Which new turbo?

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slowcoach3

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I've been looking at a new turbo for a while now, just wanted to get my options straight.... I've got a "99 1.8t AGU I've already done the normal mods bar an fmic, added a ko3s but would like to get to 300ish. Theres no point getting the ko3 hybrided as it won't make that, if I go ko4 hybid thats obviously a lot of work ( I'm prepared for that ) so my question is with all the work involved would it make more sense to go for a Garret or similar? Either way theres a lot of work but is it much more to do a Garret conversion? I know the obvious thing would be buy an s3 and go from there but I'd want to do the same thing anyway and thats even more cash.....
I'd love to hear from anyone that has done this in their fwd to see how it handles this kind of power.... or if its genuinely not worth it!!
 
Whats your budget? Bt conversions always cost more than you first think (in my experiences).

I know a few people that have 300+ bhp in fwd a3s/golfs, they all seem to go really well after 1st gear.
 
AFAIK Bill has a hybrid K03 in his lupo making almost exactly 300hp.

Might be worth asking him what can be done with the K03 framed turbo before making a decision. I'm not sure if his turbo is available yet or if its still in testing stages though.

If your changing from K03 frame, then personally i'd be going something garret rather than having to change to K04 fitment.
 
JS1500 said:
I'd go K03 Hybrid if I were you. Should make around the same figures as a K04 Hybrid but will probably spool-up quicker!
Click to expand...
No, ko3 hybrids don't make ko4 hybrid power. They max at about 260-270.
Garrett would be the.best imo, because with the right turbo you won't be taking it to its limit, whereas a ko3/4 hybrid is very highly strung to get their max.
Look at a gt28 kit from backdraft motorsport
 
Theres a new hybrid for the ko3.its got ko4 (HYBRID INTERNALS)not standard ko4 parts which will see 300bhp.I'd say that's the best option imo and also cheaper too
 
superkarl said:
No, ko3 hybrids don't make ko4 hybrid power. They max at about 260-270.
Garrett would be the.best imo, because with the right turbo you won't be taking it to its limit, whereas a ko3/4 hybrid is very highly strung to get their max.
Look at a gt28 kit from backdraft motorsport
Click to expand...

As i posted two replies above yours, bills lupo has a K03 hybrid and is making 305hp.

I do however agree that i'd probably rather a bigger garrett running with a bit of headroom than a K03 wound to the moon.

However the K03 option is bolt on, and as such will almost certainly cost a decent amount less.
 
Hard isn't it? I'd prefer a bigger turbo running halfway, although Bills ko3 hitting 300 sounds awesome from the point of view that its bolt on with the mods I already have..... If its ko4 or Garret which would you go for? Loads of work for both but which is more worth it if you were doing it.....?
 
If you think 300bhp from a hybrid wont be enough in the future the go big turbo.
if not hybrid. Im planning to go hybrid as I pretty much have all the parts already fitted so other than turbo and injectors & maf,dont think there is anything else i need.

plus 300bhp in a fwd is going to be alot, nevermind 350+
 
I think the important question to ask, is why 300bhp?

not knocking you at all, not for a minute, but where does the 300bhp idea come from?

if you've been in a 300bhp FWD car of similar weight, and thats what you want, then fine, you know your target.

if though, you're driving around with a 220bhp car currently, and think 300 sounds good, then perhaps you wouldn't need that much to be satisfied?

For example, a 230bhp A3 will be equally as quick as a 270-280bhp S3, due to the weight, so 300bhp in an S3 may well be rivalled by just 260-270bhp in an A3 on a normal ko3 hybrid.

Bills ko3 framed KO4 hybrid jobby is fairly expensiev I believe, something like £950+VAT I seem to recall.

I went out in a 350Z yesterday, 280bhp, I thought it was going to be properly rapid. it wasn't :( it was quick, but both the owner and i agreed that it wasn't really any quicker than my 230bhp ko3S A3.

if 300bhp is definitely your target though, i'd definitely be looking for some head room in the turbo, running things flat out isn't good in the long run, and leads to reliability issues. Something like a GT28 at sensible boost could be the answer, but it all comes down to cost.

