looks nothing like the one on the right in your pic!

  4. #3
    Bellic's Avatar
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    why wouldnt the coolant lines connect? did you use new washers or the old ones?
    Last edited by Bellic; 11th July 2007 at 23:06.

  5. #4
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    well done!

    nothing like getting your hands dirty

    also, if you really wanna look like you self harm... try changing the heater resistor pack on a Corsa B - I had some very dodgy looks, even from family!
    - Andrew

  6. #5
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    He he, ah yes I remember my experience well!!

    I did it on my own for the most part. Removing the old turbo was no problem. Just took a bit of wangling to get past the mani.

    Installing the new one was a ***** though!! I put one coolant line on before dropping it in, and put the rest on when in position. Thing is, as I found out in stages was, it gets progressively tighter with each line you connect!! Oh and the WASHERS!!!! The absolute bane of the entire job!!

    First I dropped one into the exhaust side of the turbo cos i didn't tape the holes up, cue removing turbo and refitting, then with all holes masked, dropped it again only this time couldn't find it cos it didn't come out the bottom. Got under and had a look where it could be, and saw this gaping hole where I could see the back of the flywheel!! NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

    After sleeping on it, I found it lodged where the bracket bolts to the engine and was jumping around like Gollum with The Ring!! Sooooo happy!!

    110% worth it though! Every time I plant the pedal, it all comes back to me!! LOL

    Respect for DIY-ing it! I'd happily do it again!!!

  7. #6
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    I ended up removing the old wastgate via Dremel to remove the old turbo.

    The washers were an issue, although a blob of grease works wonders, I actually re-used some of the old washers as they were copper, and the new washers are very thin stainless steel.

    Working on the basis that a thick copper washer was less likely to leak.

    I'd happily never EVER do it again, it was a right PITA!

    it'll be worth it once the FMIC is installed and I am pushing 220Bhp per tonne!
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    The washers were an issue, although a blob of grease works wonders, I actually re-used some of the old washers as they were copper, and the new washers are very thin stainless steel.

    Working on the basis that a thick copper washer was less likely to leak.
    They are crush washers and Audi said to me they cannot be reused. Which I found to my cost after one mysteriously disappeared and I had to reuse one. Found a leak dripping from the sump plug, and guess where it was coming from.

    Cue another weekend on cursing at the bloody thing!!

    Keep an eye on your driveway, and coolant level.

  9. #8
    golf's Avatar
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    I was always under the impression that once you fit a different turbo, you need to change the ECU mapping to get the most out of it.

    I'll be having a gander on eBay to see if anyone's selling a KO3s.

  10. #9
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    You DO have to change the ECU mapping, however, there's no point doing this until I have fitted the FMIC and taken out the catalytic converter.

    As its a diffeent turbo responding to the current map does produce different results, in this case a faster spool up and better delivery of power.

    What I have noticed in the short time I've been driving it is the heat produced from the engine bay is more in line with the S3 as opposed to the cooler operating temperature of the A3.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  11. #10
    golf's Avatar
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    Have you logged your IAT's? Recently I can feel the the engine in my A4 being really warm after a normal drive. If it rains, some steam can be seen on top of the bonnet.

    Also, how come you decided against a KO4 turbo and opted for a KO3s? The low rev throttle response is excellent with a KO4. I'm currently undecided between the two.

  12. #11
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    I'm still waiting for a running in period, checking pipes stay attached, the engine runs fine.

    I'm just logging oil pressure, coolant temp and engine temp at the moment, to ensure the correct flow of fluids.

    After its been on a 100 miles or so I'll log airflow and the actual turbo operation.

    I went K03s as I didnt want the hassle of bending and re-running oil and coolant lines (the 'in' side of oil and coolant lines are rigid pipes) and I also had no intention of changing the manifold, which is necessary for the K04.

    Also, comparatively speaking, as I'm going for medium power, the K03s was a way better option, in terms of fitment, and power delivery. The K04 mapped isnt a great deal more than a properly mapped K03s (240Bhp to 280Bhp), and with the K03s, I saved a lot of money not having to buy new manifolds and downpipes etc.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    I'm still waiting for a running in period, checking pipes stay attached, the engine runs fine.

    I'm just logging oil pressure, coolant temp and engine temp at the moment, to ensure the correct flow of fluids.

    After its been on a 100 miles or so I'll log airflow and the actual turbo operation.

    I went K03s as I didnt want the hassle of bending and re-running oil and coolant lines (the 'in' side of oil and coolant lines are rigid pipes) and I also had no intention of changing the manifold, which is necessary for the K04.

