Brake Upgrade

[Welly]

Due to popular demand (by you moaning lot) I have been considering a brake upgrade. Now, as far as I'm concerned, the S3 brakes suit me just fine. I hit the stop pedal, it will happily slow down from whatever speed quickly...

However, I decided to give it due thought....

Obvious choices:

Cupra Bremos. Nice, and look cool. Disc size not much bigger than the 312mms on Bumble currently... A lot of cost for questionable gains.

R32 brakes. 334mm. Bigger yes, but stupidly expensive for replacement parts - and will be questionably better.

Porkers. Tempting, but again, a pain, and a lot of money.

Soooo... I have decided to try some Brembo Max discs and Brembo race pads.

We'll see how they go me thinks. Cost of Discs was £110 delivered. Pads were £40.

Might be good, might be shat. We'll see....

 

[SiGainey]

You are weak PMSL

 

[Welly]

You are weak PMSL

Guilty. I just can't see the point though.

They stop me!! lol.

 

[AARON77]

Guilty. I just can't see the point though.

They stop me!! lol.

If it ain't broke don't fix it !

 

[Welly]

If it ain't broke don't fix it !

I wish I could be in that mindset about Turbos.... lol.

 

[superkarl]

I HATE my brakes. How on earth can you be ok with them lol

 

[Welly]

I HATE my brakes. How on earth can you be ok with them lol

Really? Mine are a tad spongy, but they bite really well.

 

[colicabcadam]

you wont stop any quicker with bigger brakes on the s3, it's a fact that the standard brakes are capable of locking up wheels with the best of tyres on, so how will putting more powerful brakes on help it?

the only thing you can improve is brake fade IMO and to be honest, i found that on mins with EBC discs and yellow stuff pads fade only really appeared after stopping 3 x from 70 in a row

i'd love to see 2 s3's with different brakes actually measure their stopping distance

bigger brakes for the track yes, bigger brakes for the road, no point, getting a better tyre would stop you quicker

 

[Jason.s]

hhm my argument detecting senses are tingling..

 

[aragorn]

For road driving its all in the pads tbh.

£40 sounds very cheap for any "performance" pad though...

 

[DJ_Troopa]

Welly, i know someone selling a brand new ECS mahoosive brake kit if you're interested? Going cheap too!!

 

[superkarl]

Good tires + abs = no lock up on standard brakes. It's science

 

[16Klappe]

you wont stop any quicker with bigger brakes on the s3, it's a fact that the standard brakes are capable of locking up wheels with the best of tyres on, so how will putting more powerful brakes on help it?

the only thing you can improve is brake fade IMO and to be honest, i found that on mins with EBC discs and yellow stuff pads fade only really appeared after stopping 3 x from 70 in a row

i'd love to see 2 s3's with different brakes actually measure their stopping distance

bigger brakes for the track yes, bigger brakes for the road, no point, getting a better tyre would stop you quicker

I couldn't agree more that tires are the biggest factor, but otherwise I don't agree.

EBC pads are UNSAFE on S3's, the backings are just not secure. I don't want to speak for Bill, and my opinion is not in any way connected with his however I am pretty sure he had a set delaminate from their backings himself. Given the price of them I would invest in some DS2500's for your chosen caliper.

The S3 brakes are not the best, their antiquated sliding design is not up to scratch really.

Personally for their price and availability Leon Brembo's all the way. The similar Porsche caliper is over priced and no better IMO.

 

[aragorn]

Good tires + abs = no lock up on standard brakes. It's science

Yes, but ABS activating means you're brakes can overpower the tyres.

And if they can overpower the tyres and engage ABS in standard form, fitting larger ones wont allow the car to stop any faster. You'll just reach the point at which the ABS activates with less pedal effort.

The main advantage you get from larger brakes of any kind is increased fade resistance. The larger disk absorbs more energy to raise its temperature, and has a larger surface area to facilitate cooling. Shiney 4 pot calipers improve feel, but again they cant magically make the tyres grip the road any more, so you still wont stop any faster. A 4 pot coupled with a large disk will give you excellent feel, and good consistent stopping power when using the brakes hard on track or similar, but they CANT make the car stop any faster from normal road speeds, because the standard brakes could already lock the wheels (or engage ABS if you will)

Infact, upgrading the front brakes, and leave the rears standard, can actually increase your stopping distance. That seems obscure at first, but when you think about it, a car is designed such that when you stamp on the brakes, all four wheels are working together to slow the car. When you brake you get weight transfer forwards, so your front brakes are much larger as they do a lot more work. Most cars end up somewhere around 70:30. Now lets say you install some massive 6 pot front brakes and huge 350mm disks to the front of the car that increase the power of the front brakes by 50% (random figure). Your balance now looks something like 105:30, or normalised 78:22. The problem is your front wheels cant do any more stopping than before, they just reach the point of lockup with less line pressure, so now at the point when your front wheels are on the verge of locking up, the rears are doing less work, because the line pressure is lower. As a result the TOTAL brake force transmitted to the road falls, and the car takes longer to stop.

