Volks AutosChris Nott

View Poll Results: How are your rods?

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  • Rods have NOT bent - on standard map.

    34 37.78%
  • Rods have NOT bent - on stage-1 map

    34 37.78%
  • Rods have NOT bent - on stage-2 map

    11 12.22%
  • Rods have NOT bent - on higher than stage-2 map

    6 6.67%
  • Rods bent :-( - on standard map

    0 0%
  • Rods bent :-( - on stage-1 map

    3 3.33%
  • Rods bent :-( - on stage-2 map

    1 1.11%
  • Rods bent :-( - on higher than stage-2 map

    1 1.11%
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  1. #81
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by s3dave View Post
    I have got uprated pistons and rods,
    "why"...because im hoping to go over the danger zone of 320bhp and it is widely excepted that the rods
    are on the limit at that power 320 +
    Power is not dangerous to rods. Torque is.

    You could, with the correct mapping, have an engine which makes 320hp and never exceeds 240lbft, and as such is probably never going to fail.

    Similarly you could have an engine which makes a peak of 180hp, but runs a rod bursting 30psi at 3000rpm.

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by metricspaces View Post
    Ok, I understand where you are coming from. But everyone can make up their own mind. They don't need to be told what to do.

    Don't get me wrong, I think your information and experiences of rod failure is useful to others on here, and will help us to decide if we want to replace our rods.

    But it is also useful to look at how many S3's we have seen rods fail in and the characteristics of those cars.

    Taking all this information together, people can then make up their own minds. Simple

    I'm not advocating an "It'll be OK" policy, and I'm not knocking down a "change the rods now and be safe" policy. I've set this thread up to simply gather information in one place so that people can make up there own minds.

    So on that front, I see no disagreement
    OK, that's fair enough - and I agree. I think we now see eye to eye lol.

    Anyway, back to the point I was making about antivirus on your computer - allow me to demonstrate why I asked.

    I assume you have - as most people do. The question is why?

    And the answer is simple - to avoid the problems that contracting a virus brings you, the associated costs, and the unneeded hassle.

    OK, antivirus software may cost you money (although small amounts in the grand scheme), however you offset that costs against the cost you would have had if you didn't protect yourself.

    There are people out there who don't have antivirus software installed. They browse the web every day without issues. That's not to say that all of us will be so lucky.

    I would liken this argument to the argument of having rods installed in the engine - although not ideal I grant you (I work in IT so I have to think of something IT related), but the point remains the same, although the costs involved are greater.

    Yes, there is a greater risk of contracting a virus on a PC than there is of having one of you rods bend, but the point is that it does happen.

    As said - it is solely up to you, and I for one am interested to see what the outcome of the pole is (and if someone could change my vote I would appreciate it).

    That's it from me, I've said my bit.
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  4. #83
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    How many people would change their rods if it was a tenner......lol

  5. #84
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    This thread has turned into in inevitably inconclusive ***** fight. Proof, photos, write ups are out there, find them, make your mind up, and take your own risks that YOUR happy with.bow back to the poll......

  6. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    Power is not dangerous to rods. Torque is.

    You could, with the correct mapping, have an engine which makes 320hp and never exceeds 240lbft, and as such is probably never going to fail.

    Similarly you could have an engine which makes a peak of 180hp, but runs a rod bursting 30psi at 3000rpm.
    Agreed...haaaa..... thats why my internals have been changed as i dont know what torque it will produce but hopefully well over 300

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3dave View Post
    How many people would change their rods if it was a tenner......lol
    Fitted?
    You have a deal. I'll expect you round my house on Sunday. I'll have the kettle on for 10am.
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  8. #87
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    Right, it's been a pleasure folks, time for a bit of lunch. Must leave my lead boots at home, I ain't got me uprated rods in yet

  9. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    You want proof rods bend at Stage 1 level.

    OK - easy.

