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Standalone ecu

Tj 0785 Oct 4, 2018

  1. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    been looking it to boost control for the 3.2 engine and it seems it’s not doable to use a n75 setup using map sensor on the factory ecu.The tried n tested method is to just put a 18 or 14 psi spring in the wastegate. I imagine this would be a pain mapping trying different boost pressure having to change springs, plus I would like some sort of control and maybe switchable maps if possible so I’m thinking maybe standalone ecu would be best option
    I know of emerald that @Prawn uses and ignitron that @<tuffty/> uses
    But what else is out there that’s decent
    anyone used the motorsport electronics ecu?
    https://motorsport-electronics.co.uk/products/universal-engine-management-systems/
     
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  3. Bluepower

    Bluepower Active Member

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    Both the Emerald K6+ and the Ignitron are very capable ecus. the ME221 has some draw-backs and I've read some negative comments about them(mostly from Mazda users), but I had contact with a local tuner who's a retailer for the ME442, and he is very happy with that one(also compared to the 221).. But the ME442 is more expensive then both the K6+ and the Ignitron ecus.. Also one to consider: Ecumaster Black
     
  4. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    just try and find a Dual Pentium they always win the benchmarks
     
  5. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    It seems ignitron is for the 1.8t only
     
  6. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Narp... has and is being used on VR engines and 5 pot Audi's

    Supports up to 6 cyls but single wideband lambda and boost control so can't do twin turbo is all... no that its needed really...

    Is even is use with a DQ250 DSG box...

    <tuffty/>
     
  7. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    nope, it is used on 3.2 dsg turbo'd also
     
  8. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    Your right Just looked again it says in brackets 3.2.

    What would you say the best way to go about the boost control is? I been told you can use the original ecu to 600bhp by using the wastegate spring but after that to go standalone. But that won’t give me the option of switchable maps
     
  9. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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  10. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    I have seen a fair few cars running standalone... not once was I tempted to use one despite having various drivability issues on std management on my current setup...

    MAF being the biggest culprit... yes you can run MAFless on ME 7 but its not fantastic.. the tables in question are designed for limp mode not normal running...

    ME7 for the VR is also narrow band... I would not really want to run narrow band on a vr turbo... the only standalones I have seen that tick the boxes for me are the ignitron and the ME 442... the ignitron is plug and play and the features are brilliant... it has fast lambda control and the level of control vs other standalones is awesome...

    ME442 though is supposed to be very very good too... not seen one in the flesh as yet but its at least comparable to ignitron... it is more a proper standalone than ignitron is though so is more generic... not sure how it all interfaces with the VAG modules... ignitron at least is designed to work with VAG cars...

    Personally having used various types of external boost control the closed loop system in Ignitron is epic... a lot of third party controllers simply give you all the boost all the time no matter how you drive... part throttle in particular can be an issue... some controllers do take feeds from throttle position but they never seem as smooth and you don't get the smoothness or protection of having it integrated...

    Personally... I don't think you will regret going ignitron.... but ME442 also looks good but I cannot really say either way on that one as not had the experience with it...

    I know Brian is developing the ECU further to support VR's better as he has customers with VR turbos...

    I can ask him to pitch in to give specifics...

    <tuffty/>
     
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  11. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    The more Info the better. That’s my concern is how reliable the aftermarket controller will be with the standard ecu.
     
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  13. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    if your ecu can cope with the varying loads ok, then an ebc will give you control...
    Cortex controller is a pretty advanced configurable setup, as are many other stand alone, offering more than one setting etc
     
  14. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    a one box solution is always preferred option imho

    Question is not how the ebc will cope with the stock ecu (it wont care) its how the oe ecu will cope with much different loads given it cant see anything other than airflow.. no map sensor
     
  15. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    Well as you I’d want you to do the mapping on it when the time comes so if you think the standalone is best il go that route
    Il look more into the ignitron
     