I'm going down the ko4 hybrid route, with a turbo that's been proven to make 344bhp, I'm going to run it at lower boost for hopefully a reliable 300bhp.
 
what turbo internals are in that hybrid prawn as I've never seem a hybrid make that much over 300? not doubting you, just curious

I see where your coming from about running the turbo flat out,but then again,that what were doing with our ko3s at the moment. like you said nearly a grand for a hybrid seems silly money as most places sell a garrett turbo for around that price. does anyone know what the lag is like on a BT? I'm so used to the instant power of the standard tubby
 
Paradox1 said:
what turbo internals are in that hybrid prawn as I've never seem a hybrid make that much over 300? not doubting you, just curious
Click to expand...

It's a prototype turbo and has Hybrid K04 internals in a K03 wrapper
 
ok thanks,isn't that the same as what badger bill is selling for a grand and only makin 300ish from?
 
The turbo I'm using is a full KO4 frame, with hybrid internals, and the other part, that I believe is hugely key to power, is the XS tubular manifold that Welly used when reaching hsi freak figures.

The Hybrid Bill is making 300bhp from is a ko3 hybrid PLUS (the name it's been given) which I believe it ko4 HYBRID internals into a ko3 frame.

Bill has had 316bhp from it in testing, so it's potential is huge, the 300bhp Bill is quoting now is an all day every day figure that it's making on sensible boost.

Difference between my (Wellys) setup and everyone else, is that it's an AGU engine, not AUM/AMK, so it's got a large port head, as well as slightly higher compression ratio of 9.5:1 instead of 9.1:1. Throw in the XS tubular manifold that took Welly from 300bhp straight to 344, and you can see why it's capable of such high figures compared to most others.

Whatever you go with, i'd really suggest getting a ride in a few cars in varying states of tune. The lighter A3 chassis goes ****** well with 230bhp from a ko3S, with 260bhp from a ko4 setup they really do shift very well indeed. I'm yet to experience it, but I can only imagine 300 from a hybrid will be nuts. I went in Bumble when it was just 300 and it was crazy fast, despite the heavy S3 weight.
 
audi upgrades
JS1500 said:
I think he was refering to Welly's old K04 Hybrid that made 344bhp? CR Turbos Stage 4 Hybrid wasn't it (off the top of my head)? With all possible supporting mods...
Click to expand...

Ahh my bad, too much hybrid talk lol
 
Prawn said:
Difference between my (Wellys) setup and everyone else, is that it's an AGU engine, not AUM/AMK, so it's got a large port head, as well as slightly higher compression ratio of 9.5:1 instead of 9.1:1. Throw in the XS tubular manifold that took Welly from 300bhp straight to 344, and you can see why it's capable of such high figures compared to most others..
Click to expand...
Are you serious? 300-344 from just an exhaust manifold???
 
Yup, with no map changes what so ever, Welly went from 300bhp with a ported stock ko4 manifold, to 344bhp with the XS manifold. This produced loads of heat though, and they eventually settled on 338bhp at about 22psi, which ran faultlessly for a fair while.

No other hybrids have gotten close to that figure since seemingly, but nobody has replicated Wellys full setup, the main thing people have been missing, are the higher CR of the AGU lump, and the manifold. it's the manifold that I put my money on being the big factor.

my setup will be identical to Wellys though, but without rods for now, so I'll run it at 18-20psi, and based on Wellys outputs, I should net 300bhp from that fairly low boost level, leaving some head room in the turbo, keeping it more reliable.

A garret would be ideal, but I got a stonking deal from the RS4 driving legend that calls himself Nutting. :)
 
oh I see prawn,thanks for clearing up the confusion. si am I right I saying that welly got his turbo made from cr turbos? or was it another supplier? don't get me wrong I'm happy with my stage 2 map.but I know I will want more in the near future so keeping my options option. your turbo upgrade does sound very impressive. more decision making for me then!
 
your forgetting the WMI that welly was running too. that + large port = massive timing advance which also contributed to huge power.

with your higher CR engine prawn i imagine 300 will be easily acheivable to run quite reliably.

as if you need more power!!!!

i think its kinda silly to say, right i want such n such a figure. because with loads of different setups driveability and its characteristics are all different.

i for example would like to go ko4 hybrid eventually, not for any such number, but for instant spool and huge sustained boost to the red line. those characteristics make it quicker than other cars that have higher peak figures. thats my reasons.
so maybe the OP should think about what exactly they want rather than just a number.
 
