So the BMW diesels are soooooooooooo superior to Audi's?

coupe-se

Registered User
I've read certain people bleating on here about how superior the BMW diesel engines are to the Audi/VW group diesels.

On the subject of BMW diesel economy, my local dealer (when I looked at a 1 series for the inlaws [honest!!]) warned me not to expect book figures for the mpg and they were advsing customers of this due to the volume of people complaining that the cars they sold were not achieving the stated figures.

This thread makes for an interesting read regarding BMW diesel engine failures: http://www.bmwland.co.uk/talker/viewtopic.php?t=53451&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Another reason for me to NOT buy a 3 series rep mobile no matter what its guise.
 

leecs3

thinking about stuff
BMW don't have a V12 Diesel, W16 QuadTurbo, V10 BiTurbo, 1.4 turbo+supercharged engines in there parts cupboard. To me they've got nothing to hold a candle to VAG engineering.
 

sat1983

Registered User
To be fair to BMW they have some fantastic engines- wether it be petrol or diesel and have recently won engine of the year- I think it was the twin turbo diesel seen in the 123d.
See:http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/categories.html
As much as I defend VAG engines to death, they have their fare share of problems for some people too- and I do think in terms of power & economy BMW are a step ahead of VAG.
Still- I not only buy my car for reliability but for style too, and for this, Audi wins (imo of course).
 

PNH80

Low life livin' the high life.
Lets be honest, Audi have only just got their game together when it comes to good diesel engines and are finally ploughing some of their vast financial resources into pushing the technology forward.
Your average man doesn't give a monkeys about bi turbo V10 diesel engines in the lemans car. Lets get real shall we....Just show me a good diesel engine i can spec for MY car. Not ridiculous concept cars and exotica.
BMW have been way ahead for a good few years but apparently with the new Audi common rail engines there isn't much daylight between them anymore.
I still won't buy a diesel car at this point as i still don't like the sound although they are so much more refined now. If i did go for a diesel it'd be the BMW 330d coupe. The Audi 3.0TDI unit is a great engine by all accounts....but not quite there yet.
 

SteveTDCi

Registered User
i'm not a BMW fan but you cannot knock there engines or how they get the right combination of power and emissions from them, having said that I still think Ford engines for the mass market work well.
 

newbiecrg

windsurfer
Audi or VAG diesels where well ahead in the glorious days of the 1.9TDI in all its versions until the 150bhp... These days BMW diesels are among the best you can buy. BMW is one of the only car manufacturers that provides very good mechanics and driver involvement. Great engines no matter what size or fuel. If it wasn't for styling I would have gone BMW long time ago. The only think Audi has better than BMW is the quattro system (torsen or haldex) BMW does have a AWD but I assume it is not refined/developed as the Audi.

So in fairness yes... BMW has better engineering... But it is true that new generation of engines is good in the VAG world... I would not chose a bmw over an Audi just because of engines or just because 20hp difference for instance...

Pedro
 

mfspen

Registered User
To be fair to BMW they have some fantastic engines- wether it be petrol or diesel and have recently won engine of the year- I think it was the twin turbo diesel seen in the 123d.

Compared to the VAG PD engines, the BMW diesels are much better in terms of smoothness and refinement, but that is no longer the case with the new VAG common rail engines.

Auto Express recently did a shootout between the BMW 123D Coupe and the new TT 2.0TDI 170. They noted that the new 170 CR diesel was smooth and refined right from idle to red line, whereas the BMW engine sounded like a bag of spanners at idle !
 

Amchlolor

Registered User
Auto Express recently did a shootout between the BMW 123D Coupe and the new TT 2.0TDI 170. They noted that the new 170 CR diesel was smooth and refined right from idle to red line, whereas the BMW engine sounded like a bag of spanners at idle !

Yet the 123D engine puts out 34bhp more and produces less Co2.

Taking pleasure in the fact they say it sounds a bit noisier at idle is clutching at straws of the highest magnitude!:laugh:

The simple fact of the matter is that BMW are making superior diesels.
That's not just my opinion, it's stone cold fact.
Go compare their power/torque/Co2 figures.

