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S5 remap & parts recommendations (B8 3.0 V6T)

lincoln_dj Aug 27, 2018

  1. lincoln_dj

    lincoln_dj Active Member VCDS Map User

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    Hi guys,

    Recently bought a 2011 pre-facelift S5 sportback (V6T) and making a bit of a shopping list. Previously had an 8P S3 "stage 2+" 365/391 (mapped by R-Tech) so looking to make similar gains with the S5.

    Firstly, any recommendations on who to get for the remap - seems to be a choice between APR, MRC and Unicorn. Want a "proper" remap, on a dyno, suited to the car - so probably counts out the likes of Revo...
    Any UK location, a day trip is no problem (and part of the fun!).

    Secondly, how far do I need to go, will still be a daily driver but if I can reach the 450hp mark that would be ideal...

    Parts-wise, thinking: Intake, both pulleys, full exhaust (cat-back). Any other parts recommended? Intercooler? etc - ended up changing fuel pump and intercooler on the S3.

    Many thanks in advance!
    Adam.
     
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  3. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    450 is easy.

    Stage 2 will do you.

    Doesn’t need two pulleys, can be done with either. Supercharger drive ratio just needs to be increased. Most tuners limit themselves to 3:1.

    In the uk everyone suggests mrc, seems better value than APR.

    Personally I’ll be going to Litchfield, mostly because of their dyno but also because they did amazing work on all my gt-rs and a few of their staff are ex-Audi master techs. They don’t push their audi stuff much but I’ve seen their results turbocharging R8s and remapping RS6 and RS3s on many occasions.

    Stage 2 preferably requires some intake pipe reworking as the stock set up is restrictive. You’ll need to check if your chosen tuner includes this - it’s an easy extra 15bhp.

    A custom remap stage 2 should seeyou to 470-490.

    Definitely worth reading Dippy’s thread below. I bought my S5 a few weeks ago and am learning through what he’s written.
     
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  4. lincoln_dj

    lincoln_dj Active Member VCDS Map User

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  5. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    The only thing you need for the air intake is a free-flow pipe and air filter. But of course I understand that some people like something to look good too. Ideally there needs to be a bit more cold intake than the OE box allows (MRC drill a hole thru the blanked-off air hole), however from what I have read the open style does not really make much difference.

    Although stage 1 must be good on these cars, I think stage 2 is worth it because of the broad torque curve uplift. Also bear in mind that the OE crank pulley is a known point of failure so replacing it is a good idea. If you need to consider single-piece lightweight vs dampened then there is some info over on Audizine but in general nothing conclusive. MRC has been installing SPLW for years and AFAIK there are no problem reports. I preferred the vdamper for peace of mind. Stage 2 does really need the intake mods.

    Is yours 6MT or s-tronic? If the latter then due to the higher rev limit than the B8.5 it does not benefit as much from a remap, however consider that most TCU tunes will also bring increased clutchpack clamping force and slightly improved gearchange speed. Also worth considering if you want the shift points changed. The MRC TCU remap does not change shift points which is a bit of a shame.

    Finally (if yours is s-tronic) I assume you already researched about DL501 reliablity and servicing?
     
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  6. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    Sorry - didn't read your post fully.

    Dual-pulley: No need. You can achieve any drive ratio you need with just the crank pulley.
    Exhaust: No significant power gain - do that just for noise (if that's your thing).
    Charge cooler: Depends on your driving. I have stock cooling and have no problem (I am monitoring temps), although supposedly the intercooling is better on the gen2 CREC engine. If you want to go straight to a >3 ratio, or going to track (or very fast road) then it might be worth uprating.

    For reference mine peaked about 475bhp on MRC's dyno.
     
  7. lincoln_dj

    lincoln_dj Active Member VCDS Map User

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    Thanks for the reply Dippy.

    I'm happy with the OEM exhaust sound, my boy-racer days are well behind me - so that'll certainly save a few quid!

    Will defo go stage 2. Happy to go with the damped pulleys too, I also like being on the safe side! Will doing both pulleys not achieve anything over and above doing just the crank pulley then?

    Since I'll be saving on the exhaust I'll upgrade the cooling then, just to be on the safe side (again!).

    MRC is starting to look like the favoured option. Definitely want someone with a proper dyno - no guesses!