    Also, comparatively speaking, as I'm going for medium power, the K03s was a way better option, in terms of fitment, and power delivery. The K04 mapped isnt a great deal more than a properly mapped K03s (240Bhp to 280Bhp), and with the K03s, I saved a lot of money not having to buy new manifolds and downpipes etc.
    Just cautionary, I wouldn't go over 3.5-4krpm when you do an airflow log. The K03s moves much more air, and you'll be running it quite a bit lean. Up to you of course!

  14. #13
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    Well done Dave, I know how glad you must be to get that finished!

    How is that 2 hour train journey in the morning going!

    Dave & Nick the self harmer's ha ha funny! Dave have you heard anything from Nick regarding his bumper antic's!

    Thanks to Dave & Nick for letting me take their cars apart to get mine running smoothly!
    J


  15. #14
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Nicks bumper I have only seen here:



    Leon Cupra splitter fitted, I think he used 42 screws in the end, plus some silicone sealant for good measure.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  16. #15
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    If anyone does want anything for a ko4 turbo (not including the turbo!) ive got it all for dirt cheep!

    Xbox online id - supaed133

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    I'm still waiting for a running in period, checking pipes stay attached, the engine runs fine.

    I'm just logging oil pressure, coolant temp and engine temp at the moment, to ensure the correct flow of fluids.

    After its been on a 100 miles or so I'll log airflow and the actual turbo operation.

    I went K03s as I didnt want the hassle of bending and re-running oil and coolant lines (the 'in' side of oil and coolant lines are rigid pipes) and I also had no intention of changing the manifold, which is necessary for the K04.

    Also, comparatively speaking, as I'm going for medium power, the K03s was a way better option, in terms of fitment, and power delivery. The K04 mapped isnt a great deal more than a properly mapped K03s (240Bhp to 280Bhp), and with the K03s, I saved a lot of money not having to buy new manifolds and downpipes etc.
    Which mods would you need to reach 280 bhp with a k03s?

    K03s turbo
    FMIC
    3" DP
    a really good remap
    4bar FPR and new inyectors (perhap s3's)?

    I'm looking to some of these bhp numbers, i'm also looking at the GT28r eliminator kit, where you don't have to buy a new mani fold, and everything should be "easy" to install, and some tuners around told me that with that kit i could push to some good 320 hp, has anyone ever done something like this?

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Vzla
    Which mods would you need to reach 280 bhp with a k03s?

    K03s turbo
    FMIC
    3" DP
    a really good remap
    4bar FPR and new inyectors (perhap s3's)?

    I'm looking to some of these bhp numbers, i'm also looking at the GT28r eliminator kit, where you don't have to buy a new mani fold, and everything should be "easy" to install, and some tuners around told me that with that kit i could push to some good 320 hp, has anyone ever done something like this?
    You will NOT get 280 with a K03s. It just doesn't flow enough air.

    An FMIC will only give marginal power gains (if any at all), mainly just holding the power you've got through the heat.

    I know of MkIV Golfs with GT28RS's on that are pushing 320ish, so def possible! $$$ though!!

  19. #18
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    A k03s producing 280Bhp would require Harry Potter, or a similarly skilled magician.

    Look at an ATP Eliminator instead.

    www.atpturbo.com
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  20. #19
    Bellic's Avatar
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    how long can you run a k03s on standard map for?

  21. #20
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    might sound a bit stupid here but what turbo comes standard on an s3 i thought it was a ko4 and if so why are people fitting a k03

  22. #21
    Bellic's Avatar
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    s3 have k04 , early a3 have k03 and later k03s which is gives better peformance than k03 , too many bit too change to fit the k04 on an a3 ,

  23. #22
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    k03s maxes out at around 250bhp , jabba are the boys for mapping k03s s as they always seem to get good results , my mate just had his cupra mapped he got 252bhp , not bad , and the car goes really well as well

  24. #23
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Jabbas rolling road is widly innacurate though, its famous for reading too high.

    There work is good though, thats for sure, but don't trust their rollers.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    Nicks bumper I have only seen here:



    Leon Cupra splitter fitted, I think he used 42 screws in the end, plus some silicone sealant for good measure.
    Really that many, when I left I though it was a new record of 16 screws! Nick has taken it to the next level, 42 screws... Well done Nick
    J


  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    Jabbas rolling road is widly innacurate though, its famous for reading too high.

    There work is good though, thats for sure, but don't trust their rollers.
    That's what everyone said until on ukmkivs rr day, the "rsgolf" jabba k03sport car went and made exactly the same hp on Awesome's RR! Over 250hp IIRC and that was about 2 years ago. Beat all K03cars on the day including some on race fuel.

    Mine k03s on AGU made 239.

