TTRS engine swap into an S3?

[GMballistic]

It's late when I'm posting this & it maybe an unrealistic or pointless exercise to some extent but just wondering has anyone attempted this?
Basically putting the TTRS 2.5 Litre 5 cylinder TFSI engine into an 8P3 Audi S3 in place of the 2.0 TFSI engine?

I mean looking at the engines layout it does seem possible to a layman.

Ideally I'd like my S3 to be running somewhere between 400-500Bhp one day and was just wondering the best and most cost effective way of achieving this goal. I would like to use the car as a daily driver still so it would need to be reliable which is why I wondered about the TTRS engine as it already has around 335Bhp as standard so a good starting point (not that the 2.0 TFSI is a bad starting point just that it's 70Bhp down on the TTRS engine, ..oh & a cylinder).

Any pointers or information appreciated (flame suit on just in case )

 

[S3Alex]

It's late when I'm posting this & it maybe an unrealistic or pointless exercise to some extent but just wondering has anyone attempted this?
Basically putting the TTRS 2.5 Litre 5 cylinder TFSI engine into an 8P3 Audi S3 in place of the 2.0 TFSI engine?

I mean looking at the engines layout it does seem possible to a layman.

Ideally I'd like my S3 to be running somewhere between 400-500Bhp one day and was just wondering the best and most cost effective way of achieving this goal. I would like to use the car as a daily driver still so it would need to be reliable which is why I wondered about the TTRS engine as it already has around 335Bhp as standard so a good starting point (not that the 2.0 TFSI is a bad starting point just that it's 70Bhp down on the TTRS engine, ..oh & a cylinder).

Any pointers or information appreciated (flame suit on just in case )

One thing I've learnt is that anything is possible,if you have enough money to throw at it.

However.....you say that you're looking to get around 400-500bhp from the engine,and I'd say that's easily achievable with the TFSi.

A TTE420 hybrid,or APR GTX2867 kit will get you to around 440-450bhp without having to build the engine,and would likely cost you less than sourcing an RS engine,adapting various parts to fit,and then tuning it to the same level of power,and not forgetting that the RS engine would also need a bigger turbo by that point.

Mine has been totally reliable over 85k miles from new,and the first 35k was at 360-370bhp,and latterly running 540bhp/550lbs,with a heavily modified engine.
To get this level of performance from the RS engine would also require substantial work.

Your only real advantage with the RS engine would come once you get beyond 600bhp,where the extra capacity would be most useful.

Have a quick scan(sorry...bit of a joke considering the length of the thread) through my build thread,and please ask whatever you need.

I can point you to people who can do all of the work you need,for either the TFSi or the RS engine.

 

[GMballistic]

Thank you for the reply Alex. I have actually read a fair bit of your thread already but as it was so long didn't even get close to finishing reading it the night I started.

I've modified a fair few of my cars in the past and have always predominantly been into the Japanese scene (Nissan, Honda & Subarus) so don't know a great deal about what is capable really with the VW group TFSi engines.

I do like doing what I can on my own cars myself but when it comes to trying to get big power from the engines & more labour intensive jobs I much prefer to hand over the reigns to the professionals. I know you'd probably recommend AMD Tuning as that's who's worked on your S3 but do you know of any other good companies a little closer to South Wales which is where I'm based?
Don't mind travelling a bit though for decent engine tuners/builders.

Although I don't plan on spending the cash on my S3 just yet I'm big into planning things out and making sure that I decide on the correct path first time round. For example: Don't want to buy an induction kit & then find it doesn't work efficiently over specific HP levels that I want to achieve or doing a PCV delete only to find out that an oil catch tank is the better option for efficiency with the TFSi engines.

Where would you recommend buying either of these kits from ~ A TTE420 hybrid or APR GTX2867 kit.
A link would be good if you can just so I can read up on all the specs & see what each kit is capable of.

Any info greatly appreciated, ...no rush though as this will be a long term plan for me as stupid things like food, weddings & the mortgage are trying to take most of my money nowadays. Ha ha.

 

[S3Alex]

No probs.....the thread has kind of turned into the car's own blog.

I'm also heavily into planning as much as I can,and trying to avoid as many problems as I can,but as you'll see,it's not always been that easy,as a lot of what I did was as the first UK car to get some of these parts.

Speak to @TTE Si who will be very open about what his company's products can and can't do,and will give it all up without any hype.
Also speak to @DeckedS3 who has the APR kit.