    Spot the odd one out in the picture below:

    In fact you will also see that number 2 (in the picture - was number 3) and number 4 are *slightly* bent.
    showing just a picture of a bent rod is pointless as there is no argument that the rods do actually bend, have you any pics of the big end bearings or oil pickup pipe?? or anything else that could ahve lead to premamture rod failure??? yes i agree torque is the main contributer to rod failure but if there is extra pressure on them then there will be a higher risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dane View Post
    Plus some of the most knowledgable people on this forum Bill, Tuffty and Welly all reccomend changing the rods, all of whom know quite alot about these engines (they certainly know a damn sight more than me). All of the other advise I have taken from them has been spot on why should there advise on changing rods be any different?
    i dont see how 3 people who all have the same view from the same rod failure can be seen as 3 views in wellys secenario as it might as well be one view in my opinion... however i do agree that they all have far greater knowledge of these engines then anyone else on the forum and there time on here is valuable but in this instance i belive you can only look at there views as one imo

    also as for the link to the Integrated Enginering... Connecting Rod Failures Explained is also not a fair comparison as there the ones who make and sell uprated rods so its not an impartial view

  10. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    showing just a picture of a bent rod is pointless as there is no argument that the rods do actually bend, have you any pics of the big end bearings or oil pickup pipe?? or anything else that could ahve lead to premamture rod failure??? yes i agree torque is the main contributer to rod failure but if there is extra pressure on them then there will be a higher risk.
    No, as I don't tend to take pictures of perfectly serviceable parts... Only the broken ones.

    Shells were perfect (I've still got them at home somewhere if you want a photo), as was the oil pressure.

    Fair point though.
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  11. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    No, as I don't tend to take pictures of perfectly serviceable parts... Only the broken ones.

    Shells were perfect (I've still got them at home somewhere if you want a photo), as was the oil pressure.

    Fair point though.
    only reason is that looking at a fault across the internet is a very hard thing to do as you will no so pics of related parts would be more benificial, but if there in servicable condition then we shall take your word for it unless you find them and take some snaps... im just trying to see or find out if there is aslo a contributing factor to bent/snapped rods as i have seen some pics of rod failures where the oil pick ups were clogged and the big ends have serious hot spots on ill see if i can find the link later when i get time

  12. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    only reason is that looking at a fault across the internet is a very hard thing to do as you will no so pics of related parts would be more benificial, but if there in servicable condition then we shall take your word for it unless you find them and take some snaps... im just trying to see or find out if there is aslo a contributing factor to bent/snapped rods as i have seen some pics of rod failures where the oil pick ups were clogged and the big ends have serious hot spots on ill see if i can find the link later when i get time
    Yes ive seen some with badly scored shells with rod damage in the US of A....

  13. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    i dont see how 3 people who all have the same view from the same rod failure can be seen as 3 views in wellys secenario as it might as well be one view in my opinion... however i do agree that they all have far greater knowledge of these engines then anyone else on the forum and there time on here is valuable but in this instance i belive you can only look at there views as one imo
    Whether or not the opinion is from same rod failure is slightly speculative, but I except it could be. Never the less it is a view that could be considered, imo, to be an expert view which I am happy to accept and act upon. Just my way of thinking.

  14. #93
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    Having been doing some internet digging - I did come across this thread on SCN.

    IE Con-Rod Testing - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

    The conclusion being that the standard rods should cope with 300/330 Torque. And that's being said by Integrated Engineering.

    I still maintain it's a worthwhile mod - and would recommend people do it - but I must admit that was interesting.

    EDIT: More fuel here for the fire:

    The Audi TT Forum :: View topic - Bent Conrod! what would have caused it?
    Last edited by Welly; 15th February 2011 at 14:08.
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  15. #94
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    looking at this thread and a few others i have a 1.8t quattro so its 180bhp standard and was looking at getting a stage 1 remap which will still keep it under the power of a s3 or on same borderline would this be ok.

    i wouldnt want to go any more as its a daily driver and im looking a building a track car for fun and games for summer (Golf VR6)

    i only want my car to run as quick as an s3 i know why didnt i buy one its because i got this cheap due to swaping my 106 gti for it.

  16. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul syverson View Post
    looking at this thread and a few others i have a 1.8t quattro so its 180bhp standard and was looking at getting a stage 1 remap which will still keep it under the power of a s3 or on same borderline would this be ok.

    i wouldnt want to go any more as its a daily driver and im looking a building a track car for fun and games for summer (Golf VR6)

    i only want my car to run as quick as an s3 i know why didnt i buy one its because i got this cheap due to swaping my 106 gti for it.
    They are supposed to be good for well over 300, but i dont think anybody on here is going to suggest you will be ok, there could be other factors why they fail, so the decision is ultimately down to you im afraid...

  17. #96
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Paul: as i've said a few times, if it was my car, i'd have it mapped as is, i'd just keep the torque level in check.