With regard to mpg, I'm getting more mpg (averaging 45mpg) from my 200bhp BMW diesel than I did from my 140bhp Audi diesel.
Again, stone cold fact.

The Audi is quieter at tickover...LOL....whoop-dee-doooo!:applaus::thumbsup::lmfao:
 

sat1983

Registered User
The TT is lighter though- and is 0.5 seconds behind the BMW- hardly worth mentionning. And the TT looks miiiiiiiiiiiles better than the BM coupe!
 

mfspen

Registered User
The simple fact of the matter is that BMW are making superior diesels.
That's not just my opinion, it's stone cold fact.
Go compare their power/torque/Co2 figures.

Not really.
The 170 is single turbo, and only produces more CO2 because it doesn't use the artificial stop-start manipulation of the figures.

With regard to mpg, I'm getting more mpg (averaging 45mpg) from my 200bhp BMW diesel than I did fr:lmfao:om my 140bhp Audi diesel.

Again, not a valid comparison.
You are comparing a modern CR engine with an ancient PD engine.

You may not like it, but Audi have caught up !
 

Matt

Registered User
In an ideal world I would want the economy and emissions levels of the BMW engines with the styling of the Audi.

But I will settle for less MPG and higher emissions as I prefer Audis styling and interiors.

Not that I rate Auto Express as being the bible when it comes to road tests but they did rate the TT diesel over the 123d overall.
 

newbiecrg

windsurfer
Exactly.... low CO2 figures are there not because engine is better but because of the start stop trickery...

Audi diesels are as good as BM... PSA group diesels are also very good as are Renault diesels... The latest two might not be the most performance diesels but tech wise they don't really fall short of Audi or BM....

Pedro
 

newbiecrg

windsurfer
In an ideal world I would want the economy and emissions levels of the BMW engines with the styling of the Audi.

Ideal world.... engine and chassis of a BMW, gearbox from Honda, design from Alfa and perceived interior quality from Audi!!! Of course at FIAT prices!!!

Pedro
 

mfspen

Registered User
Not that I rate Auto Express as being the bible when it comes to road tests but they did rate the TT diesel over the 123d overall.

Yes indeed.

Interestingly, Autocar did a recent test of the new Alpina D3 Coupe, which also has the 123D engine. They also commented on how rattly it was.
 

marriedblonde

Registered User
Ideal world.... engine and chassis of a BMW, gearbox from Honda, design from Alfa and perceived interior quality from Audi!!! Of course at FIAT prices!!!

Pedro

Nicely said that man!
 

marriedblonde

Registered User
I've read certain people bleating on here about how superior the BMW diesel engines are to the Audi/VW group diesels.

On the subject of BMW diesel economy, my local dealer (when I looked at a 1 series for the inlaws [honest!!]) warned me not to expect book figures for the mpg and they were advsing customers of this due to the volume of people complaining that the cars they sold were not achieving the stated figures.

This thread makes for an interesting read regarding BMW diesel engine failures: http://www.bmwland.co.uk/talker/viewtopic.php?t=53451&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Another reason for me to NOT buy a 3 series rep mobile no matter what its guise.

So how many people on here make book figures for economy? In any of the audi range? Not many guess I would say veryb just do a search on mpg to verify my point.

Yep there is a common fault with a plastic part of the intake but I'm assuming your only bringing this up as all audi's are 100% reliable? There seems to be quite a few with commond faults, steering racks, knocking suspension, drinking oil... Seems like BMW are not the only one with faults in their cars.

But nice try at yet another bmw/Audi ******* competition.

J.
 

marriedblonde

Registered User
In an ideal world I would want the economy and emissions levels of the BMW engines with the styling of the Audi.

But I will settle for less MPG and higher emissions as I prefer Audis styling and interiors.

Not that I rate Auto Express as being the bible when it comes to road tests but they did rate the TT diesel over the 123d overall.

