Scratching the itch for a project. (B5 1.8TQS)

[Niall.Perry]

So here's the start to hopefully a long build thread (a long time...this is going to be a slow thread) of my recently bought 1.8t QTS B5.

The Story: (Long-winded)
As it goes, after a few consecutive boring weekends I decided I needed something to do in my spare time, I thought it would be good to go on track days and a good new hobby to get into. Initially and stupidly I thought 'simple and easy enough to do, buy a cheap car, strip it out, get a roll cage, a few little other bits. Sorted!'.

After a couple more weeks of the idea floating about in my head it was still just that, a stupid idea that was probably never going to happen and was just really looking out of curiosity. Decided if I were to buy a track car it would have to be AWD, manual, petrol and at least 2.0L upwards unless turbo'd. Narrowing it down to awd I was looking at either a Subaru or VAG group platform. Obviously needing it to be as cheap as possible but not being keen on A3's I started looking on eBay. There were 2 cars I was watching at the time, A4 1.8TQS and a MK4 Golf VR6 4Motion (non R32). At that moment it was 'I'd probably get something like that if I were to get a track car', I'd just been paid and was on the way home from a job looked at the time and thought 'one of the auctions finishes soon' so pulled into the next services and checked my phone. 3 Minutes left currently at £180 no reserve!! Feeling flush since it's just been pay day, I stupidly put in a max bid of £500 thinking it was worth it.

Auction ends and I am sat in McDonalds car park with a grin on my face as I'm highest bidder at £365!

Thinking I've made a mistake as I remember the car is 150+ Miles away, I haven't seen it, it has 1 month MOT and of course....no log book.

Trying to wrap the story up I went to see the car, had a little drive all seemed well. Came with 2 spare headlights in really good condition, a spare tyre with about 7mm tread. All was well in the end, received a spare key in the post from previous owner a week or 2 later and the log book a week after that.

Good Points:
- Love how the car drives, really smooth no knocks/bangs.
- Handles well for an old car, really makes a difference compared to my standard Golf.
- 180bhp for £365.
- Bargain!
- QUATTRO!

Bad Points:
- Interior isn't in great shape (it's old and done 170k what can you expect), it has a luxury sparkling diamond roof liner (it's held up by lots of staples that annoyingly reflect light).
- Volume control doesn't work on stereo, it's either on or off.
- Needs an ABS sensor and a rear spring.
- Quattro....I now don't want to buy another fwd car again.

Plot twist.....After driving the car home and realising how surprisingly quite it is in the cabin for such an old car and after washing and tidying it up I decided I didn't have the heart to destroy it for a track car. The plan now is more of a restoration/OEM look with more power (350-400Bhp).

Not got many images at the moment....

I will keep updating when I have anymore progress.

Thanks

*I Love the cactus green!!*

 

[Mossey0708]

Great result. Like the rims and the colour!

 

[Niall.Perry]

Thanks, still quite impressed with it overall. Even came with a full size spare. Winner!

 

[Oranoco]

Nice car for sod all money. Good effort

 

[Niall.Perry]

Nice car for sod all money. Good effort

Yeah, got lucky really I was expecting it to need a lot of work when I got it back but all has been well pretty much.

 

[Niall.Perry]

Latest Purchase (Brakes):
After driving the car round for 2 weeks I can honestly say there's only 1 thing I wasn't very happy with and that's the brakes....or lack of them. I don't know if the brakes just weren't designed as strong when the car was made because my dad has 2001 A6 and the brakes seem really under powered on that too, or if it's just because the calipers need replacing (I bought it with new pads all round). Either way I thought I'd look at replacing the Calipers, I looked at some standard Calipers but brand new they were ridiculous money. I think the rears were around £160/180 each!!

I thought if I'm spending that much money I may as well look at upgrading the brakes all round as they will need doing eventually anyway. I was determined to get some 4 Pots for the rear and big 6 pots for the front. (Yeah maybe a little overkill....bigger the better and all that). After a few weeks searching I finally bought some 2nd hand 4 pot Porsche Cayenne calipers for £100 which I thought was a good deal! They look in good condition and I'm pretty sure they'd be ready to use as they are but I want to send them off to get refurbished and colour coded to match the cactus green. (Heinz soup tin for size reference aha).