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  18. #97
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    So the rods in the 1.8T quattro (180) are the same items as in the S3 (BAM for example)?
    I thought there were two different thicknesses?
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  19. #98
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    Smaller wrist pin and generally weaker looking.

    He says he wants it to be as quick as an S3 though, and a stock S3 has around 220lbft of torque, which i'd happily run on the stock 19mm rods.

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  20. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS1500 View Post
    So the rods in the 1.8T quattro (180) are the same items as in the S3 (BAM for example)?
    I thought there were two different thicknesses?
    Most engines have the 20mm wrist pin. A few have the weaker 19mm wrist pins - AUM in the MK4 Golf being one of them.
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  21. #100
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Most engines after 2000 have the smaller pin to be fair, only the S3/TT225 really kept the bigger one.

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  22. #101
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    Werd.

    Knowledge bomb dropped.
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  23. #102
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    I've been reading this a little, and aside from it being borderline pointless thread/poll imho I think the following uber paint.net lash up aptly describes the actual debate well



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  24. #103
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    lmao!

    work on your paint drawing bill

  25. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    I've been reading this a little, and aside from it being borderline pointless
    But obviously were still interested enough to read it and reply ;-)

    Rod lottery it could be indeed. With the extremely small precentage of rods bending and apparently no contributory factors other than being remapped (stage-1 which should be well below 300 lb/ft). Maybe one or two owners were just the "unlucky" ones to win the lottery of weak rods.

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    I think the following uber paint.net lash up aptly describes the actual debate well
    Didn't realise there was a debate. The point of the thread was to:

    A) Give people an idea of the number of S3's that are getting bent rods.
    B) Give people some information about individual S3's that are getting bent rods.

    Nothing about debate, all about information sharing. But happy to debate the benifits of information sharing, as one or two don't seem to get it

  26. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by metricspaces View Post
    ....Rod lottery it could be indeed. With the extremely small precentage of rods bending and apparently no contributory factors other than being remapped (stage-1 which should be well below 300 lb/ft). Maybe one or two owners were just the "unlucky" ones to win the lottery of weak rods....
    The contributory factor you are seeking here is your 'right foot'... mapping a car WILL increase the load effected on the rods... this is a fact..... now how often that extra load is imparted on the rods is literally down to the way you drive... there are too many variances here to predict when (and arguably 'if') your rods will bend but once mapped all bets are off anyway... when you look at the mileage these cars are having rods failing at it makes it more obvious that they weaken over time from this increased load at a rate only really determined by the way you drive... you could attribute low mileage failures to poor quality rods for sure but most of the failures here and that I have seen are on engines hovering around the 100k mark which most of our vehicles are now...

    Remapping increases the likely hood of engine wear and tear in general not just the potential to bend a rod... this is just the way it is...

    Your poll only seems to take into account various stages of mapping but does not account for driving style... there was an S3 advertised on Piston Heads not so long back with over 300k miles on the clock... motorway miles, can't remember if it was mapped but tbh I doubt it would have made any difference...

    I personally can't see the point of this poll as there are not enough metrics being captured to give a decent idea of the circumstances behind any one failure... there has been a failure from a car that was not mapped and while the owner at the time may drive like miss daisy there is no way to know if the car hadn't been driven hard before... Welly by his own admission 'spanks' his S3...

    Engines parts do wear out... the 20v engine is a bloody good engine but can still suffer from having a hard life... if you map your car and occasionally give it the beans then chances are you will be fine and you would be 'unlucky' as you say to suffer a bent rod just as you can be unlucky and buy a car thats a complete dog that you end up fixing all the problems the previous owners have conveniently ignored but going hybrid or BT then changing the rods is a no brainer IMO...

    To close I should also point out that this isn't the only VAG forum that has reported rod failures but on forums such as SCN etc they are more into their tuning than Audi owners here and go that extra mile which is why its less of an issue... the culture for tuning surrounding Ibiza and LCR owners is totally different to that of the Audi owners here on ASN...