It going to ber a personal thing though isn't it. I dont really bother with these kind of artuicles to get an overall winner. If the writer knows they are going to be sent off to some car launch the following week they are going to rate that marques car higher etc so that they can reap the benefits.

J.
 

Amchlolor

Registered User
Yes indeed.
Interestingly, Autocar did a recent test of the new Alpina D3 Coupe, which also has the 123D engine. They also commented on how rattly it was.

So is that it then?
Is that all they had to say about it, or have you pretty much picked out the only negative comment you could find, to suit your argument?

This is what the same magazine had to say about the new A4, fitted with the new CR diesel engine.

No question, this A4 is an improvement over the old in terms of engine refinement, ride, handling, packaging, fuel economy and feature availability. Yet it’s hard to avoid concluding that this car is not enough of a step forward over the old A4, especially as Audi has gone to the expense of developing a new platform for it.
It is not good enough to topple the 3-series.
 

newbiecrg

windsurfer
Is there admission fees or should I just get popcorn?

Pedro
 

PNH80

Low life livin' the high life.
My mates Astra SRI sounds quieter at idle than my 2.0TFSI quattro. Hmm, sometimes maybe it's best to put up with a little extra tinkle and rattle for a better product?
Lets not be naive, we all know there's SOOO much more to a car than the engine sound at idle.
 

mfspen

Registered User
My mates Astra SRI sounds quieter at idle than my 2.0TFSI quattro. Hmm, sometimes maybe it's best to put up with a little extra tinkle and rattle for a better product?
Lets not be naive, we all know there's SOOO much more to a car than the engine sound at idle.

True, but the key point is, that the new Audi diesels are just as good as anything the competition can produce.
 

Amchlolor

Registered User
True, but the key point is, that the new Audi diesels are just as good as anything the competition can produce.

What criteria?
As I've already stated several times, and seems to have been conveniently ignored, the new Audi CR diesel is only available with 143bhp, which is pish poor.
I don't care if it's arguably more refined than a BMW diesel, I wouldn't want to drive a 143bhp A4.
Would you??
 

PNH80

Low life livin' the high life.
True, but the key point is, that the new Audi diesels are just as good as anything the competition can produce.

I'm sure they are although had it not been for BMW pushing the boundries of diesel technology in 'real world' road cars, not concept exotica, and to be honest making equivalent Audi units look a bit embarrassing in comparison would Audi have ever got their finger out and pushed on themselves?
Don't get me wrong, credit to Audi for finally making a good range of diesel engines and catching up with the petrol units....At the prices they charge it should have happened a long time ago though. Why should you charge prestige prices and put an engine in the front which is no better than anything by ford or vauxhall?? When thats the case, the whole 'vorsprung durch technic' thing wears a bit thin. BMW realised that and put their money where their mouth is a long time before Audi.
Although to be fair VAG were probably putting research funds into the Veyron or the V10 lemans car at the time.... Very useful to the every day car buyer eh?
 

Amchlolor

Registered User
170 bhp coming to a town near you in a couple of months time.

Again, it's too little, too late.
BMW have had 143bhp/177bhp diesels available for ages now, in the 3 series.
143/177/204bhp already available in the 1 series.
Only a matter of time until the 204bhp twin turbo makes it into the 3 series too, meanin 143/177/204 there too.
So Audi are, irrefutably, always chasing, rather than taking any leads.
 

h5djr

Registered User
VCDS Map User
Gold Supporter
I don't care if it's arguably more refined than a BMW diesel, I wouldn't want to drive a 143bhp A4.
Would you??

Probably not, but then I wouldn't want to drive an A4 or a BME 3-series anyway. Neither is available with a DSG at the moment!!!. Both cars are aimed at the company car driver and whilst we may think 143bhp is not enough I sure there are many drivers out there would would be more than happy with it. I'm sure to a lot of drivers comfort is much more important than large amounts of bhp, which is why both cars sell so well in the sector they are aimed at.

I wonder which model sells the most in each range? Probably a fairly modest version. A4 2.0TDI and BMW 320d at a guess.
 