The thing with both of these kits is that they don't require the engine to be built,but that will also limit your maximum output to below 500bhp,and below 450lbs,which is about the long term safe limit for the rods.

Intakes.
I found the old ITG is still good for over 600bhp,but the next mod round will involve a custom 90mm induction system and MAF scaling.
I don't know if any of the others are Ok at that level,as none of them have actually tried it.

Induction manifold.
Mine is a Boulekos,which will take the extra injectors you may need for very high power,and the only other for that would be the HEP from the US.
All of the others,such as the lovely IE manifold,are only plumbed for WMI.

Head.
I fitted a Ferrea valvetrain for that.

Exhaust.
TSR Performance do make a nice tubular system,but I am not sure they've fitted a GTX3582 to it,which is pretty much the biggest we could physically fit.
The Nortech is OK with that.

The other thing you will need is some way of deleting all the breathers feeding crap into the inlet.....the IE system that I have is very effective,but expensive.
You've probably seen this enough times to get bored,but it does show the IE cam cover,and catch can system,plus the Boulekos inlet manifold etc.



For that sort of power,also budget on a Syvecs ECU,which Storm Developments have expertise in fitting and setting up.



For your purposes.....
TSR Performance would be nearer....

http://www.tsr-performance.com/

As would Unicorn ....

http://www.unicornmotordevelopments.com/contact.html

And maybe Statller...

http://www.statller.com/contact

 

[S3Alex]

Also meant to say(and this is probably teaching you to suck eggs,so apologies in advance...) that with this engine I think the best way to make the right choices is to decide on how much power you want before doing anything else.

When I had my Cosworths,getting 200bhp/litre was quite expensive,and 300bhp was damn near impossible to either build,or run reliably.
300bhp/litre with this can be a daily runner......that's progress for you.

Mine was done in stages,and luckily pretty much everything you need for each stage is required for the next,but the big jump point is around 450bhp and 450lbs.....that's when you go from fast to very fast,and need a lot of costly parts to do so.

If you haven't seen this thread,it's also useful for the higher power builds....

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/syvecs-ecu-for-tfsi-engines.265278/

 

[voorhees]

I know of a Caddy with one in.

 

[S3Alex]

I know of a Caddy with one in.

Now you see,I love things like that......like Badger Bill's 400bhp Lupo......


On the original track,one problem with the 2.5 engine is that the only kit for a bigger turbo was the APR kit,and that's designed specifically for the TTRS,not the RS3,and AFAIK there were issues with fitting it to anything other than the TTRS.

That would mean a custom build at least,and the APR kit for the TTRS is around £13.5k minus fitting,and a few other important bits like the HPFP which they sell separately,at £1.8k,and the exhaust and intercooler,for another £2.5k......you can see how this goes!

 

[GMballistic]

Also meant to say(and this is probably teaching you to suck eggs,so apologies in advance...) that with this engine I think the best way to make the right choices is to decide on how much power you want before doing anything else.

Mine was done in stages,and luckily pretty much everything you need for each stage is required for the next,but the big jump point is around 450bhp and 450lbs.....that's when you go from fast to very fast,and need a lot of costly parts to do so.

Nope that's a fair point Alex as there is a big difference between a 400Bhp S3 & a 500Bhp S3. Ideally I'd like to be as close to 500 as possible but I do like the idea of not having to have the engine built so a more realistic 450Bhp might be more like it.

My last bigger HP car was a Nissan 350Z which I dropped a lot of cash on & spent some time getting it how I wanted. The thing is I didn't really do it in stages though, ...I spent a lot of money at first on having all the service items done, some suspension work & all the brakes. Then I had it remapped (UpRev) with the mods I had on it at the time (Berks HFC's, Invidia Gemini true dual exhaust system, plenum spacer & a Stillen induction kit) to see where it was but also get it all running as it should be.
The result was 294Bhp@fly compared with the Nissan stock figure of 276Bhp but as it was a 10 year old car it may have been even less than stock figures when I started so I was fairly pleased.

Then over the course of around 8 months odd I purchased everything I need for fitting a Vortech V3 supercharger kit which I then purchased & had fitted by Horsham Developments (big in the Nissan scene).

The result was...

As you can imagine Alex the thrill of driving my car afterwards was incredible as the difference was massive.

Tbh I'd actually prefer to do it that way with the S3 if plausible.


From what you've shown me so far I do like the look of the APR kit but obviously not the price. lol. It's definitely the way I think I'd rather go though as buying an off the shelf kit with more or less everything you'd need massively appeals to me.