  16. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    Sorry for Jacking the thread TJ and pitching in, but would running a 1.8t hybrid benefit from a ignitron ECU, my reason being so it can run mafless properly.... one less thing to go wrong. That and all the other benefits from the ignitron Ecu over standard
     
  17. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Arguably yes... will give flexibility over tuning and visibility of whats going on... I believe there are quite a few cars running Ignitron with hybrid K03/4's

    <tuffty/>
     
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  18. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    Cheers PT, something worth considering closer the time for me then. Daft question... but are you still able to read engine fault codes with VCDS on the ignitron ECU.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    No... not the ECU but it has its own fault codes etc that you read with the ignitron software.. VCDS still works for the other modules in the car though
    Screenshot 2018-10-05 at 19.36.54.png

    <tuffty/>
     
  20. S3AMJ

    S3AMJ OEM+ Team Brilliant Black Audi S3

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    Muchas gracias PT!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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  22. Pyeman

    Pyeman Member VCDS Map User Audi S3 TDi Audi A6 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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  23. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    plug and play onto a drive by wire car it is not tho.
    popular budget diy setup if you are "in" to being very hands on etc
     
  24. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    I hope these are as good as they look as just ordered one. Plan is to fit it to the TT as it is ATM and get it working OK then change it over to a MAF less setup to get the hang of that. Hopefully when I get the G25 on the car I will have worked out what I am doing with it. Rather than changing the engine out and the ECU in one go.
     
    Tj 0785 likes this.
  25. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    go MAP based from day #1 dude.
     
  26. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    If I was to go with the ignitron and using map sensor and mafless would I have to fit a recirculating dv and n75 set up aswell?
     
  27. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    N75 controls boost pressure by activating the wastegate. How do you control boost ATM. As I under stand it if you go MAF less you don't need to have a recirculating dump valve, you can just dump to atmosphere as fuelling is determined by pressure in the intake along with the lambda sensor.

    I suppose it makes sense to go MAF less from the outset, Then all the learning I have would be directly related to tuning the new Turbo set up.
     
  28. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    No boost control yet theres no turbo on it I did think about dump to atmosphere maybe I’m overthinking it when as you say with no maf no need to clutter up the engine bay
     
  29. baliszoft

    baliszoft New Member

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    Hi! Im the one who is associated with the ecu beginning with letter "i":).
    It is continuously debated over here if the OEM ECU has to be replaced or not, since (they say) anything can be done with a wideband ME7, so why to spend another grand for a standalone, wiring, additional sensors, etc... And this is true in some extent, no doubt! You cannot use more than 100% injector or N75 duty cycle with a standalone either, you have practically the same ignition advance timing range to use, so there is nothing which would make the engine more powerful... and i have to admit that this is true!

    Still going standalone (to any standalone), is a different world. OEM ECUs are primarily for cars in mass production, while standalones allow you to squeeze out the last HPs left in your engine (whether it is good or bad, you decide) and they do it a lot easier than with the stock ECUs.

    For example, if you need to install a 3 or 4 bar MAP sensor (so you can at least see your real(!) boost level in the log) that involves of modifying lots of maps in the ME7, so complex that none of the tuners do that over here in my country. Are they incapable or just simply this does not pay out? Who knows. In a standalone, it is just a few mouse clicks away (f.eg opening a preset file for a different MAP scaling/linearization).

    Then there is the MAF sensor. The bigger the turbo, the less you want a restriction in front of it! By putting the MAP sensor where it can sniff the vacuum too, the MAF can be ditched without sacrifying anything important. Your engine will not be sensitive to leaks on the intake side, it will idle/run happily without the charge pipe connected to the throttle body. I wish i could count how many times did the charge pipe blow off the turbo or the cooler during mapping cars. When running on MAF the engine dies, when running on MAP you continue to drive safely (without boost of course). OK ME7 can do MAFless, ... is it 100% in every situation (not just at full throttle)? ... especially with the MAP topping up at 2550mbar?!