The point of a BBK IMO is simply to improve consistency and potentially improve pad selection. Adding a four pot caliper will improve feel and give better modulation. But nothing you do to the brakes can make the tyre grip the road any better, so nothing you do to the brakes beyond a point will slow the car down any quicker.

 

[colicabcadam]

Good tires + abs = no lock up on standard brakes. It's science

what has abs got to do with anything? if abs is kicking in then your tyres are locking up, there for your sum is invalid

 

[s3dave]

you wont stop any quicker with bigger brakes on the s3, it's a fact that the standard brakes are capable of locking up wheels with the best of tyres on, so how will putting more powerful brakes on help it?

the only thing you can improve is brake fade IMO and to be honest, i found that on mins with EBC discs and yellow stuff pads fade only really appeared after stopping 3 x from 70 in a row

i'd love to see 2 s3's with different brakes actually measure their stopping distance

bigger brakes for the track yes, bigger brakes for the road, no point, getting a better tyre would stop you quicker

Hmmm when my brakes were changed to lcr brembos its funny how i nearly went through the fkn screen......

 

[aragorn]

EBC pads are UNSAFE on S3's, the backings are just not secure. I don't want to speak for Bill, and my opinion is not in any way connected with his however I am pretty sure he had a set delaminate from their backings himself. Given the price of them I would invest in some DS2500's for your chosen caliper.

The S3 brakes are not the best, their antiquated sliding design is not up to scratch really.

Personally for their price and availability Leon Brembo's all the way. The similar Porsche caliper is over priced and no better IMO.

I've heard similar stuff about EBC's before on all different models of car.

Again, as i said up there, good pad selection and stock disks will see you alright, i wouldnt even buy fancy "Brembo Max" ones, just stock motorfactors disks and good pads.

DS2500 and Mintex 1144 seem to be good choices, ofcourse there are many others too.

 

[aragorn]

Hmmm when my brakes were changed to lcr brembos its funny how i nearly went through the fkn screen......

And your confusing feel, with actually stopping quicker.

Rigid 4 piston calipers flex less, and have reduced "knockoff" compared with a sliding design. This means that when you apply hydraulic pressure, it builds quicker with less sponge and less pedal travel.

The brakes will feel more powerful, because more of the input is being directed into clamping the components together. You still cant stop any faster than the tyres will let you.

 

[colicabcadam]

Hmmm when my brakes were changed to lcr brembos its funny how i nearly went through the fkn screen......

initial bite, that's what you are getting, go and try to out brake a standard s3 from 70 mph..... you'll be n for a shock

 

[superkarl]

what has abs got to do with anything? if abs is kicking in then your tyres are locking up, there for your sum is invalid

sounds like your sayin braking power and stopping difference is governed by the abs then. I was only joking in my first post. However i dont think ive experienced abs in mine under hard braking, so for me standard doesn't exceed the mechanical grip if the tires.

I think upgrades are just improving initial bite, and making the biting power last longer I.e, reducing fade. which standard DO suffer from.
Either way its a tough topic to argue. Do the maths for each set up and work out forces involved for one, tgat really is science then go out and test stopping distances, which will vary.

Let's let welly buy his lovely new brakes now, and let him and others decide based on experienc
.

 

[16Klappe]

I've heard similar stuff about EBC's before on all different models of car.

Again, as i said up there, good pad selection and stock disks will see you alright, i wouldnt even buy fancy "Brembo Max" ones, just stock motorfactors disks and good pads.

DS2500 and Mintex 1144 seem to be good choices, ofcourse there are many others too.

Personally and in my opinion the reason the S3 brakes are pants is because of their sliding design and their fag paper thin discs. They get HOT very quickly and are difficult to cool because of the thin vent between the rotor and their cast iron calipers just holding the heat. For reference look at my discs -

And look at the color of them -

That was from road use.

Go find me another performance vehicle of the same age and value which has an iron single piston sliding caliper, I doubt you will!

 

[s3dave]

initial bite, that's what you are getting, go and try to out brake a standard s3 from 70 mph..... you'll be n for a shock

yes i would be shocked if there was no improvement for sure.....

 

[Jason.s]

Yeah the EBC thing varies on different cars. Nige on northloop for instance swore by Yellowstuff pads on his Mk2 Golf when others slated on their cars. Its light so they work great on his on track. On something heavier like our cars they`re dog sh!t..I dont know if you can get them on many Audi platforms but the newer blue and very newly released orange stuff pads are meant to be pretty damn good!