I understand not everything's included though like an uprated clutch/flywheel, intercooler etc but then that's where I guess I can pick the parts that are more suited to my driving style or particular eventual top power goal. I guess it may even make sense to try to get some things secondhand like the intercooler to help keep the costs down which is what I did with my 350Z build.


Hhhhmm, so much to think about & still so many questions.

 

[S3Alex]

I do like the look of the 350Z,and what you did with yours was superb.
It really must have felt very different after the S/c arrived!

When I bought my S3,I had said I was done with modifying cars etc,and that idea didn't last long.
Everyone knows the list of shortcomings,such as brakes,handling and then power,so that's what started me on it.

The APR kit is well made and pretty comprehensive,but very pricey.
You also need their injectors(or equivalents) and then the intercooler,LPFP etc etc,so it does add up.

The TTE420 will come in at a better price,and is effectively a bolt-on replacement for your existing turbo,but you would still need and intercooler and so on.

 

[GMballistic]

I do like the look of the 350Z,and what you did with yours was superb.
It really must have felt very different after the S/c arrived!

When I bought my S3,I had said I was done with modifying cars etc,and that idea didn't last long.
Everyone knows the list of shortcomings,such as brakes,handling and then power,so that's what started me on it.

The APR kit is well made and pretty comprehensive,but very pricey.
You also need their injectors(or equivalents) and then the intercooler,LPFP etc etc,so it does add up.

The TTE420 will come in at a better price,and is effectively a bolt-on replacement for your existing turbo,but you would still need and intercooler and so on.

It was a great car and I do miss it tbh.
Still back in a 4wd turbo car again now which is something I'd wanted for a long time since getting rid of my classic JDM Impreza, ...and what could be better than the build quality of an Audi hey?


I think what this is going to boil down to eventually is money and where I can get the work done.
Been looking at "AKS Tuning" website & although they are 3+ hours away from me I do like what it sounds like they could do for me. In saying that though "TSR Performance" are a lot closer which is preferable and they seem to be capable according to the list of services available, ...do you know anything about their Garrett GTX 3071R trubo kit?
Seems to be middle ground price wise between APR & AKS but no info on their site about it.

I think the next step is to look at exactly what I'd need using the TTE420 and price up everything and then do the same for the APR kit (possibly the Garrett??).
If the TTE420 comes in cheaper then tbh I'd probably go down that route if the difference was a lot as I don't earn mega bucks but have always saved hard for the things I've wanted.

Thanks for your insight so far.

 

[Gazwould]

Nice dyno graph , how is Jez ?

 

[GMballistic]

Nice dyno graph , how is Jez ?

Cheers, they did a good job with the map.

Haven't spoken to Jez for a while now & I don't see him pop up on the 350Z forum as often as he used to either. They have a "newish" guy working at Horsham Developments called Rich and he's fairly active on the Zed forum so I guess Jez is just sitting back a little & letting Rich get on with it.

So have you used Horsham before then I take it?.

 

[S3Alex]

It was a great car and I do miss it tbh.
Still back in a 4wd turbo car again now which is something I'd wanted for a long time since getting rid of my classic JDM Impreza, ...and what could be better than the build quality of an Audi hey?


I think what this is going to boil down to eventually is money and where I can get the work done.
Been looking at "AKS Tuning" website & although they are 3+ hours away from me I do like what it sounds like they could do for me. In saying that though "TSR Performance" are a lot closer which is preferable and they seem to be capable according to the list of services available, ...do you know anything about their Garrett GTX 3071R trubo kit?
Seems to be middle ground price wise between APR & AKS but no info on their site about it.

I think the next step is to look at exactly what I'd need using the TTE420 and price up everything and then do the same for the APR kit (possibly the Garrett??).
If the TTE420 comes in cheaper then tbh I'd probably go down that route if the difference was a lot as I don't earn mega bucks but have always saved hard for the things I've wanted.

Thanks for your insight so far.

TSR Performance are forum sponsors,and were helpful when I was looking for a solution to replace my old ATP Turbo kit,which was my original big turbo kit.
They gave good advice,and without pushing their own gear,which I do appreciate,and in the end what swung it was that I knew Nortech could guarantee that the 3582 I'd chosen would fit.