    Then there is (re)programming. You go out to the track or drag strip, you want to fix or alter something in your file... How long does it take to reflash the wideband ME7? At least around 4 minutes (while praying not to brick the ECU) and still you didnt even change anything on the file.... Or better: you map the car on the road (bad habit, do not do that :D) and you just want to alter one single digit... Will you pull over, wait for 4 minutes every time? This is all time consuming labour which again does not necessarily pay out when you got a heavily modified, custom spec. built engine. (With a standalone its a fraction of a second).

    ... and these were just a few things which came into my mind. You have to decide if you need a standalone or not.
     
  30. baliszoft

    baliszoft New Member

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    Yes, you would need to add a MAP sensor, N75 and a BOV or DV.
     
  31. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  32. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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  34. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    When the cars finished and ready for the 1st start can I plug the ignitron in and it will start or can it be loaded with basic settings just so it’s safe to drive Or sent to bill to load it with a basic map so it can be driven to his for tuning
    Or will it have to be tow’d and all done on the dyno? As I don’t feel comfortable messing with ecu settings
     
  35. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    I would have thought a basic file could be provided by Bill or Bryan to allow you to start the car and run it . Usually you would want to put some miles on the car anyway before it is mapped if you have changed things such as rods and bearings they really need running in a bit before they hit a dyno.
     
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  36. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Once the base map is on you normally start with all the boosty things turned off (actuator pressure) and do the first part of the VE tuning to get the fuelling half about... this can be done by driving the car sensibly without revving out so at the same time as running in...

    Once the VE table in the lower kpa/rpm ranges is done you can then look to get the final mapping sorted on the dyno...

    I essentially plugged mine in on the base map Brian sent me and drove the car home... the lambda is so fast it will deal with the fuelling very well but obviously you don't take the wee until the trims are in a decent place

    <tuffty/>
     
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  37. baliszoft

    baliszoft New Member

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    Yes, a basemap will be needed to be able to start/run the car. For the 1.8Ts a basemap wizard is in the windows software, for other engines (not yet included in the wizard) i usually send a basemap to start with.
     
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  38. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    As an Emerald k6 user I can agree wkth everything Brian has said about standalone system. It's not the capability that makes them so good, it's how accessible they make everything.

    As a bystander to tufftys build, the Ignitron swap seemed incredibly straight forward and it seems like a really great product.

    If I had an me7. 5 based car I wouldn't hesitate to run Ignitron
     
  39. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    we're currently selling an as new K6+ Emerald setup which comes with dbw 1.8t loom adaptor and wideband lambda controller - £899 delivered uk mainland..
     
  40. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Well been doing some reading up on Speed density tuning and reading through some of the on line translations for the manual.
    Need to sort a MAP sensor and get it plumbed in to measure the pressure in the intake manifold. I thought I would be Ok as I have a Bosch 4 bar sensor I bought for my A4 TDI. The G25 could run over 2 bar of boost I believe so trying to make the install future proof.
    It seems the minimum pressure the sensor will go down to is -0.5 bar or 50kPa which I don't think is low enough to measure the manifold vacuum seen at idle. I have seen the 3 and 4 bar Delco MAP sensors that connect via a pipe to the manifold. These go down to 40kPa I believe , looking at the VE plot illustrated on the Ignitron site this starts at 15Kpa.
    Question is how low a minimum reading do you need. On over run you can get a pretty big vacuum generated in the manifold but my thoughts are more with getting a stable idle and decent part throttle low rpm running.
    Anybody have links to a suitable MAP sensor ?

    upload_2018-10-9_23-10-0.png
     
  41. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    List of supported map sensors from the Ignitron softwares base file wizard...
    Screenshot 2018-10-10 at 08.12.03.png

    <tuffty/>
     
  42. Rainbird

    Rainbird Active Member

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    Loosely related, but if that's not a user-friendly interface to get you started then I don't know what is!
     
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  43. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    we've used the vag 3.0 TDi 4bar sensor.
    works and resolves to the vacuum fine.

    remember on overrun, you are max vac yes but also injectors off, so you will just sit on bottom row of map.. which is'nt where its driven at all... its overrun..
     

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