I was planning on using these calipers on the rear but stupidly I completely forgot about the Handbrake, I've seen people use these calipers beofore on the rear but on track cars/cars that don't need a handbrake. As I'm going for a sort of 'Daily/Sleeper/OEM' look I don't want to lose the handbrake function. I decided it'd be easy enough to install these calipers and also keep my stock calipers just for the handbrake if I could get a custom mount/adapter made, something like on these.


Unfortunately getting some adapters custom made to fit up perfectly is something that seems is going to take a lot of work and trial and error so is unlikely I am going to get this done now. That said I think I'm swaying towards the idea of putting these on the front with some bigger discs as this seems a fairly straight forward upgrade. Then for the back possibly some rs4/rs6 rear calipers, as I said earlier I initially wanted 4 pots on the rear but if the smaller rear calipers are good enough for an rs4 then they should be good enough for an A4....or so I hope.

 

[Samuel c5 Q]

Good steal for 100 scoops. What size of discs do they allow for then?

Nice wee wagon for the dough by the way.

 

[Niall.Perry]

Good steal for 100 scoops. What size of discs do they allow for then?

Yeah I thought so too, can't remember what they were actually up for but managed to get him down to £100. And I'm not sure what range in sizes they will take but I believe on the cayenne the stock disc size they go with is 330mm.

 

[aragorn]

you need to be very careful mixing and matching brake components. Its very much not the case of just buying some "4 pot" calipers and making them fit the upright...

There are no 4 pot cayenne calipers that will work properly on a B5. The front 4 pots from later touaregs have pistons that are far too large for the A4 master cylinder to deal with. The rear 4 pots (which is probably what you have) have pistons that are far too small to be used on the front of any car.

Dont reinvent the wheel, there are a few tried and tested upgrades using parts that are known to work.

Almost all upgrades will require you to swap to either S4 uprights, or the later alloy ones from C5 or B6 models.

Most basic upgrade is the 320mm disk and single piston ATE slider from either an A6 allroad, or a B7 with a big engine. These are very cheap, £30-50 per caliper and the disks are peanuts.
Going larger you can use the calipers and disks from a B6 or B7 S4, which use the same ATE slider as above, but use a 345mm disk.
Going more expensive, you can look at the Q5 brembos, which are a bolt on swap (and come in either 320 or 345mm fitment), or the 18Z front calipers from a cayenne/touareg, which are an almost bolt on swap and use a 345mm disk.

For the rear, again there are a few options.
255 and 280mm brakes from the B6/7 models can be used with some minor tweaking and are very cheap.
300mm rears from the B6/7 S4 can be used either with an adaptor bracket and B5 S4 facelift calipers, or the proper B6/7 S4 rear caliper and a bit of tweak


Also remember, fitting giant brakes that you dont need doesnt make you faster, it adds unneccesary unsprung weight and rotating mass.

 

[Broonie]

I'm in the middle of fitting the cayenne rear 4 pots to the rear of my S4, I already have the 18z 6 pots on the front and have the brembo handbrake calipers to go with the rear 4 pots,

Fortunately I have a few mates that are machinists and they're keen to make up the brackets for my rear setup

As aragorn said I wouldn't be fitting those 4 pots to the front of the car then fitting standard single piston calipers to the rear, it will upset the balance and probably be worse for braking

Keep an eye on ebay for the q7/Touareg/cayenne front 6 pots for a decent price and do the whole lot

 

[aragorn]

the rear 4 pot calipers have about half the piston area of the typical front caliper. that means the generate about half the braking force.

 

[Niall.Perry]

you need to be very careful mixing and matching brake components. Its very much not the case of just buying some "4 pot" calipers and making them fit the upright...

There are no 4 pot cayenne calipers that will work properly on a B5. The front 4 pots from later touaregs have pistons that are far too large for the A4 master cylinder to deal with. The rear 4 pots (which is probably what you have) have pistons that are far too small to be used on the front of any car.

Dont reinvent the wheel, there are a few tried and tested upgrades using parts that are known to work.

Almost all upgrades will require you to swap to either S4 uprights, or the later alloy ones from C5 or B6 models.

