Stage 2 not right .

[GarethS4]

guys I have a 2012 s4 which I have had a remap and Apr pulley change done .I am happy with how my car drives but I don't feel it's anywhere the jump in performance people talk about .i must say that nowhere to me has a 4wd rr until last week so I have not got any figures to say what it's doing .A guy local to me had his done last week and only got a figure of something like 390 .the Rr is not perfect yet seemingly but I would think my cars gain would be ore to that figure than 460 odd everyone else has got .My question is ,do you think that the map is not working properly with the pulley and allowing my car to Loose performance .Honestly it drives perfect ,no missing ,nothing but just does not feel the guts of 450 hp.im getting it on the rollers next week so I will see then what it says .If its 390 odd I will cry tbh.unfortunately in n Ireland we all very limited to who works on these type off cars .i would of liked to have went to mrc etc but the boats/travel would make it very expensive .
What should I really be expecting to see with map/pulley and cat back milltek.thanks guys .

 

[Chop.]

Who done your map mate ?

Did you go straight to stage 2 and did you notice the change straight after ?only asking as I just went stage 1 last month 400bhp and the difference on the way home was 100% noticeable and still is

I think most people with stage 2 and what you've listed are all around the 470-480 mark some more depending on fuel

 

[arad85]

Careful with crank vs wheel hp/torque - 390 wheel hp = ~440-460 crank hp depending on dyno. Also, do you have a DSG or manual? If a DSG, did you get the DSG remap? If you still have a stock transmission map, I have no idea what the effect on top end power is.

I have dynos of my car on APR before and after stage 1 and stage 2 and it is a significant bump (not allowed to say precisely what as my car is a test car for APR) but around the upper end of the figures you are quoting. The figures on APR's page are representative within the +/- 10hp you'd expect from different dynos/cars.

Stage 2 should be around 460+ hp but what is more important for acceleration is torque.

 

[arad85]

PS. exhaust is negligible in performance improvements. It gives a nice sound rather than lots more extra power (despite what the exhaust manufacturers claim!)

 

[ianv5]

I am at Stage 1+ with REVO map and think it is around 460bhp. I previously had just stage 1 and it definitely feels quicker. Revo stage 1+ has powerpully upgrade, I also have stronic remap and CAI. Car will run sub 4 sec 0-60 and pulls like a train. Very happy, always run Shell Nitro + or Tesco Momentum.

 

[xpoweruk]

Do you have VCDS ?
If so do some logs to see what is actually happening.

 

[xpoweruk]

Also,what version did they flash ? The latest is V4 & allows the use of a dual pulley setup to increase performance even more

 

[arad85]

XP: what's stage 1+ on REVO? Is it equal to stage 2 on APR (in which case, the APR is obviously better since it is one more than you have... )

 

[ianv5]

Revo stage 1+ is equivalent to Apr, MRC stage 2.

 

[xpoweruk]

XP: what's stage 1+ on REVO? Is it equal to stage 2 on APR (in which case, the APR is obviously better since it is one more than you have... )

Hahaa,Revo 1+ is pulley & tune just like APR

 

[Cerbera9]

I think DSG cars with stage 2 tunes need the gearbox mapped as well to make the quoted stage 2 figures and give the big bump over stage 1

 

[xpoweruk]

I think DSG cars with stage 2 tunes need the gearbox mapped as well to make the quoted stage 2 figures and give the big bump over stage 1

You are spot on with that.The extra revs available make a shed load of extra power when the box is mapped

 

[arad85]

Yup, extra hp comes from extra revs, but I'm not sure how much of that comes from DSG vs ECU remap. I've been told by someone who should know, that the rpm limit is ECU based. Would make sense, otherwise non-DSG cars would be down on hp....

 

[xpoweruk]

I imagine a car that drops boost after 5K,then imagine the same car but that car jeeps boost.
Stage 1 is the other car,al stages above that are the other car on speed

 

[arad85]

You got a stock curve there XP? I have mine, but it's overlaid on a non-stock which I can't share for the moment. Sneaky extra boost at 6800-6900 to get 500 hp though

 

[Cerbera9]

Yup, extra hp comes from extra revs, but I'm not sure how much of that comes from DSG vs ECU remap. I've been told by someone who should know, that the rpm limit is ECU based. Would make sense, otherwise non-DSG cars would be down on hp....

Exactly, standard manual car rev higher than standard DSG cars hence with the same map they make more power until the DSG gearbox is mapped to allow a similar rev limit to the manual cars. The shift points & clutch clamping forces are also altered and increased to make the car more driveable and allow the full extent of the mapping to be utilised.

 

[GarethS4]

My car is manual box. Maybe was not very clear in initial post .I have the Apr pulley installed but not the Apr map.it is a local tuning company which uses someone else's maps .tbh I'm not sure whose though .i was told that it was 100% right for my car and was the correct map to allow for the pulley upgrade .tbh I think it's just had a remap equiv to stage one .is this possible or would my car not run correct if this was the case .would it do damage if it wasn't correct for the pulley upgrade .
The company involved in the mapping is regarded as one of the best in Ni here and I have used them before on other cars and had no bother.just need to wait on the rollers to see exactly what the story is.

 

[xpoweruk]

You got a stock curve there XP? I have mine, but it's overlaid on a non-stock which I can't share for the moment. Sneaky extra boost at 6800-6900 to get 500 hp though

It is actually timing that does the power at that point on the Revo map.
Revo bleed n & advance

 

[arad85]

Anything is possible. TBH, I wouldn't mix and match.... Too many variables for my liking. There appears to only be one NI APR dealer, based in Co. Antrim. Is that the one you used?

