Toasted breaks? Help!

[Meza]

Evening guys, I need your help please!

I did a hefty stop in my S3 tonight, and got the usual massive fade afterwards, but now it feels like my brakes are completely shot.

There is now next to no breaking force at all, and the pedal travels nearly to the floor. Only right at the bottom of the pedal is there a small amount of breaking force. The ESP light came on, went off after an engine restart and then came back on a minute later. I don't feel safe at all driving the car.

What has happened, and more importantly what can I do?

 

[Jampublic]

Or maybe even your brakes!

Sorry, thats not very helpful!

 

[nky_84]

fluid has boiled and left lots of bubbles of air in the system perhaps?

Could change the fluid an see if that improves things?

 

[Jampublic]

Maybe upgrade your brake fluid too, a few people on have said that helps reduce brake fade as well! Motul I believe..

 

[simch]

Unlikely, the fluid would cool pretty quick, and if its boiled fluid you would have pedal to the floor with no resistance . Fade is fade, ie a general pedal with no or reduced braking force. Pads could be knackered, or just poor pads.

Are your brakes stock?

 

[Aky]

My suggestion

 

[Meza]

Or maybe even your brakes!

Sorry, thats not very helpful!

Aarh what a fcukwitted mistake, I'm normally such a stickler for spag! Ok I was a little frantic when I posted, and the brakes were broken, breaked and brocked, all at the same time!

 

[Meza]

Yep brakes are stock, pedal just sinks to the floor at the moment. Once the fluid has boiled, will it return to normal after cooling it is bleeding/replacing it the only option?

Is there anything that I could upgrade to between the stock S3 brakes and the brembo kit?
What could I get for say £250 in the way of solid stopping power.

 

[Jampublic]

New disc's and pads maybe £300, black diamond grooved disc's and Ferodo DS2500's is nice little set up! Have a google and see what comes up, I think I found some good prices on Venom Motorsport last time I was looking.

Good luck!

 

[Meza]

What will the size of the discs on my S3 be please, are they 312mm or 288?

 

[MikeA3]

What will the size of the discs on my S3 be please, are they 312mm or 288?

S3 standard front discs are 312mm by 25mm discs

about £35 per disc from ebc brakes : http://www.ebcbrakesdirect.com/car/parts_disc.asp?part=disc&make=AUDI&model=S3+&year=1%2E8+Turbo+%2898%2D2003%29

Did the brake light come on at all? - it looks like this - (o), if it did, it would indicate your pads are low but it's never 100% accurate IMO.

best bet would be to have the wheels off and see how much meat you have left on the pads and discs before buying new ones, from what you've described it could be air in the system as suggested above or possibly a leak somewhere.

 

[Meza]

Cheers
Nope I didn't get the brake warning, just the ESP light stuck on. Will stick it on vagcom tomorrow and see what that says.

I thought it might be a good time to upgrade the discs and pads really if I'm going to need to flush the fluid anyhow. Those blackdiamond discs and Ferrodo pads seem to be getting good reviews on this forum.

 

[MikeA3]

Those blackdiamond discs and Ferrodo pads seem to be getting good reviews on this forum.

thats what i'll be going to next i think - don't have the spare ££££'s for brembo's just yet and i'm too wary to buy them off ebay or the like

 

[simch]

Yep brakes are stock, pedal just sinks to the floor at the moment. Once the fluid has boiled, will it return to normal after cooling it is bleeding/replacing it the only option?

Is there anything that I could upgrade to between the stock S3 brakes and the brembo kit?
What could I get for say £250 in the way of solid stopping power.

the fluid should cool to give a pedal pdq, but once bolied, it loses some of its properties meaning its worth relacing at some point.

it sounds to me like you may have a leak somewhere, if once cool the pedal still sinks to the floor. get it towed and checked. Depending on model and age, there was a fault with some VAG cars where the banjo washers on the rear brake line connections rotted through and caused total brake loss, but most have been recalled and replaced now. Worth havign a look under the rear just in case you see some leaks, it can happen after a very heavy appllication of the brakes.

 

[simch]

Also if your ESP light is on, it could be you have a faulty wheel sensor on the abs which is meaning the brakes are releasing themsleves thinking the wheel is always locked! Its a scary fault and happended to me once on my golf.