Most basic upgrade is the 320mm disk and single piston ATE slider from either an A6 allroad, or a B7 with a big engine. These are very cheap, £30-50 per caliper and the disks are peanuts.
Going larger you can use the calipers and disks from a B6 or B7 S4, which use the same ATE slider as above, but use a 345mm disk.
Going more expensive, you can look at the Q5 brembos, which are a bolt on swap (and come in either 320 or 345mm fitment), or the 18Z front calipers from a cayenne/touareg, which are an almost bolt on swap and use a 345mm disk.

For the rear, again there are a few options.
255 and 280mm brakes from the B6/7 models can be used with some minor tweaking and are very cheap.
300mm rears from the B6/7 S4 can be used either with an adaptor bracket and B5 S4 facelift calipers, or the proper B6/7 S4 rear caliper and a bit of tweak


Also remember, fitting giant brakes that you dont need doesnt make you faster, it adds unneccesary unsprung weight and rotating mass.

One Word...****. aha that's why you don't rush into buying things because you think you've found a good deal. Although in my defence I did originally plan on fitting them to the rear but I don't think I could do without the handbrake. I was also hoping to not have to replace the uprights for S4 ones but I suppose it isn't really a big deal it's a fairly easy job. As I mentioned I was originally wanting 6 pots on the front so I had my eye on a couple of 17z and 18z calipers but didn't end up buying any. That would be my ideal setup for the front anyway, do you need the S4 uprights for this conversion?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-Q5-2...957062?hash=item4d5e8fb106:g:G2kAAOSwpINZYyfT
Is this one of the calipers you mean?

I'm in the middle of fitting the cayenne rear 4 pots to the rear of my S4, I already have the 18z 6 pots on the front and have the brembo handbrake calipers to go with the rear 4 pots,

Fortunately I have a few mates that are machinists and they're keen to make up the brackets for my rear setup

As aragorn said I wouldn't be fitting those 4 pots to the front of the car then fitting standard single piston calipers to the rear, it will upset the balance and probably be worse for braking

Keep an eye on ebay for the q7/Touareg/cayenne front 6 pots for a decent price and do the whole lot

The rear setup you're working on is exactly what I wanted!....until I saw how expensive the brembo handbrake calipers are! So I was wondering if you could keep your original caliper on and use just as a handbrake? Personally I don't see why not with a custom adapter but then again I think I've shown I need to do quite a bit more reading on this subject. I suppose I didn't realise the differene in braking force between fewer large pistons and more smaller pistons. Also if you do get the adapter made and up and running I think I know someone that would purchase a set of those adapters

 

[Samuel c5 Q]

I'd say that it would be tight enough on the rear hub with one caliper. The two might be a bit of a handful not to mention extra weight and complication maintenance wise.

 

[Niall.Perry]

I'd say that it would be tight enough on the rear hub with one caliper. The two might be a bit of a handful not to mention extra weight and complication maintenance wise.

I forgot to say I'll be getting 19" wheels so I don't think space will be an issue but like you say it's a lot of extra weight but then again I'm sure the varying weight between different alloys is more than the weight of a caliper. But I suppose it all adds up, 2 calipers, bigger disc, heavier adapter, and no doubt the wheels will be heavier too.

 

[Niall.Perry]

Unless you mean it being tight where the adapter fits to the hub not just wheel clearance. Still don't see it being too much of an issue if it's been done on an A3

 

[Samuel c5 Q]

I thinking of shafts being close to hub carriers and control arms and dust shields near brake lines and handbrake cables. Does the cost and effort justify an bigger braking advantage of the other s4/rs4 calipers?

On another note, a fella from work converted his sierra to hydraulic handbrake as well as being functioning service brakes during normal driving. Is it possible to have the lever with a latch so that it locks for a park brake function? It may will put extra pressure on the seals being engaged for longer than normal periods of time but if you're prepared to service them more regularly it may be a cleaner, lighter, cheaper option.

 

[Broonie]

The jaguar s type r uses a brembo handbrake caliper though it's a thinner non vented disc, this is easy sorted if you know a machinist though, I paid £60 for my pair of handbrake calipers, £80 for the rear 4 pots and £200 for the 18zs so can be done for sensible money, I did spend another £100 on the 18z's having them blasted and powder coated then rebuilt with new seals

Fabless manufacturing sell a bracket setup for the rear 4 pots but using an aftermarket willwood or hispec spot caliper, I decided against that as they are not rated for the weight of the S4, annoyingly they won't sell the 4 pot relocating bracket on its own though so I'm having some made up, could probably have a few sets made up once I'm happy with the fitting and if there was enough interest

 

[aragorn]

The extra pistons in a 4 pot (or 6/8pot etc) dont actually give you more clamping force. What they do is use 4 smaller pistons than you'd get in a single piston caliper, and thus the active piston area stays the same. The main advantage of a fixed caliper, is that the caliper is more rigid, which improves braking feel. Theres also some fancy things you can do with staggered pistons to even up the clamping force on the brake pad, but not all 4pots do that.