    I think 240 is about the limit withot being really lucky and spending a fortune. Mine came in at about 1500 all done, with full miltek, brand new k03 sport and remap, fitted at jabba.

    For those that think, however, that a k03 sport is as good as a K04 ala s3 etc, sorry, but dream on, it is very much inbetween a stock k03 and a k04.

    Still not to be sniffed at, but a remapped k04 car will see if off just on torque alone.

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jampublic
    Really that many, when I left I though it was a new record of 16 screws! Nick has taken it to the next level, 42 screws... Well done Nick
    His car always sat high at the front so it was the only way he could get his ride height right!!

  28. #27
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Interesting, as since people are STILL finding Jabba is regularly 10Bhp too high compared to other RR's.

    Mind, thats not to say other people find its bang on.

    There is 50-70ft.lbs between torque levels of the K03s and the K04, but they seem to produce very similar end results, after all, the S3 is 300Kg heavier, thats 3 passengers heavier at all times.

    Also the 4wd system of the S3 makes for much larger transmission losses with the K04 only producing a approx 40Bhp at best and 50 ft.lbs more than a K03s remapped it makes for nothing in considering the K03s spools way quicker.

    Mind, you've owned both haven't you?

    Whereas I have just driven other peoples so don't have that in-depth experience, but on mathematical numbers, not an awful lot in it given weight and the massive transmission losses of running a Haldex.

    The ideal situation would probably be the Leon Cupra R, the K04 turbo and FWD, then you'd get the best Bhp per tonne and great torque, BUT, numbers arent everything.

    Plus I've discussed a load of hypothetical situations instead of actually doing something useful :-)
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by simch
    That's what everyone said until on ukmkivs rr day, the "rsgolf" jabba k03sport car went and made exactly the same hp on Awesome's RR! Over 250hp IIRC and that was about 2 years ago. Beat all K03cars on the day including some on race fuel.

    Mine k03s on AGU made 239.

    I think 240 is about the limit withot being really lucky and spending a fortune. Mine came in at about 1500 all done, with full miltek, brand new k03 sport and remap, fitted at jabba.

    For those that think, however, that a k03 sport is as good as a K04 ala s3 etc, sorry, but dream on, it is very much inbetween a stock k03 and a k04.

    Still not to be sniffed at, but a remapped k04 car will see if off just on torque alone.
    I saw RSGOLF's car a a london meet, and it's sweet, CATY IIRC. He's got some serious tweaks going on on that car. Inc fiddling with wastegate actuator, and other goodies. two RR's at 253bhp.

    Yes, a K04 will cream a K03s.

  30. #29
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    I think the rs golf was sold on about 18 months ago, it is a nice car and to be fair has the highest k03s power that jabba have got I think. He was fastidious about it though, it was being tweaked all the time! You can tell how into his car he was, it was immaculate that thing.

    I think an average k04 will see a solid 15-20hp more than even the best K03sport and as you said Dave, about 50-70ft of torque.
    Agree on the s 3 being heavier, but the 6 speed keeps it spinning. I have got an AGU with k03 s and now my s3, on straightline performance, with the different gearboxes, my k03s golf and stock s3 were very similar. Yes the golf had more power and a bit more torque, but the gear ratios are longer so it had to use it to get along! Still a "nicer" power delivery than a stock k04 though, not so buzzy and 2nd and third gears on the golf are great, over 70 in second and over a ton in third!

  31. #30
    golf's Avatar
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    The numbers don't tell the whole story. You have to look at the dyno to see that the K04 has a lot more area under the curve which is what matters most. The K04 has a lot more torque than the KO3s, and less lag.

    The K03S uses an identical turbine (exhaust/hot side) wheel as the K04, however, the difference in the K04 lies in it's more aggressive compressor trim, which will push more air up top (where the K03s lacks).

  32. #31
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Quote Originally Posted by golf
    The numbers don't tell the whole story. You have to look at the dyno to see that the K04 has a lot more area under the curve which is what matters most. The K04 has a lot more torque than the KO3s, and less lag.
    Thats not correct, the K03s has less lag. Thats science, and not numbers....

    However, the K04 is a better turbo, just not 'as' much better as some people make out.

    As simch point out, some of the K03s advantages are in conjunction with an AGU,as they have the 02J box, which is a 5 speed and it means not having to change gear to reach 60mph.

    If you compare a remapped, 265Bhp S3 K04 to a remapped, 240Bhp A3 K03s, then thats 185Bhp per ton to the K04 and 220Bhp per ton to the A3.

    40Bhp per ton is essentially a much faster car right up to 80mph.

    Remapped S3's make approx 285 ft.lbs, the remapped K03s makes 250ft.lbs, so 40ish ft.lbs as well.

