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  1. #1
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    Hybrid turbo upgrade - stage1, 2, 3, or 4

    Ok, so my mechanic tells me I should be on the lookout for a replacement for my K04s which is letting a bit of oil through, and I've stumbled upon this website:

    Hybrid Turbo Upgrade VAG 1.8T 225BHP Stage1 - FR&R Tuning| MAHA Dyno Rolling Road Tuning| Stage 1, 2 & 3 Engine Performance Upgrades - (Powered by CubeCart)

    which looks to me like an upgraded K04? Is that right? Should be a straight swap job?

    So this website says:

    Stage 1 - good for 260-280bhp
    Stage 2 - good for 280-300bhp
    Stage 3 - good for 320-330bhp
    Stage 4 - good for 340-360bhp

    So if I were to for instance need a new turbo tomorrow, and then go and purchase maybe a stage 2 turbo, and then bolt her on. What would I expect if no other mods were made? Would I blow my engine to pieces, or would it be strangulated by poor air flow in/out etc. Ill effects of this would be?

    Only reason I ask is if im on the lookout for a new turbo, something uprated might be quite nice, but I really am an engine novice so I'd like it to be a straight swap etc , and if this requires strengthened engine internals, I'd probably not bother. All the nice upgrades will come in time (and money) and I think a nice round 300bhp is the long term goal.

    Any help/thoughts/advice on this much apprieciated. Cheers

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  3. #2
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Those power figures are way off... no hybrid makes 360hp... not ever...

    You will need bigger injectors on anything thats likely to take you much over 280hp as the std S3 ones will be flat out and you stand a chance of it running lean... you ideally want rods... almost no hybrid I have had experience of manages much over 300hp without and exhaust manifold change... currently the main option is the relentless tubular manifold... JBS do one too but its got issues (they can be addressed with careful porting work) and is expensive compared to the relentless but the relentless has suffered from reliability issues...

    You will then need a custom stage 3 map to dial it all in... for the best power you would also need to fit a 3" DP and sports cat/de-cat, 80mm Badger 5 TIP and an airfilter/jetex cone and have a decent FMIC...

    Hybrids are not a simple bolt on and they work affair...

    There are a few hybrid build threads here... use the advance search for Welly and Dane to name a couple...

    <tuffty/>
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  4. #3
    beachbuggy's Avatar
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    Welcome,

    Stage 4 is never going to make 360bhp at a push it'll get 340bhp but then we are talking major mods and certainly not bolt on.

    Imho I would go with a stage 4 and aim for a sensible 310 bhp. Reason being is you have a good power target, good torque, sensible boost level and doable modifications .

    You can get 300 bhp fom a stock k04 but you will be trashing the arse off the turbo, and it probably won't last long or you can get a good hybrid and run sensible boost c18 psi and get the same power and the turbo will last.

    Have a read of Prawns thread as I think that's an ideal 300bhp motor. You want more then go BT.

  5. #4
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    Ok cool, that all makes sense. So if I really dont want to be going into engine internals, what are my best options? Do I just source a stock replacement turbo and do all the other fun stuff (fmic, badger5 tip, downpipe and decat etc etc) to work what best I can from it?

    Or what would happen if I went with a stage 2 turbo from the above link which is:


    High flow K06 Compressor wheel, C.N.C. re-profiled compressor housing, 360 degree
    thrust bearing, modified watercooled bearing housing, cut back turbine blades, lightening
    of turbine wheel for faster ‘spool up’, modified turbine housing, up-rated turbine seals.
    Other ‘blueprinting’ modifications. APPROX 280-300 BHP Max recommended boost
    pressure 20-22 PSI

    Is this just a stock turbo that has been 'tweaked' for slightly better performance? I guess what im trying to say is I only really want to do 'bolt on' mods, I cant be faffed with the time or the expense of internals. I need a new turbo at some point (its not terminal yet), and if a stage 2 would give a slight performance gain without having to do internals, then it seems a no brainer to me to go for it?

  6. #5
    Dane's Avatar
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    You'd be better off running the higher spec one less flat out.

    Its worth baring in mind that Westy has a brand new standard k04 that performs very well indeed.

  7. #6
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    Or I guess another way of putting it is, what would happen if you bolted a stage 4 turbo -

    Modified compressor housing inlet, C.N.C re-profiled compressor cover for high flow
    compressor, 2283 Spec “Billet Aluminium” Lightweight Compressor Wheel. modified
    seal plate, 360 degree thrust bearing, K04 Large trim left hand thread turbine wheel with
    lightening of turbine wheel for faster ‘spool up’, C.N.C. modified turbine housing for
    higher flow, up-rated twin turbine seals, 0.8 Bar up-rated actuator. Other ‘blueprinting’
    modifications. APPROX 340-360 BHP Max recommended boost pressure 24-26 PSI.

    to a stock, dead standard lump, no other mods. Would the turbo just tick along nicely taking everything in its stride nicely, not ever being overworked etc, or would it be too much for other parts of the engine and start causing issues elsewhere?

    Excuse my ignorance in all that is turbo, my S3 is my 1st one! Im loosing my forced induction virginity lol

  8. #7
    Gops's Avatar
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    Basically as said by Dane, get one but turn the boost down so you don't bend your rods. You then don't put much stress on your turbo and car as much as a stock one would. Then when your ready you can change internals etc and get more power - or something like that
    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    its either mapped or broken...

  9. #8
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    How do you turn the boost down? Would that have to be done via a map?

  10. #9
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    If you stuck on a hybrid without a map it would soon melt something! Even if you wanted to keep it tame, I'd suggest injectors as a minimum unless you decided to run like 10psi but would need mapping or an mbc to control.