I am sure that having said that,TSR can guarantee that a 3071/3076 would fit with their kit,and from experience,you should get to around 500bhp with a 3076.
You would need to give them a call for current information,but you would need an uprated LP fuel system to get to that level,and you would be on the limit of RS4 or uprated S3 injectors for fuelling.
Torque could also be a problem as a 3076 is capable of getting you to around 500lbs at best,with everything else working properly.
It's easy enough to limit boost,and keep that down,but lag may become an issue then.

On balance,if you don't NEED to have 500bhp +,then the ATP or TTE would be the best solutions,and the TTE420 will be the cheapest.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to feed the beast so to speak,but also careful in planning what I need for that,and the jump from 440lbs to 500lbs gets costly,and anything more than that is another huge leap.
As an example,I'd already had the bottom end of the engine built for my old 3076,but the next step required this lot:

Boulekos manifold
Syvecs ECU
Ferrea valvetrain
IE cam cover and breather system
Nortech exhaust manifold and downpipe
Owen Developments M-Spec GTX3582

Yes,it is MUCH quicker,and easier to use the power,but it was equivalent to all I'd spent before and more.

I hope it helps,as it's so easy to start digging a hole,and then have to spend more to get out of it,when you begin a build that can't be stopped.

I think you love your cars as much as I do,and whilst I can't vouch personally for any other than Storm and AMDTuning,the others mentioned all have a decent rep here.

 

[Gazwould]

Cheers, they did a good job with the map.

Haven't spoken to Jez for a while now & I don't see him pop up on the 350Z forum as often as he used to either. They have a "newish" guy working at Horsham Developments called Rich and he's fairly active on the Zed forum so I guess Jez is just sitting back a little & letting Rich get on with it.

So have you used Horsham before then I take it?.

Aye , he chipped and did the alignment on the S14 + a dyno read out on the 1.9 PD .

 

[GMballistic]

Thanks for all your input S3Alex as I'm guessing it's not the first time you've had to "school" an Audi tuning noob on what are tried & tested methods of getting more power from the TFSi engines so your time is very much appreciated.

One thing I'm realising is that unlike with the 350Z that I did there are a lot more options available to me which is going to make the end decision a little more complex to decide upon.
Definitely going to be doing dome more research & taking in as much info as I can from what other members have previously tried. Also need to get some ideas of what clutch/flywheel combinations will work with power levels around the 450-500Bhp mark without upsetting the daily drive ability of the car too much (E.g: if in traffic).

I think ultimately though I will be contacting "TSR Performance" at some point once I have a better idea of my budget total.

Any more pointers I'm all ears.

Aye , he chipped and did the alignment on the S14 + a dyno read out on the 1.9 PD .

Ahh I see. They do a lot with the Nissans: S13, S14's and Zeds etc.

Strange place to go at first especially with their location (like a country farm) but once you've been and seen what they can do on the cars I think you'll agree with me it's worth going.
Jez and Craig fitted all my supercharger kit (fuel return system, injectors, intercooler etc) to my old Nissan 350Z plus mapped it & did pretty much all the major servicing jobs prior to that as well. Very happy with their work.

 

[S3Alex]

Thanks for all your input S3Alex as I'm guessing it's not the first time you've had to "school" an Audi tuning noob on what are tried & tested methods of getting more power from the TFSi engines so your time is very much appreciated.

One thing I'm realising is that unlike with the 350Z that I did there are a lot more options available to me which is going to make the end decision a little more complex to decide upon.
Definitely going to be doing dome more research & taking in as much info as I can from what other members have previously tried. Also need to get some ideas of what clutch/flywheel combinations will work with power levels around the 450-500Bhp mark without upsetting the daily drive ability of the car too much (E.g: if in traffic).

I think ultimately though I will be contacting "TSR Performance" at some point once I have a better idea of my budget total.

Any more pointers I'm all ears.

No probs...always happy to help someone else throw money at the car!

I was a complete noob when I got here,and lots of people here and on VAGOC have been very helpful,so it's good to pass that on.

For that sort of torque,on a manual gearbox,the Spec Stg3+ clutch is what you want.
It's relatively light and easy to use around town,and being a full face clutch it will tolerate being slipped quite well.
Mine has been run for over 40k miles,mostly at 500lbs or above,and is only now starting to slip at 550lbs after all that use.

It's an SMF setup,so you will get a bit of grumbling at idle,but there isn't any way around that for this sort of torque.

 

[GMballistic]

Thanks again Alex.
Just had a look at the Spec stg 3+ clutches on google and coincidentally also found one of your threads about when you had yours fitted. Lol.