 

[colicabcadam]

it does make me laugh how people assume with no testing or facts to back it up that bigger brakes stop an s3 quicker than the standard brakes would.

does anyone have a comparison sheet ? a stopping distance sheet ? a video ?

if you are not able to lock your wheels up with the standard brakes then the pads you are using must be crap !!

btw - i have not stated that standard brakes are just as good as a big brake kit after a few hard stops as this will not be the case

if you want to stop quicker you need better tyres, wider tyres and smaller wheels, once you've done this and you can not lock your wheels up, you then need to up the calliper / discs - all round !

 

[s3dave]

well its all about efficiency so bigger is better for obvious reasons...

 

[Prawn]

I'm sorry, but I also disagree with just about ALL of the above, all the arguments are based on theory, and as of yet, nobody seems to have posted anything relating to actual experience.

Yes, I get your point about tyres locking, and in theory, if you're locking a wheel then the brake is as good as it needs to be, but what about the way in which standard brakes are able to lock the wheels?

On my standard calipers, in both 288 and 312mm form, with all sorts of pads, I too was able to lock up the wheels at high speeds.

This DOES NOT mean the brakes are as good as the tyres can take though.

The truth is, that in reality, the standard brakes offer very little modulation compared to a big brake kit, you press the pedal at 100mph, not a lot happens, you press harder, not much happens, you press firmly, still not a lot happens, then you utterly STAMP on the pedal, and the wheels lock up. Seemingly, at this point, both frictional and adherant pad behavior stops, and simple hydraulic pressure takes over and literally clamps the discs solid. ****** all use to anyone I'm sure you'll agree.

The beauty of a big brake kit, is the ability to run right on the very limit of a tyres traction without locking up the wheels.

When I brake hard, I actually get tyre squeal (like when cornering) as the tyres are RIGHT on the very absolute limit of what they can cope with. Using the same tyres on 312mm S3 brakes, you get a noticably lesser stopping effort, right before they lock up and the ABS kicks in.

We have proved this point by running the same wheels and tyres on my car with brembos, and Jardos identical car with 312mm S3 brakes. the braking effort from his is nowhere even close to what mine can produce.

Big brakes DO make the car stop quicker.

 

[colicabcadam]

well its all about efficiency so bigger is better for obvious reasons...

but we've already decided that standard s3 brakes can lock the front wheels up.......

if this is the case, putting bigger brakes will not stop the car any quicker as the problem is the grip in regards to the tyres and tarmac

imho stopping distance will be something like this


normal brakes and high end tyres = 50 feet
normal brakes and very hot slicks = 40 feet

bigger brakes and high end tyres = 50 feet
bigger brakes and very hot slicks = 35 feet

normal brakes and wider tyres = 45 feet
bigger brakes and normal tyres = 40 feet

see where i am coming from? bigger brakes will only stop the car quicker if you make other modifications which improve the grip of the tyres

 

[colicabcadam]

We have proved this point by running the same wheels and tyres on my car with brembos, and Jardos identical car with 312mm S3 brakes. the braking effort from his is nowhere even close to what mine can produce.

so what were the results in terms of distance covered while stopping ? i am sure you car is MUCH lighter ?

 

[Prawn]

I've never measured stopping distances, as I couldn't really give a crap about coming to a complete stop, it's all about getting from 100 down to 40-50 or whatever speed the next bend can be entered.

I genuinely think you're wrong though, standard brakes simply do not give the same rate of deceleration before they lock up the wheels as they cannot modulate in the same way. They offer limited deceleration before simply locking up all together, where as a BBK is able to ride right on the edge of the tyres limit without going over that point where the tyre simply locks.

 

[Welly]

I've never measured stopping distances, as I couldn't really give a crap about coming to a complete stop, it's all about getting from 100 down to 40-50 or whatever speed the next bend can be entered.

I genuinely think you're wrong though, standard brakes simply do not give the same rate of deceleration before they lock up the wheels as they cannot modulate in the same way. They offer limited deceleration before simply locking up all together, where as a BBK is able to ride right on the edge of the tyres limit without going over that point where the tyre simply locks.

I'm not saying that bigger brakes won't slow you down quicker - ultimately though, I am trying to find a happy medium that I find suitable for road use.

For the cost of an upgrade to R32 brakes, or even LCR Brembos, during fast road use I really cannot see that there will be any real benefits....

 

[colicabcadam]

i think i am correct in saying any discussion is not valid unless statistics are bought to the table.......