TFSI

Born to Fish
Have a listen to a MAN D26 540 bhp Common Rail and it will put your Audi and BMW Diesels to shame :aggressive::aggressive: Plus it,s good for over a million K's
 

coupe-se

Registered User
But nice try at yet another bmw/Audi ******* competition.

J.

The god like status that some attribute to the BMW on here is amusing and here we have plenty of BMW engines going BANG in a big way. Cue Mr Bowfer puffing away nicely at the BMW bandwagon on the Audi forum again, job done!! LOL :moa:


Sorry for expressing an opinion on here, I do realise some of you think you have more right to post and express an opinion than others. Again humble aplologies for poking my nose in your private club. :Flush:
 

PNH80

Low life livin' the high life.
I just find the A4 miserably dull in any guise other than RS4. I've driven one several times including the convertible and it NEVER makes you want to push it and drive quickly. It is a rep mobile...no doubt about it, and now it's even bigger.
Never mind refining and refining and refining cars...how about make them lively and fun to drive for god sake?!
 

PNH80

Low life livin' the high life.
The god like status that some attribute to the BMW on here is amusing and here we have plenty of BMW engines going BANG in a big way. Cue Mr Bowfer puffing away nicely at the BMW bandwagon on the Audi forum again, job done!! LOL :moa:


Sorry for expressing an opinion on here, I do realise some of you think you have more right to post and express an opinion than others. Again humble aplologies for poking my nose in your private club. :Flush:

Mate, no offence but don't whine about it or take offence, if you feel you have a legitimate, correct argument then air it. I'm sure Bowfer and anyone else is enough of a man to conceid when they're wrong and see your point if you have one.
Thats the beauty of an open forum.

There's more to a car than just the engine anyway, the 1 series probably has a better range of engines than the A3 anyway (petrol and diesel) but i think the 1 series has a 'poor man's 3 series' image and looks like someone stuck a broom handle up it's ****.... awful looking thing. Therefore it could be technically phenomenal but i'd never touch one. You have to choose with your heart, not your head at some point.

Paul.
 

newbiecrg

windsurfer
1-series is really ***** for price paid!!!! have you close the door? a FIAT sounds much better! I don't care if it has a jet engine!!! Quality of assembly is far miles from my S3. And this is fact!

Pedro
 

rodenal

Registered User
In regards to the OP - book figures are almost always nonsense and very few people will make the quoted figures with any diesel regardless of manufacturer, so i'm not surprised about that.
The BMW failures are well documented although BMW have decided to ignore the problem puplicly(although they changed the part in 2004 so it's only pre- 04 cars that are affected.)The actual cars themselves, unfortunately i far prefer any bmw diesel (120d, 320/330d or 530d) to any vag unit.
The vad tdi's only really make sense in a vw or seat/skoda as they arent asking the same premium as audi, who are running with what is currently a very limited diesel engine range when compared to BMW.
Even when looking at volkswagen, unfortunately the likes of Ford/Vauxhall have caught up and indeed overtaken on the common rail diesel front.To whoever posted about the astra SRI, the 1.9 120 or 150 - better engine and a better driving car than the 140 in the A3 im afraid, it's just perceived quality getting to you, the materials inside arent bad either, especially considering the cost of the product.
 

bacardi

Registered User
Probably not, but then I wouldn't want to drive an A4 or a BME 3-series anyway. Neither is available with a DSG at the moment!!!. Both cars are aimed at the company car driver and whilst we may think 143bhp is not enough I sure there are many drivers out there would would be more than happy with it. I'm sure to a lot of drivers comfort is much more important than large amounts of bhp, which is why both cars sell so well in the sector they are aimed at.
.

I think that's the problem though, if they are aimed at the company car drivers, Audi have usually missed the trick because of their relatively high Co2 compared to BMW

I'm with you on DSG though ,although EVO have a review of the new DCT in the BMW M3 - which looks quite promising, lets hope they roll it out across the range :)
 
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