Think that'll be just the job looking at it & what it can do. Not too bothered about going from a DMF to a SMF as it's generally not as bad as some people make out plus if you know why the noise is occurring then there's no need to worry.

If I get some spare time I might start trying to make a build list along with starting to look at prices. I did that with my 350Z build and found it very useful to keep track of where the build was heading as well as totaling up costs.

I'm still unsure on some things though so more research & reading is definitely needed.

For example looking at intake manifolds I can see that a larger plenum would be extremely beneficial & with a larger turbo going in probably essential but extra fuel injectors? ...sometimes up to four more! Not sure if that's over kill or more designed for even larger numbers on a built engine. Do you know what the OEM one is capable of?

I'm just trying to eliminate anything that I don't really need to see me at around the shall we say 450 number.
Again when I was doing the 350Z build I almost bought a Cosworth intake manifold at around £1400 but in the end my OEM intake manifold with a plenum spacer was more than capable of the expected performance level. True the Cosworth would have been slightly better but apparently I would have only noticed the extra Bhp performance at the top end of the rev range so was it even necessary? I decided no.

 

[S3Alex]

Intake manifolds....

The stock one is good for 450bhp definitely.

The concern is that at high boost levels it might crack but I never saw that problem.

The IE manifold has a larger plenum and is plumbed for WMI injectors which is useful and it is very well made.

Other than that for high power applications you have either the HEP or Boulekos manifolds both of which can accept extra injectors.
The reason for using 4 is that they can be run sequentially as port injectors as they are on mine.
If you look at that pic of mine above,the red rail is the extra LP fuel rail for the port injectors.
This allows me to use S3 direct injectors with their ideal spray pattern up to around 360bhp and then slowly bring in the port injectors above that.

 

[GMballistic]

I don't think I'd go with WMI so that would probably be wasted on me having the ports for it although the IE manifold looks incredible.

So on the intake manifold front I'd probably be interested in looking at a Boulekos one like yours or possibly the HEP Stage 2 (whichever's cheapest). I did find another one from a company called HPA but it was double the cost of the HEP Stage 2!.

So are you running a total of 8 injectors then Alex or have I got that wrong?.
And what cc are they & make?


I have heard that fitting the Audi OEM R8 coil packs (red variants) was a good upgrade although I notice yours are black so did wonder what you had. Have you changed the coil packs to uprated ones then I assume as well?

As always thanks for your time & no rush in replying.
Might still be planning this next year at this rate once I'm comfortable with what I need & where I'm heading. Lol.

 

[GMballistic]

Oh & my names Gareth btw.

 

[S3Alex]

Hi Gareth.

WMI is very useful and can be injected below the TB as on mine.

The HPA is nice but pricey and has no advantage over the others.
I am running 8 injectors....4 direct and 4 port injectors all run sequentially via the Syvecs with the port injectors run only when required.
That's triggered by lambda.
The port injectors are 1.8 S3 8L injectors.

Standard coil packs and stock plugs.

 

[GMballistic]

Hi Gareth.

WMI is very useful and can be injected below the TB as on mine.

The HPA is nice but pricey and has no advantage over the others.
I am running 8 injectors....4 direct and 4 port injectors all run sequentially via the Syvecs with the port injectors run only when required.
That's triggered by lambda.
The port injectors are 1.8 S3 8L injectors.

Standard coil packs and stock plugs.

I'm surprised you're running the standard plugs & coil packs. So there is no need to change either of those then?
Do the R8 ones not gain anything then really?, apart from looking pretty of course as they're red.


So are your fuel injectors uprated then or are they stock as well?
I'd guess they would need to be uprated with a higher cc rating in order not to max out their duty cycle but then as you have the extra 1.8 S3 ones does that counter the need for the others being higher uprated cc ones?.

Sorry Alex you must be sick of all the questions by now. Ha ha.

Oh one other thing for the moment ~ what do you think about the Forge PCV delete: http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/VAG_20TFSI_PCV_Delete_Plate--product--1361.html

Is that something not really recommended on a big HP build?

 

[S3Alex]

I'm surprised you're running the standard plugs & coil packs. So there is no need to change either of those then?
Do the R8 ones not gain anything then really?, apart from looking pretty of course as they're red.


So are your fuel injectors uprated then or are they stock as well?
I'd guess they would need to be uprated with a higher cc rating in order not to max out their duty cycle but then as you have the extra 1.8 S3 ones does that counter the need for the others being higher uprated cc ones?.