If your selecting a different caliper, you should calculate its piston area and compare with the stock calipers to ensure the area stays about the same.

The Q5 caliper linked is one of the options, but i believe that ones only for 320mm disks. the 345 ones seem pretty rare at the moment. They are only about £500 new from audi though. They're also an easier fit than the 18Z's as they fit right on the upright rather than needing special bolts to adapt the fitment, and use proper Audi disks rather than having to modify merc disks to fit.

I dont think hydraulic handbrakes are road legal. Or at least, the car must have a working parking brake, and it must be seperately actuated, and thus you cant just use the same hydraulic system as the main rear brakes.

 

[Niall.Perry]

I thinking of shafts being close to hub carriers and control arms and dust shields near brake lines and handbrake cables. Does the cost and effort justify an bigger braking advantage of the other s4/rs4 calipers?

On another note, a fella from work converted his sierra to hydraulic handbrake as well as being functioning service brakes during normal driving. Is it possible to have the lever with a latch so that it locks for a park brake function? It may will put extra pressure on the seals being engaged for longer than normal periods of time but if you're prepared to service them more regularly it may be a cleaner, lighter, cheaper option.

Yeah to be fair probably doesn't justify the bigger brakes over the s4/rs4 calipers just think it'd be a cool setup and something a little different. Then again different isn't always a good idea.
And also the hydraulic handbrake I suppose would be okay for short term use but I wouldn't like to have it on for a long time, not to mention not being legal so MOT time might be an issue.

The jaguar s type r uses a brembo handbrake caliper though it's a thinner non vented disc, this is easy sorted if you know a machinist though, I paid £60 for my pair of handbrake calipers, £80 for the rear 4 pots and £200 for the 18zs so can be done for sensible money, I did spend another £100 on the 18z's having them blasted and powder coated then rebuilt with new seals

Fabless manufacturing sell a bracket setup for the rear 4 pots but using an aftermarket willwood or hispec spot caliper, I decided against that as they are not rated for the weight of the S4, annoyingly they won't sell the 4 pot relocating bracket on its own though so I'm having some made up, could probably have a few sets made up once I'm happy with the fitting and if there was enough interest

I thought Brembo only had the one handbrake caliper like on the lambo setup? That's what put me off because of the price of them. How would you make them fit a wider vented disk then? Do you have an A4 or an S4? I'd definitely be interested in one of those brackets if I haven't already sorted a setup by the time you have them. Also what size disc you going for on the back?

Aragorn:
Is there much of an advantage using an s4/rs4 rear caliper from a B5? and do you know this is an easy upgrade?

 

[Broonie]

It's the same caliper they use but they are two piece, the part that comes over edge and front face of disc and holds one of the pads unbolts off, a spacer can be fitted between the two parts or machine up a new outer piece, yeah the Ferrari and lambo prices are ridiculous, there will be other cars that use them too, Aston Martin use one but is slightly different and I think it's one piece although could be wrong

I'll be using b6/7 S4 300mm rear discs with this setup, about the only straight fitting part!

It's an S4 that I have

 

[Niall.Perry]

All sounded great until you said you had an S4, aren't the hub and the mounting points different for the caliper mount/adapter? I'm sure I'd have to swap them out for S4 ones which I think would then mean S4 uprights and changing the driveshaft flange for an S4 one.

 

[Broonie]

Rear upright/hubs are apparently all the same on the b5 quattro models, well I'm hoping they are as I'm using a spare pair of tqs ones from a my breaker to have everything measured up and made

S4/RS4 rear brakes all fit the tqs so I'm 100% sure they're all the same, I think it was aragorn that told me when he was up at the same time he upset me about my alloy front hubs missing their bushes!

 

[Samuel c5 Q]

The b5 s4 and rs4 fit the rear of the c5 1.8t Quattro as well.