I threw in the 300 figure as some thing to aim for and to negate the ko3 hybid idea as I didn't want to aim for a maxed out turbo, thats one of the reasons I want to change from the ko3s I've put on. I'm looking to get a turbo with fast spool that will keep boosting beyond 4500 where my turbo starts to give up. Am I right in thinking that Bills ko3 hybrid plus runs off standard k03 manifold and would therefore need less modifications than a garret or ko4? If thats right then that would seem to make it kind of value for money if you don't have to change the manifold DP etc....
I've already recently added a 3" DP decat so it would be nice to keep that. Reliability is also an issue as its my daily....
 
Why not buy a set-up that includes the turbo, manifold, downpipe, oil lines etc so it's just bolt on and you would just need a remap + bigger intercooler?
Theres currently 2 for sale in the for sale section including mine with the kkk26 turbo from a porsche for just over a grand
 
I'd love to but I'm looking to collect things over a couple of months...... Whilst that works out more expensive it means I can do it as and when I have spare rearies...
 
A over looked turbo is the IHI VF turbos off scooby's, std they push out 300hp and don't cost much more than £300.
 
Bill used to run an FP hybrid which was 520bhp IICR.

One of the first big turbo kits used IHI's as well I think, but I'm pretty sure because they get a bit hot when run much more than 1.3bar and EGT's go a little high and the housings crack.
 
don't think ihi turbos are repairable so personally is choose something else
 
superkarl said:
your forgetting the WMI that welly was running too. that + large port = massive timing advance which also contributed to huge power.
.
Click to expand...

I know the final 338bhp figure was with WMI, but I think it's worth pointing out that the initial 344bhp run after fitting the XS mani was without WMI. Welly fitted the meth a few days later. Sure, it got red hot, and probably wouldn't have lasted, but it showed what the turbo was capable of without the HUGE timing advance addition from using WMI.

And to answer Paradox: yes, the turbo came from CR, it was the V1 CR ko4 hybrid. Ive now got that turbo, although it's been rebuilt again recently. When Dane bought it from Welly it was rebuilt with a 7 degree clip to avoid surge, and a new hotside.

Sadly, the new hotside was a chinese copy, so never worked for Dane as it should, it's now been rebuilt again with a genuine BW hotside, which has been ported by Bill, so it's pretty much back to Welly spec :)

the ko3 hybrid PLUS that Bill is using on the lupo isn't exactly bolt on though, due to using the ko4 compressor housing on a ko3 manifold it fouls the head and needs relieving, and I think it's a fair old effort to get a 3'' TIP working on a ko3 based turbo too, due to the gear shift cables being well and truly in the way!
 
thanks for the reply prawn. tbh as I said in my other post I'm happy with stage 2 at the moment so don't news to upgrade urgently. as for the hybrid plus,I think some of the turbo needs to be grinded off for it to air flush on the manifold. I think bill had to amend the coolant lines aswell.

this sounds all good but there is no point if CR turbos are going to pull a fast one and use non genuine parts.

when you planning on fitting your new turbo
 
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I honestly can't say when it's going to get fitted, all I need now is a downpipe, and the oil / water lines, but lines seem pretty rare, and the only set that I've seen for sale were £100! sodd that.

I'm hoping to fit it all early in the new year, and have it mapped jan / feb time, ready for next years trackday / ring season
 
why dont you get a flange from a k04 downpipe and get your current exhuast extended to fit?would need someone like powerflow to do the work.
I saw some oil and coolant lines going cheap the other day, will keep a look out for you.

I sooooooo want to come to the N-ring with you next yeah, will be such an experience.
think i need to get some local trackdays in first......
 
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