 

[S3 Paul]

My S3...
I had standard calipers with DS2500 pads, Eagle F1 tyres all round.
Never in the dry locked the wheels. ( and i do try)
I fitted a GT jnr brembo kit, ( same tyres ) and the stopping power, distance call it what you will... was miles better, Same roads ( used to race them ) added to the fact after a couple of big stop's BOTH set ups are crap. But the Brembo set up seems to hold up longer to abuse

 

[Welly]

I've never measured stopping distances, as I couldn't really give a crap about coming to a complete stop, it's all about getting from 100 down to 40-50 or whatever speed the next bend can be entered.

I genuinely think you're wrong though, standard brakes simply do not give the same rate of deceleration before they lock up the wheels as they cannot modulate in the same way. They offer limited deceleration before simply locking up all together, where as a BBK is able to ride right on the edge of the tyres limit without going over that point where the tyre simply locks.

Prawny, what brakes are you running?

 

[superkarl]

They hold their bite for longer, so i dont see how they cant stop quicker.

With standard its:
Wohhh I'm stopping, oh wait, no, no ,no now theyve gone to ****.
Thats what mine are like anyway.

with bigger 4 pciston i imagine its :
Stopping, stopping , ahh, stopping, stopped.

 

[Welly]

They hold their bite for longer, so i dont see how they cant stop quicker.

With standard its:
Wohhh I'm stopping, oh wait, no, no ,no now theyve gone to ****.
Thats what mine are like anyway.

I genuinely don't get that with my standard brakes. I regularly come down from 140+* to roundabout speed and they love it. Well, maybe not love it. But they do it.

(*kmph. Honest)

 

[Reesy]

i think i am correct in saying any discussion is not valid unless statistics are bought to the table.......

Does this not count for your argument as well?

They hold their bite for longer, so i dont see how they cant stop quicker.

With standard its:
Wohhh I'm stopping, oh wait, no, no ,no now theyve gone to ****.
Thats what mine are like anyway.

with bigger 4 pciston i imagine its :
Stopping, stopping , ahh, stopping, stopped.

There is an element of that from high speed Road speeds they aren't too bad, but higher then that and it's an 'uh-oh, they aren't stopping as fast as I'd like!'

 

[colicabcadam]

They hold their bite for longer, so i dont see how they cant stop quicker.

With standard its:
Wohhh I'm stopping, oh wait, no, no ,no now theyve gone to ****.
Thats what mine are like anyway.

with bigger 4 pciston i imagine its :
Stopping, stopping , ahh, stopping, stopped.

i'd say you've ****ed your pads or glazed your discs, either that or you drive like a complete nutter on the road !!!

 

[aragorn]

That is a fair point, and i did say you'd get improved feel with a 4 piston caliper, i just didnt consider the difference that makes at the limit.

You'd really need to compare the two calipers with identical pads though, and its not clear you've done that? You appear to be comparing your LCR calipers on DS3000/M1177 pads with Jardos on something else?

I've been tempted for a while to try a porsche caliper on standard sized disks just to see for myself what difference it really makes going from a sliding caliper to a rigid unit without a disk size increase, unfortunately theres no easy off the shelf bits for the A4, and i need a GT3/Turbo caliper because the A4 has bigger pistons than the A3, which mean finding cheap calipers off a boxster or whatever isnt going to happen.

 

[16Klappe]

The reason you cannot see any benefits is because you haven't driven a well sorted set of big brakes back to back against your uprated standard setup. People who have had big brake and caliper kits in the past have a habit of it being the first mod on their new/next car.

The brakes on my car are TERRIBLE, through no fault of their own. I have quality fast road pads, dimpled and grooved discs and FULLY braided lines. And yeah I can lock the wheels up but because I can actually drive my car (within reason haha!) I have no confidence in their ability to stop me in an emergency.

It is the opposite of your argument over my car being **** for being FWD, if you are measuring how good your brakes are by how easily you can lock the wheels up then you are doing it wrong. I had G60 brakes on my Mk2 GTI and could lock the wheels at 130mph, but under a fast road situation they were crap in the hands of a competent driver.

Prawn managed to boil the fuid and get a total system failure on my 205 GTI within two miles driving it properly...

 

[colicabcadam]

Does this not count for your argument as well?

pretty much, yes lol, but i have some backup by stating if a cars tyres can be locked up by it's current brakes, installing a larger set up will not stop the car and quicker, only enable it to stop quicker after a few hard stops.....

the most powerful point of stopping is just before the tyre locks, standard brakes do not fade at all during the first hard breaking, add performance pads and you can stop at least 3 times before fade becomes a problem

for the track, bigger brakes make sense as they are constantly used
for the road, performance pads are the better choice imo, if your brakes are fading on the road then i am afraid you are driving like a **** and i bet you would not drive in such a manor in front of mr plod