    Ive just put my stock injectors back in mine and turned the boost down to 14psi just till it's through the mot and it pulls so much harder than stock and even with that I'm pulling 213gr on the maf which at .8 is around 260bhp! So the same as a stage 1 map but at a really low boost...

  11. #10
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nogmeister View Post
    Or I guess another way of putting it is, what would happen if you bolted a stage 4 turbo -

    Modified compressor housing inlet, C.N.C re-profiled compressor cover for high flow
    compressor, 2283 Spec “Billet Aluminium” Lightweight Compressor Wheel. modified
    seal plate, 360 degree thrust bearing, K04 Large trim left hand thread turbine wheel with
    lightening of turbine wheel for faster ‘spool up’, C.N.C. modified turbine housing for
    higher flow, up-rated twin turbine seals, 0.8 Bar up-rated actuator. Other ‘blueprinting’
    modifications. APPROX 340-360 BHP Max recommended boost pressure 24-26 PSI.

    to a stock, dead standard lump, no other mods. Would the turbo just tick along nicely taking everything in its stride nicely, not ever being overworked etc, or would it be too much for other parts of the engine and start causing issues elsewhere?

    Excuse my ignorance in all that is turbo, my S3 is my 1st one! Im loosing my forced induction virginity lol

    Ok... just bolting this on and not touching anything will produce more airflow for the same amount of boost... the hybrid has a larger compressor and this is why this happens... if you are running an unmapped car then (in theory) you will produce more power however... the map and all its protection will most likely have a spazz and throw the engine into limp mode each time you go on boost... the std map is expecting a certain amount of load at any given time and any deviation to this will be seen as an issue and so the protection intervenes... to what extent I can't really say as I have never fitted a hybrid to a std car with no map before...

    Hyperthetically as long as you never exceed the std injectors flow capabilities then you 'should' be fine... but you would still require a map but just not as much boost... the problems will arise when you use the hybrid to it full capabilities and you will exceed the capabilities of the other components... tbh if you are going for a custom map you would do as well to change the injectors and get the scaling done right first time... just not run as much boost and get up to a nice safe tune thats not going to tax the rods much but give you good stage 2 power...

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nogmeister View Post
    How do you turn the boost down? Would that have to be done via a map?
    MBC would do the job as it would cap the boost reliably. Or get the map turned down which would be a very simple job.

  13. #12
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    would you need up rated rods with a hybrid ?
    Sold 03 S3 Audi Exclusive Papaya Orange,
    New Car 05 Evo VIII FQ 340 MR 415bhp 400ftlbs

  14. #13
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collister View Post
    would you need up rated rods with a hybrid ?
    At the age the engines are now you could need them for stage 1... it can be mapped to be less spiky delivery wise but its still a small turbo and will spool quickly giving a hefty torque spike... the rods won't thank you for that..

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  15. #14
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    read prawns thread.
    that seems most suitable to you seeing as you dont want any major internal work.
    chance it if you wish, but you've got to be aware of the risks. So far, prawn has proved that careful tuning can make a hybrid reliable on an unbuilt motor. like its been said, you could make stage 2 power VERY comfortably and safely if you take it to the right tuner. You will need some other bolt ons to accomodate the extra flow though, downpipe, tip, intercooler. so its never cheap!

  16. #15
    Colly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    At the age the engines are now you could need them for stage 1... it can be mapped to be less spiky delivery wise but its still a small turbo and will spool quickly giving a hefty torque spike... the rods won't thank you for that..

    <tuffty/>
    thanks a late low mileage car shouldn't be too bad i hope, what sort of money you looking at for rods?
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  17. #16
    superkarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collister View Post
    thanks a late low mileage car shouldn't be too bad i hope, what sort of money you looking at for rods?
    mileage isnt the only deciding factor. the fact the rods are under-engineered for certain power/torque levels means it can still happen. They are made for a tame 225hp 210lbs car, not much more, yes they are over engineered as standard but where the line is NO ONE will know.
    just know that it can still go wrong.

  18. #17
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    you could lower the load scale in uni settings to turn boost down on a standard car....................

    I know a guy who sold a mapped car as standard, by just lowering the load scale until air flow and boost gave him a standard looking 225bhp. car didn't drive anything like standard though, still felt mapped but just didn't make the power.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  19. #18
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    A turbo based on a 2280-series (such as their Stage2 is) can be set with an OEM actuator preload. In other words, 0.5bar rather than the 0.8bar in their published specs. The turbo could then be run with the car otherwise as-is. Odds are the turbo would produce no more than 215-225 g/s, which is within the stock injectors' limits.

  20. #19
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    I'll prob just go for a stock replacement then, cheers all its been enlightening!

  21. #20
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    Does anyone have a stage 4 hybrid dyno run? Just wondering how they peak/sustain power as in the future it may be on the cards...doing supporting mods in the next few weeks though!

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nogmeister View Post
    I'll prob just go for a stock replacement then, cheers all its been enlightening!
    Haha after all that.

    Only just seen this thread. I was in the same position as you this time last year and I decided to get a standard K04 as I couldn't afford all the other bits at the time. I've now got all the hardware for a hybrid build but just a normal K04, so I've made it my mission to see what a standar K04 can do
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  23. #22
    superkarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jpd89 View Post
    Does anyone have a stage 4 hybrid dyno run? Just wondering how they peak/sustain power as in the future it may be on the cards...doing supporting mods in the next few weeks though!
    Another hybrid conversion thread....

 

 

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