 

[xpoweruk]

I Not sure why ya think I am in NI,but I am in Liverpool area.,but the APR FV4 is still the latest map available (( I am that sad that I read too many threads lol )

 

[arad85]

GarethS4 is in NI... Do keep up XP

 

[xpoweruk]

It's hard to keep up after this many

 

[arad85]

Lightweight....

 

[xpoweruk]

 

[Dippy]

Going back to the "is 1+ the same as 2" debate, the first benchmark is what does the tuner in question get from a stage 1, i.e. just an ECU remap to stop boost bleed. APR quote 444CHP (450PS) on 98RON. REVO quote 400-415PS. MRC typically get around 440PS. Both APR and MRC clearly show that this peak is above the redline (i.e. including a TCU remap). I'm not sure if REVO's figure is based on stock TCU remap. It might also not include air intake mods. Nevertheless clearly the engine is capable of 440-450PS with stock pulleys.

The next stage is to increase the crank to supercharger rotation ratio so that there is more boost at any given rpm. The standard method used by most US tuners including APR, but also by REVO, is to put a smaller supercharger pulley on. Typically this reduces the 63.25mm OEM size to about 57mm, increasing the stock ratio from 2.56 to 2.84. However MRC have always replaced the crank pulley instead, and their stage 2 increase it from the 162.06mm stock size to 189mm. This increases the stock ratio from 2.56 to 2.99.

APR's stage 2 figure is 458CHP (464PS) and REVO quotes 425-448PS. MRC typically get around 465-485PS.

 

[razza1]

I think DSG cars with stage 2 tunes need the gearbox mapped as well to make the quoted stage 2 figures and give the big bump over stage 1

Not correct, mine had RR over 470 with no gearbox map. The exhaust makes only minor differences if upgrading, but you know if you're stage 2+ (air intake upgrade, lightweight pulley and remap). Immensely quick...if it doesn't feel like that than it's the map that's not right on the car


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[Cerbera9]

Not correct, mine had RR over 470 with no gearbox map. The exhaust makes only minor differences if upgrading, but you know if you're stage 2+ (air intake upgrade, lightweight pulley and remap). Immensely quick...if it doesn't feel like that than it's the map that's not right on the car


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Good figures but I think your exception rather than the rule as most need the extra rpm from the grearbox map to make the power
Which tune do you have? Do you have a dyno print out, would be interested to see?

 

[razza1]

It was MRC stage 2+, there was a dyno with it, it's pretty std to get those figures from MRC


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[xpoweruk]

Doesn't the b8 Stronic have a 7K limit ? the B8.5 a 6.5k ?

 

[Chop.]

I know it revs higher in dynamic and man but i can remember what, i'll check on my way home in the morning

 

[8BallAddict]

Mine is limited to 7k in a remapped B8. Was 6.5k stock I believe.

 

[Dippy]

@razza1 is correct for the B8 - it doesn't NEED a gearbox remap to make peak power. As @xpoweruk points out, the B8.5 has a lower redline in stock form and so without a gearbox remap it can't achieve peak tuned power, however the difference is not great - typically only 5-10PS. But of course a gearbox remap will maximise time spent at/near peak power and that's what really helps performance.

 

[Chop.]

B8 stage 1 400bhp around 15psi from my gauge

No gearbox map, changes up at 7k

 

[Cerbera9]

I thought the Stock B8 Manual had a 7k-7.2K limit the Stock b8 Stronic had a 6.8K limit ? the Stock B8.5 Stronic a 6.5k limit? and then Stronic's once gearbox mapped would have a 7k limit to be closer to the manuals and make similar power?

 

[Chop.]

It's deff not 6.5k could possibly be 6.8 but it's hard to watch the needle is too quick

 

[arad85]

I have a B8.5 CREC engine with APR gearbox tune. Stock red line is 6.4k, unlocked, redline is ~7.4k. As torque is falling above ~4k (in my case) you don't get many more horses (I'd say ~10 judging by what I have in front of me 6.4k->7.4k). What you get is longer without a gear change.

 

[Craig Norquay]

I can confirm what Razza said about the power. I've not long had it down to MRC for a gearbox map and it pulled 465 in pretty warm weather. Messed around with it and gave it a gearbox map, now makes 486

 

[xpoweruk]

It's deff not 6.5k could possibly be 6.8 but it's hard to watch the needle is too quick

6.8K may well be on the button,I know it was pretty close (if not the same) as the 6MT

 

[Cerbera9]

@razza1 is correct for the B8 - it doesn't NEED a gearbox remap to make peak power. As @xpoweruk points out, the B8.5 has a lower redline in stock form and so without a gearbox remap it can't achieve peak tuned power, however the difference is not great - typically only 5-10PS. But of course a gearbox remap will maximise time spent at/near peak power and that's what really helps performance.

Agreed it certainly helps exploit the extra performance from the mapping......The other thing I was told by MRC was that as part of the gearbox map the clamping force on the DSG clutches is increased to handle the extra torque produced from the stage 2 map thus preventing clutch slip and premature clutch wear?

 

[arad85]

Yup, gearbox tunes do a number of things. APR's is described on their web page: http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/tcu_upgrade_dl501_30t.html Thought it worth posting as you can see there's a lot that can be done with a TCU - other vendors are available

I can confirm that my gearbox seems faster, smoother and has a different (and better!) kickdown pattern since I've had the upgrade. I also had the 034 transmission mount insert added at the same time which helps with smoothness from what I understand.