Sorry Alex you must be sick of all the questions by now. Ha ha.

Oh one other thing for the moment ~ what do you think about the Forge PCV delete: http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/VAG_20TFSI_PCV_Delete_Plate--product--1361.html

Is that something not really recommended on a big HP build?

Seriously,it's fine...ask away.

We tried running colder plugs during setup and simply got a misfire,so that went back to stock.
Coil packs...other than when you need to change them because they've given up,there isn't anything to do.

The way the injector system on my car works is like this....

Up to 380bhp,the stock S3 direct injectors do the work.
Above that,governed by lambda etc,the port injectors are brought in,to add fuel as required.

That gives fuelling for a theoretical 700bhp,although I might need another LP pump upgrade at that point...LOL.
The Syvecs ECU is an amazing piece of kit,and does things that the ordinary ECU and software can't touch.

PCV deletes are all very well,but they don't get rid of all the breathers,and that's the problem,and the reason I swapped to the IE system.

 

[GMballistic]

Thanks Alex.
That's good in a way regarding the injectors/coil packs as at least if the stock injectors & coil packs are good to reuse then that's less expense.

Have just been reading up about Syvecs TFSi ECU. They have made a slight spelling mistake in their blurb which is fairly comical unless a "Flat sh*t" is actually something and I've just never heard of it?! lol
Link: http://www.syvecs.co.uk/products/engine-management-system/tfsi-range-vag-group/

Seems fairly expensive though at £2.5K, ....pretty sure the last time I bought an ECU which was for my96 JDM Impreza WRX it was only around £1200 for a Simtek (with anti lag/TC etc).
Is that how much roughly yours was Alex? (£2.5K)

Whats a good option intercooler wise if you have any suggestions to go with the TTE420 set up?
Guessing the OEM one wouldn't be any good at that sort of level or would restrict the power that's all.

 

[S3Alex]

That is a quality misprint isn't it!

It does however describe how the car goes....LOL
What they mean is flat shift.....allowing the car to shift at full throttle without taking your foot off the pedal and losing boost.
It means the ECU will drop load momentarily to allow you to shift without mangling the box.

It is a very expensive addition to be fair,but if you look at what it can do,and how it transforms the engine,whilst managing to retain drive ability,it's amazing.
I had a Pectel system on my Escort,with ALS and water injection,but you couldn't compare the two.
This has multi-stage TC,2 stage ALS,and can run WMI,nitrous,flex-fuel,DSG control and a pile of other things plus multiple maps,switchable while you drive.
It can also use VVT as well.

I do think that for anything over 500bhp it'd be worth every penny.

That's the sales pitch over.....it did cost £2.5k but programming would be extra.

Inter cooler...I have a ProAlloy which is the biggest,although the Peron and Wagner are good,but the ProAlloy isn't much more expensive.
Today,with 22C ambient sounds,it was holding intake temps to 26-27C under load,without the WMI,which isn't bad at all.
WMI got the inlet temps down to ambient or less.

 

[GMballistic]

Syvecs does sound fantastic but are there any other options regarding ECU's?.

Revo, APR and the rest are just reflashing the standard ECU if I've read that right yes, so are they not really any good for HP builds? ...or is it just they are not as "all singing all dancing" as the Syvecs so lack things like multi stage traction control, 2 stage anti lag etc?.

Looking at the intercoolers online the ProAlloy one is actually similarly priced to the Peron one. So if the ProAlloy is the better of the two then I'd probably be looking at that providing there wasn't any problems with getting a larger sized intercooler behind the bumper etc. I have heard stories about cutting the crash bar, ...is that necessary with these intercoolers?

Although I won't be buying into anything just yet it's great getting an idea of which way I'm heading with the build (going to make a parts list soon). Really appreciate all these tips so far Alex & hopefully it'll be useful to other S3 owners thinking of going a similar way who maybe don't have the time to read through the hundreds & hundreds of replies in some of the build threads.

 

[S3Alex]

Syvecs does sound fantastic but are there any other options regarding ECU's?.

Revo, APR and the rest are just reflashing the standard ECU if I've read that right yes, so are they not really any good for HP builds? ...or is it just they are not as "all singing all dancing" as the Syvecs so lack things like multi stage traction control, 2 stage anti lag etc?.

Looking at the intercoolers online the ProAlloy one is actually similarly priced to the Peron one. So if the ProAlloy is the better of the two then I'd probably be looking at that providing there wasn't any problems with getting a larger sized intercooler behind the bumper etc. I have heard stories about cutting the crash bar, ...is that necessary with these intercoolers?