    Just my tuppence

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  27. #106
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    Cheers, tuffy, some interesting views and thoughts. Just one or two things you may have got the wrong impression:

    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    The contributory factor you are seeking here is your 'right foot
    I'm not neccessarily searching for a contributory factor. If one pops up from the information people post, then great, that will be useful info. If one doesn't, then it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    Remapping increases the likely hood of engine wear and tear in general not just the potential to bend a rod... this is just the way it is...
    Remapping increases the likelihood of other mechanical parts failing also. Who's to say it doesn't lead to premature failure of gearboxes due to dealing with increased forces? I wouldn't be surprised if there are more gearbox failures on S3's than rods bending.

    Following people who advocate replacing rods on stage-1 because "they think" they are running at their limit. I could make the same conclusion about gearboxes. Then suggest the people recondition their gearbox with stronger components, as they may get a failure, which results in other serious consequential damange, and thus leaves them with a large repair bill.

    You can't go around replacing every part of your car because you fear it may fail. You need to be able to make a judgement call based on the level of risk. Some people are of the view that rods bending is a substantial risk on on stage-1, as they have stated the rods are running at their limit on stage-1, and thus have suggested people should replace their rods if on stage-1. This thread may give people additional information, and a differing perspective, so that they can make up their own mind.

    We all understand the thoughts behind the people who suggest stage-1's are running rods at their limits, and hence suggest replacing rods. Repeating this over and over isn't adding anything new. That is not to say that this view shouldn't be taken seriously. But we already know this view and the thoughts behind it. So unless people who are of this view actually have additional information in relation to the view, for example like the links Welly posted, then they aren't actually providing anything useful - just the same opinion, based on the same thoughts, that we've all heard already.

    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    I personally can't see the point of this poll as there are not enough metrics being captured to give a decent idea of the circumstances behind any one failure... there has been a failure from a car that was not mapped and while the owner at the time may drive like miss daisy there is no way to know if the car hadn't been driven hard before... Welly by his own admission 'spanks' his S3...
    I agree, if this was an exercise to produce statistically sound analysis that would allow us produce a model to predict the probabilty for an individual S3 bending its rods. But, and here's the big but , that is not the purpose of this thread\poll. So you are knocking down the thread\poll for something that it was never intended to be in the first place.

    The purpose of the thread\poll is to give people an idea of the level of failures, and to gather some information about each one. People updating the thread with information about their failures was a method to in some way capture some additional metrics\info.

    Some people think this is useful, others don't. People repeatedly saying they don't think it is useful really aren't adding anything further, because it has already been said. That's not to take away peoples opinions. But what is the point to it?

  28. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    To close I should also point out that this isn't the only VAG forum that has reported rod failures but on forums such as SCN etc they are more into their tuning than Audi owners here and go that extra mile which is why its less of an issue... the culture for tuning surrounding Ibiza and LCR owners is totally different to that of the Audi owners here on ASN...

    Just my tuppence

    <tuffty/>
    I find that a bit rich to be honest, especially on an Audi site, so your saying if we had the knowledge of the SCN guys there would not be an issue?
    There are plenty of people on here with great builds inc yourself, and a few possibly spectacular ones..in the making... so i would not say there is a lack of tuning culture...

  29. #108
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    My standard rods are fine there sitting in one of Bills old bin bags some where. haha
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    steves is way quicker than any stock turbo'd s3 i have driven
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  30. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by metricspaces View Post
    I'm not neccessarily searching for a contributory factor. If one pops up from the information people post, then great, that will be useful info. If one doesn't, then it doesn't.
    i really cant see what you are looking at finding out from this poll tbh???
    for me its good to have a thread dedicated to rod filures but having peoples opinions on actual failures and causes of failures is what a thread like this should be here for.
    As tufty has said drvining styles will determin the effect of rod failure which is a point missed by all so far and a point very much worth thinking about, i never just put my foot down and put a load under acceleration form low revs i always let spool up graduate before going flat out unless im giving it beans
    just a poll on how many rods have failed is'nt really worth it as there is obviously less failures then there are failures

  31. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3dave View Post
    I find that a bit rich to be honest, especially on an Audi site, so your saying if we had the knowledge of the SCN guys there would not be an issue?
    There are plenty of people on here with great builds inc yourself, and a few possibly spectacular ones..in the making... so i would not say there is a lack of tuning culture...
    Not what I am trying to say at all... I am saying that the tuning culture in 1.8t's appears more active on SCN than on ASN... this is just an observation... when you look at the number of cars running hybrid turbos, BT conversions etc on SCN in comparison to Audi's on SCN you will see what I mean...