    A remapped 150PD diesel Mk4 golf makes up to 320ft.lbs of torque, I dont see many posts (ignoring the obvious one) saying Diesels are beating the S3 all the time.

    I don't deny the remapped K04 driven S3 is a fine one, what I'm saying is that the remapped A3 K03s isnt substantially different enough to make them worlds apart, if we start talking IHI and Garrett, then things become a whole different ballgame.
    Last edited by Dave_Bayern; 16th July 2007 at 07:47.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

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    I dont know where your power to weight ratios come from, Dave, but that looks massively different! The theory must fall down somewhere, in relaity, the stock s3 225 is almost identical to a k03s modded agu!

    Maybe my golf is closer on weights to the s3, it has similar spec, ie heated leather and is a 4 door, so maybe that is why mine were not too different..?

  34. #33
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    Haldex 4 wheel drive system is a heavy old thing...

    10bhp differance between two dyno's in not wildly differant, that's only a 5% differance on a 200bhp car. Believe me a 5% error on an RR is not significant. Not that any RR can give an absolute value, there are just too many variables.

    Personally i wouldn't be running the the K03s on boost until it was properly mapped.

  35. #34
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    My power to weight ratios come from www.letstorquebhp.com

    The S3 is, according to google, 1450Kg.

    The FWD A3 is, according to google, 1095Kg.

    The Mk4 Golf, again, according to google is 1340kg.

    We know the Mk4 is lardy, so thats no suprise,

    Re: the S3, thats why the differences are there, the haldex is about 300Kgs total weight, and then you have transmission losses due to the quattro.

    Obviously the haldex makes up for these transmission losses via the extra grip, but on pure Bhp per ton, the numbers make sense.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  36. #35
    [Dave B]'s Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Dave_Bayern]...The S3 is, according to google, 1450Kg...[QUOTE]

    IIRC thats an S3 carrying a book load of options. In standard trim Audi and Evo mag quote an S3 at circa 1360Kg.
    > S3 225 (03) - OEM+
    > 205 GTI (90) - Limited Edition Miami Blue with full leather - 1 of only 300 made
    > Clio v6 255 (05) - Lethal Weapon

    View: My S3 diary

  37. #36
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    [QUOTE=Funky_Junky][QUOTE=Dave_Bayern]...The S3 is, according to google, 1450Kg...

    IIRC thats an S3 carrying a book load of options. In standard trim Audi and Evo mag quote an S3 at circa 1360Kg.
    If anyone bought an S3 from the factory, you will see that there was weights for all the optional extras, and the boot sticker will inform you of your cars weight dependant on what options you ticked!



    99' Audi S3(APY) - Brilliant Black Click>>>Going Sideways vid!
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  38. #37
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    [QUOTE=jojo][QUOTE=Funky_Junky]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    ...The S3 is, according to google, 1450Kg...

    If anyone bought an S3 from the factory, you will see that there was weights for all the optional extras, and the boot sticker will inform you of your cars weight dependant on what options you ticked!
    This is also in your user manual on the inside of the front page IIRC. Mine weighed in at 1440kg...the fat b1tch.
    > S3 225 (03) - OEM+
    > 205 GTI (90) - Limited Edition Miami Blue with full leather - 1 of only 300 made
    > Clio v6 255 (05) - Lethal Weapon

    View: My S3 diary

  39. #38
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    I dont beleive an A3 is over 300kg lighter than a golf mk4..>? Same floorpan/similar interior, the golf is not massively larger..?

    Just over 1000kg for a modern hatchback is very very light IMO...Not saying your research is bad, just I think if you weighed your car like for like with a golf they would be v similar. Cannot see how they cannot be unless Audi has an interior made of French plastic and spam!

  40. #39
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Its the number you get if you google and I also have 1096kg stamped on on my sticker.

    Most people with VW's don't believe it either, but its fact, and the main reason for me buying an Audi A3 over and above a Mk4 after owning Golfs for many years before...
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  41. #40
    A3_Turbo's Avatar
    Swaying towards IHI....

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia water, surrey
    Posts
    1,441
    I Always thought the A3 was a big heavy thing, no way would I have thought the A3 Was 3-400 Kg lighter than a MKIV Golf!

    You learn something new every-day

    Jason
    A3 1.8TS
    K03S,Pro Alloy FMIC, Neuspeed TIP, Forge 007P,Jabba Stage 2, BMC CDA, Turbo Back Miltek,H&R Cup Kit,H&R Arb's,18" Cup 3's Wrapped in Parada Spec 2's, Facelifted, 10k Hids, Dewipered, Debadged,S3 Interior, S3 Rear bumper, S4 Front bumper, Brembo's, Momo Team, LCR Splitter.

 

 
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