 

[Broonie]

Yep it's late c5 a6 front ally uprights I have for the s4, same part number as b5 RS4 as far as I'm aware and a hell of a lot cheaper!

 

[aragorn]

the rear end is the same on all B5 quattros, and the later B6/7 etc calipers also fit

Its only the front uprights that changed.

 

[Niall.Perry]

the rear end is the same on all B5 quattros, and the later B6/7 etc calipers also fit

Its only the front uprights that changed.

So does this mean potentially rear s/rs B6/7 brakes without changing uprights? or did they change to electronic handbrake?

 

[aragorn]

on the rear the B5 S4 or B6/7 stuff fits without changing anything.

Electronic handbrake came in with the B8

 

[Niall.Perry]

on the rear the B5 S4 or B6/7 stuff fits without changing anything.

Electronic handbrake came in with the B8

So only the A4 from the B6/7 not the S4/RS4?

 

[aragorn]

s4 stuff can be used, i described that option above.

Either use the B6 S4 disk with the B5 S4 (facelift) caliper, and a spacer bracket from Trig, or , use the complete B6/7 setup, but it needs around 10mm spacers between the caliper and hub and a bit of a tweak on the handbrake.

 

[Niall.Perry]

Broonie, any update on the brake setup?

 

[Broonie]

Just waiting on the brackets being made up, my mate hasn't had much free time at work to make them, I'm not too sure when he'll manage as he's busy with his hillclimbing mini too

Fabless manufacturing are now willing to sell the 4 pot relocation bracket separate with the braided hoses but they want $270 plus $45 shipping!

If you wanted to use a 330mm rear disc, AK motorsport sell a bracket for that

 

[Niall.Perry]

I've now got myself a donor 1.8T engine from Phil_R, originally I thought I was just going to pick up the bare block but it was the full bottom end so I decided to get the head as well while I was there. All in basically the full engine for £70. The only parts that I will probably be using is the block itself and the head. Think Phil said the engine had done around 170k which is same as the one in the A4 at the moment. I'll be tearing it down and cleaning it up gradually on a night when I have some time.
A few pics of the engine.

 

[Niall.Perry]

The engine is all stripped down and a little cleaned up. I'm still hoping to make this a stroker build but I'm struggling to get hold of a crankshaft. Anyone have any ideas where I might get one? They are from either an ABF or ABA engine which I believe were in the mk2 and mk3 2.0 golf gti.

 

[Samuel c5 Q]

I think tuffty said it was a tfsi crank. I'm not sure what the engine code is but it's from the likes of the 2 ltr vrs or the first of the two litre s3 but don't quote me but I do know it's not the ABA or ABF from the likes of the mk2 Ibiza or mk3 golf.

 

[Niall.Perry]

I'm 99% they are only for the 06A engines. I've got the older 058 engine with Intermediate shaft so I need the older crank from 2.0 N/A GTI's.

 

[Samuel c5 Q]

Right o. I'll have to check that out for my donor engine as well then.

Good work so far, your doing better than I am. My engine isn't even on the engine stand yet. It's still occupied by a 1.9 pd bottom end that needs striped. I don't really want to abandon the pd build as I got all the stuff to do it for a steal but time is not my friend so may have to.

 

[aragorn]

yeh the TFSI bits are 06A/06B platform. A4/A6 AWT engines are 06B, but the earlier cars (AEB/AJL/ANB/APU etc) are all 058.

The 06a/b is in some ways a better engine to convert.

 

[Niall.Perry]

yeh the TFSI bits are 06A/06B platform. A4/A6 AWT engines are 06B, but the earlier cars (AEB/AJL/ANB/APU etc) are all 058.

The 06a/b is in some ways a better engine to convert.

I know the 06A seem to be a lot easier for a stroker if that's what you mean by conversion but I thought it would have been easier to keep an 058 in an 058 car as I'm not sure how 'plug and play' it would be putting an 06A in. Hoping i've made the easier choice but time will tell.

 

[aragorn]

aye thats what i meant.

If you got a 06B from a later A6 or passat, and got all the mounts an anciliaries it would mostly bolt right in.

 

[Niall.Perry]

I didn't know if there were any differences in ECU between the 2 engine types and if there is what you need to do for it to work. In hindsight I should've probably looked at this before buying an engine but it's done now.