    Thats not to say the knowledge isn't here its more that Audi owners tend to be more conservative in their tuning efforts than SEAT owners...

    The cars are generally cheaper to buy and therefore tune and modify... most Audi owners wouldn't go as far as a lot of the Ibiza and LCR owners have....

    There is a shift starting now though, 8L Audi's in particular are becoming more affordable and provide a cheap platform to good performance..

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  32. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    i really cant see what you are looking at finding out from this poll tbh???
    It's quite simple. I stated it in the very first post i.e. the number of occurances of rods bending in S3's.

    If people don't see a point in that, then that is ok, that is their view. Others, including myself obviously , do see a point in it.

    I've given the reasons why I see a point in it (numerous times - so I'm not repeating it again). If people don't think they are good enough reasons, then they can just disregard the results of the poll. If people agree, then they can take the results of the poll into consideration when assessing the level of risk with regards rods bending on their S3's.

    Hope that explains it. Quite simple and straight forward. Information sharing.

  33. #112
    s3dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    Not what I am trying to say at all... I am saying that the tuning culture in 1.8t's appears more active on SCN than on ASN... this is just an observation... when you look at the number of cars running hybrid turbos, BT conversions etc on SCN in comparison to Audi's on SCN you will see what I mean...

    Thats not to say the knowledge isn't here its more that Audi owners tend to be more conservative in their tuning efforts than SEAT owners...

    The cars are generally cheaper to buy and therefore tune and modify... most Audi owners wouldn't go as far as a lot of the Ibiza and LCR owners have....

    There is a shift starting now though, 8L Audi's in particular are becoming more affordable and provide a cheap platform to good performance..

    <tuffty/>
    Ok thats how it come across thats all, apologies...yes ive been a member of SCN for a couple of years and before that the mk 4 forums so ive been on the vag scene a few years, like you say they were the cheaper derivatives, so as things get more affordable to the masses, there is more of a willing to tune/mess with your motor, more than a 10-15k one...

  34. #113
    morgan306's Avatar
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    Am I the only one too scared to vote in this pole in fear of tempting fate?!

    I am interested to see how many S3s have experienced rod failures and whether they were modified or not,so this pole is interesting to me.
    2002 Black S3 BAM, AmD remap,Badger5 3" TIP,JR filter & heatshield,Porsche 996 Brembos with 330mm disks,KW shocks & springs,RNSE+Bose.

  35. #114
    s3dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgan306 View Post
    Am I the only one too scared to vote in this pole in fear of tempting fate?!

    I am interested to see how many S3s have experienced rod failures and whether they were modified or not,so this pole is interesting to me.
    Enjoy your car mate.....no point having it if not.

  36. #115
    Syvo's Avatar
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    i will go for a stage 1 map as this will be enough power for me if rods go ow well ive got a engine craine and stand its basically a mini work shop in my garage built about 5 engines in last 3 yrs.

    i a way i hope it goes just love sitting in the garage with things to build lol but on other hand be with out a car for couple of days meh all fun and games at end of day.

    if the rods go in the car its only minor as to what could happen brakes failing would be worse. slideing out round a corner into a wall gearbox going,etc

  37. #116
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metricspaces View Post
    A) Give people an idea of the number of S3's that are getting bent rods.
    B) Give people some information about individual S3's that are getting bent rods.
    De ja vu....

    There is a glitch in the Matrix....
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  38. #117
    Don's A3 TTu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    De ja vu....

    There is a glitch in the Matrix....
    and isnt A) and B) just saying the same thing in a different way


    A) Give people an idea of the number of S3's that are getting bent rods.
    B) Give people some information about individual S3's that are getting bent rods.

    i think the pole may have some relevance but it needs alot more data added cant we put a link to it on SCN and any other VAG forums


  39. #118
    [Dave B]'s Avatar
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    This thread will do wonders for the resale value of mapped S3's
    > S3 225 (03) - OEM+
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  40. #119
    jojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funky_Junky View Post
    This thread will do wonders for the resale value of mapped S3's
    Tell me about it, for the handful of rod failures we have in the poll, we should all be running scared about the possible risk.



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  41. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by metricspaces View Post
    You can't go around replacing every part of your car because you fear it may fail.
    Whilst I agree with you - The point I would make is that bending a rod brings massive cost with it. It's not like breaking a clutch or something along those lines. More often than not you will damage the block as well, which bring even more costs.
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