Try removing the fuses on the battery for the abs relay and abs pump. This will take the abs out of the system completely and if your brakes are suddenly back, it means there is a fault ono the abs system, ussually a wheels sensor melted! Vagcome will tell you which, about £80 each though! ! ngthe mcertheareew

 

[rodenal]

£80 for a sensor where did you buy that from??????

£17.50e from eurocarparts

 

[rodenal]

GSF even

 

[simch]

Audi

 

[nky_84]

Try removing the fuses on the battery for the abs relay and abs pump. This will take the abs out of the system completely and if your brakes are suddenly back, it means there is a fault ono the abs system, ussually a wheels sensor melted! Vagcome will tell you which, about £80 each though! ! ngthe mcertheareew

Simch, think i remember seeing a thread that you have done a few track days in your S3, have you taken the fuse out for them? I find the ABS kicks in way too early on almost every car ive driven. ABS is all good for preventing a huge lock up when a driver slams on the brakes in a crisis, but when your pushing on and wanting to squeeze every last % out of the S3's brakes i would of thought removing the ABS would improve the brakes performance on track, no? Also, does removing the fuse take out any other features?

 

[rodenal]

On an S3 i think puling the ABS fuse will take out your ESP too, could be wrong tho

 

[simch]

I take it out when I take my old AGU golf on track but actually left it all live on the S3. Turn ESP off of course on track, but I found the ABS was fine. I think it depends on the grip you have as to when it will lock up and kick in, I found with my toyo rs and billy's , I was able to brake very late indeed, with the only concern being my bolied fluid at the combe, (now fixed with castrol srf installed).

 

[Meza]

The fault code tripping the ESP light was implausible signal from brake pressure sensor.

I tried the brakes again today and they are no different. Soon into driving the whole DIS turned into a brake symbol with an exclamation mark in and it began beeping. Sounds like there must be a leak and I've now lost enough fluid for it to detect it.

In the manual it says the pedal travelling to the floor may mean one of the circuits has gone.

Where is the fluid reservoir - is it on the left hand side of the engine bay tucked under the strut brace? It looks really hard to get to.

 

[Meza]

I've just got the car back from the garage all fixed.

One of the pipes going from master cylinder to ABS unit had burst. Apparently it was rubbing on a turbo pipe. They replaced this and all's fine.

What I'm not happy about is the overpowering smell of jeyes fluid in the car, and a suspicious mark on the passenger seat!
I haven't paid them yet, so I'm going to take a good look and sniff of the interior tomorrow and see if they've been putting oily boots all over my lovely banana seats.

 

[Caesium]

Thought it would be unlikely to be boiled fluid, one stop wouldn't generate enough heat to boil the fluid.
Make sure when the pipe burst it didn't spray fluid all over the place as it removes paint really effectively.

 

[Meza]

Good point, I'll ask them.

 

[Caesium]

I take it your car is fairly new?
if it is and the pipe has burst then I'd kick up a ******* stink, you could have been seriously injured, you expect the braking system to work, if it has removed any paint then get Audi to rectify it!

 

[Meza]

I recently bought it from an independant garage, it's 2001 with 70k. It has a 12 month aftermarket warranty, but they said they wouldn't cover it as it's pipework - only cover mechanical items.
It was a different independant garage that did the repair work.
Do you think I have a case, who needs complaining to?!

 

[Caesium]

Does the warranty paperwork actually state no pipework? How do they define mechanical items, as things that move? Sounds like a ******** get-out to me.
I'd speak to the office of fair trading as this sounds like a dangerous negligence to me, or maybe VOSA might be a good place to start.

 

[simch]

Sounds like the pipework was moving, hence it touched th turbo and rubbed through!

Aftermarket warranties are hopeless, waste of money IMO.

As for the pipe touching the turbo, I have heard of this and was a real issue on some of the aftermarket turbo conversions too. One drafty veriosn in particular!! It is horrifying that you could lose all brakes from high speed.

I think there was a post about something like this after a cambelt change where the garage moved a pipe out the way and forgot to put it back too. Not so long ago IIRC.