Although I won't be buying into anything just yet it's great getting an idea of which way I'm heading with the build (going to make a parts list soon). Really appreciate all these tips so far Alex & hopefully it'll be useful to other S3 owners thinking of going a similar way who maybe don't have the time to read through the hundreds & hundreds of replies in some of the build threads.

Custom tuners like Rick@Unicorn can do a lot with the stock ECU,such as flat shift,and a degree of ALS etc,but not as sophisticated as this,nor with the same range of options.
My own opinion is that below 500bhp you don't really need this sort of thing,and the custom tuners can do a lot with what you've already got.

Above that level,when you get towards 8 injectors,huge turbos and so on,this gets far more from the car,and makes it usable.

The ProAlloy is the biggest I could find in terms of core size,and did not need any cutting etc.
Avoid anything that involves "modifying" the crash bar,and give ProAlloy a call to ensure it will fit your car's model year.

 

[GMballistic]

Custom tuners like Rick@Unicorn can do a lot with the stock ECU,such as flat shift,and a degree of ALS etc,but not as sophisticated as this,nor with the same range of options.
My own opinion is that below 500bhp you don't really need this sort of thing,and the custom tuners can do a lot with what you've already got.

Above that level,when you get towards 8 injectors,huge turbos and so on,this gets far more from the car,and makes it usable.

The ProAlloy is the biggest I could find in terms of core size,and did not need any cutting etc.
Avoid anything that involves "modifying" the crash bar,and give ProAlloy a call to ensure it will fit your car's model year.

Ok so with around 450Bhp odd (sub 500) being my goal at the moment then I could really get on ok with a custom tune on the standard ECU by the sounds of it.
TSR Performance are closer to me than Unicorn so I assume they could do that for me as they're a Revo approved dealer?.

Also after looking around I think I would go for the ProAlloy intercooler ~ just copying you now. Ha ha.


Regarding the Ferrea valvetrain kit:
Did you go for the oversized valves?
And is this a necessary item on a sub 500Bhp build or just beneficial ~ for added strength & a higher RPM limit??

 

[S3Alex]

Yes...for sure,a stock ECU would get you there.

I stuck with the standard valve area,but that allows a bit more flow due to the better valve stem sizing,and in any case,the S3 head does flow well enough for over 600bhp.

 

[GMballistic]

See that is good news for me as I'm trying to keep the costs down to a minimum. That doesn't mean I want cheap rubbish or aren't willing to spend money where it's needed, it's just I'd rather not go OTT with things it just doesn't really need to get to my goal.


I've actually made a small list for starters but am missing a few things I know & possibly some other things that I can't think of.
Can you add to the below please Alex when you have time (prices/links all appreciated). This is not the list btw but more the things I think I'm missing off my list...

Exhaust system ~ I have a Magnaflow backbox which came on the car so that will have to go in favour of a full Cat to back 3" system (I'm guessing a 3" is the minimum). Would like something loud but not too loud as I'd like to still pass the Castle Combe trackday dB test (used to be around 95dB@1/2 metre but believe it's increased to 100dB now).
Cats ~ De-Cats??
Manifold ~ I see the TTE420 comes with an exhaust manifold so that's ok yes?! (eg. Won't need the TSR tubular one or do I?)
PCV ~ Catch can?
Cam cover ~ I take it the stock one is good enough for my goal?
Brakes ~ Looking at getting used RS4 brakes from eBay/here unless you know of something similar or better. Any suppliers for an RS4 kit?


Just trying to keep you busy Alex. Thanks though.

 

[S3Alex]

Hi Gareth....

The best current exhaust would be a full BCS system.
I'm still getting one when I can get my schedule and theirs to fit in,as there are plenty of recommendations here,and Storm recommended them as well.

If the TTE comes with a manifold,then that's a problem solved...speak to Simon @ TTE to be sure.

PCV with can will do some good,but it's getting all of the breathers re-routed that does the job.
That comes back to the cam cover as well......if you want rid of the coking issue there is only one cure or you need decokes at regular intervals.

I think that DaveB and AwesomeGTi may have some brake solutions but I use a 6pot AP kit which is way better then the previous VWRacing kit I had.

 

[GMballistic]

So yours is an Integrated Engineering cam cover, ...and that solves the PCV system problems as it reroutes the breather pipes does it?
How much roughly are we talking & were can you buy them in the UK please?


I've never heard of "BCS". Quick Google search turned up this: http://www.powervalve.co.uk/products/audi/s3/s3-2-0-t-fsi-quattro-2007-3-door.html

Is that what you mean?
Wouldn't a valve system in the exhaust get coked up though after a while & possibly stop working?

 

[S3Alex]

So yours is an Integrated Engineering cam cover, ...and that solves the PCV system problems as it reroutes the breather pipes does it?
How much roughly are we talking & were can you buy them in the UK please?


I've never heard of "BCS". Quick Google search turned up this: http://www.powervalve.co.uk/products/audi/s3/s3-2-0-t-fsi-quattro-2007-3-door.html

Is that what you mean?
Wouldn't a valve system in the exhaust get coked up though after a while & possibly stop working?

Order direct from IE in the States.
Very fast and efficient service,and good prices.

That's the exhaust place.....and no,they don't coke up!

 

[GMballistic]

Thanks Alex. I'll take a look at their website when I get a moment.

 

[GMballistic]

Hello again Alex,
Was looking at TSR Performance as I'm thinking of ringing them next week to try & get a dyno run done there maybe just for a base line power check.

I noticed on their website though that they do a turbo kit for our cars. There isn't any info on their site about it at all apart from the price (£3995) but looking at the picture it is a decent turbo (Garrett GTX3071R) with an external "Tial" waste gate & tubular design exhaust manifold.

Am I right in thinking that you used to run a Garrett GTX3071R?

What sort of power range, if you know, do you think that it would be capable of producing & is it better or comparable to the TTE420 hybrid turbo kit that I was looking at possibly getting?

It's a lot more money then I was contemplating spending but it's definitely peaked my interest.
I know I could ask TSR about it but they're hardly likely to say it's not as good as a competitors turbo kit or more money than I need to spend for similar power levels so just thought I'd ask you first as you seem to be a knowledgeable guy on this subject.

 

[S3Alex]

Hi Gareth,

I did look at the TSR kit when I was having some work done recently.
They were very helpful with respect to the kit itself,and mapping.

The only thing that stopped me buying their kit was that they couldn't guarantee that the much larger 3582 I'd chosen would fit without issues,whereas the Nortech guys had already based theirs around this thing.

I would say that in all other respects,theirs is equivalent to the Nortech,and they have a good reputation.

A GT3071 would get you to the mid 400s,but I would recommend a GTX3071 or GTX3076,which would get you further ,but remember what I said about the rods and torque.

 

[GMballistic]

Hi Gareth,
A GT3071 would get you to the mid 400s,but I would recommend a GTX3071 or GTX3076,which would get you further ,but remember what I said about the rods and torque.

So in essence then Alex if my target is still 400-450Bhp lets say & I don't want to be having the engine rebuilt then I'm probably better off still going for the cheaper TTE420 hybrid turbo?

I think financially it's probably a better shout for me with the TTE420 tbh, as much as I'd like to go big, I think it'll be a big enough jump from more or less standard which is where I am now.

 

[S3Alex]

So in essence then Alex if my target is still 400-450Bhp lets say & I don't want to be having the engine rebuilt then I'm probably better off still going for the cheaper TTE420 hybrid turbo?

I think financially it's probably a better shout for me with the TTE420 tbh, as much as I'd like to go big, I think it'll be a big enough jump from more or less standard which is where I am now.

I think that's very sensible....when I started,there was nothing like the TTE420 around,and the only choice was which big turbo kit(out of only 2 around!)that you would choose.

The TTE offers a good increase in power,at a very good price,without the hassle of an engine build and all the associated costs.
The other mistake that people make(and I can vouch for this personally ) is not knowing when to stop.

 

[GMballistic]

Cheers Alex.

The S3 for me is giving me the same feelings that my old 350Z used to give me, ...I mean I wake up in the morning for work and although I don't really want to get up the fact that I get to drive the Audi makes me look forward to going to work. Also when I park it up at work I can't help but look back at it & think that's a good looking car.
The Honda Civic Type R I had before the S3 just never did that for me which is probably why I only lasted 10 months with it whilst continuously looking at other cars & S3's for sale during that time.

Contacted TTE to see what they say about a few questions I have plus I'm waiting on some more quotes.

 

[nil538]

Hi mate Tsr performance do some really nice stuff and there big turbo kit are really nice but even if you go for TTE Set up they do really good custom mapping