    Have seen the DL501 stuff. Got fluid change planned as soon as I'm back home (working in Ghana currently). Tend to think that sort of stuff can be a lottery anyway though. I'll just keep on top of servicing and cross that bridge if/when it fails.
     
  8. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    No point doing dual pulley.

    People do dual pulley because everyone takes the supercharger pulley to 57mm which limits the ratio. You may as well just make the crank pulley bigger and leave the supercharger stock.

    If doing the supercharger, you can choose any size and hence any ratio you like in one go.

    I’ve just bought a 195mm pulley to go with the fluid damper. If you order today you can possibly jump into the same batch as me as they only machine them when there’s enough demand to warrant the cnc set up. That’s right now.

    Not cheap. Any of the sizes of v damper you’ll want will cost you $1000 alone inc shipping. Bear in mind you could just drive in to mrc and have their one piece crank pulley as part of your full stage 2 for £1800 fitted inc mapping etc.

    I’m pushing the limit of this 3:1 ratio as I remain unconvinced that supercharger speed alone will not cause super charger clutch slip. I say this because you can run the larger ratio pulleys without a remap, the ecu will simply bleed off the extra boost produced.

    You don’t need to worry about the paragraph above as only 2014ish onwards cars equipped with the newer CREC engine (looks different under the bonnet) even have a supercharger clutch.
     
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  9. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    @lincoln_dj - info on pulleys and drive ratio as follows (expanding on @Adamantium 's response):
    Stock crank pulley is 162.06mm dia. Stock supercharger pulley is 63.25mm dia. So ratio is 2.56.
    With that stock ratio, when the engine revs are 7K, the supercharger is at nearly 18K. According to Eaton the max is 24K.

    Changing the supercharger pulley has historically been the most popular as it's fairly accessible (although on the B8 it requires a tool to pull off and then the new one must be heated enough to slip on, and this has caused problems for some people). The smallest available is around 57mm. I assume some people tried smaller and must have hit problems such as belt slip. With a 57mm pulley the ratio is 2.84 and the supercharger revs will hit nearly 20K at 7K engine revs.

    Now since boost is directly proportional to the drive ratio, and with a TCU remap the redline can be increased to 7200rpm or perhaps higher, clearly a 57mm supercharger pulley doesn't take this engine to its limit. So primarily in the US they looked at changing the crank pulley. The only reason they went dual pulley is that they already had smaller supercharger pulleys. So rather than take the 57mm pulley back to stock, they just combined it with a new crank pulley. A 190mm crank pulley with a 57mm supercharger pulley has a ratio of 3.33 and at 7200rpm engine revs, the supercharger will hit 24K.

    But starting from a stock engine, there is no point changing both pulleys. And since the OE crank pulley is a risk part (the polymer degrades - there have been enough failure reports to be concerned), it makes sense to do just the crank pulley. To get a 3.33 ratio a 210mm crank pulley is needed.

    Of course whilst maxing out the supercharger is feasible, I don't believe many have done it, and certainly not without heavy cooling and going catless. If your are favouring MRC then ask Doug for advice. Their most popular option is a 189mm crank pulley which can work with stock cooling (this is what I have). They have an option for a larger size (I don't know the diameter) which they recommend a charge cooler upgrade. Bear in mind that if you want a Vdamper (and Doug fitted mine so he has experience of them), then unless you pay for a custom size then you'll have to select a standard size. Since you don't have a CREC then clutch slip is not a problem for you, however melting cats could be - worth reading up on it on Audizine.
     
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  10. arad85

    arad85 Well-Known Member Team V6 Audi S5 Black Edition

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    For information (I've asked two different places) changing cats is a PITA and is several hours labour + cats. I looked into high flow cats last year and was told £1200-£1600 for a high-flow (MOT OK) custom pair fitted (there don't appear to be any that are readily available for the S5)...
     
  11. lincoln_dj

    lincoln_dj Active Member VCDS Map User

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    Thanks for the info guys!

    Sounds like I'll just do the crank pulley then, stick with stock exhaust, but I'll still upgrade the 'cooler. Plus an intake obviously.

    Will be more than happy with 450+ hp. So can't see the extra expense of full exhaust or the v-damper in my case.
    Are the TCU maps worth the extra? it's like £700 for the APR one...

    Anything I missed? And thank's again for help compiling my shopping list!
     
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  13. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    TCU needs remapping for full power because later cars have peak rpm reduced to 6300?? (Someone will cost firm). Older car rev limit was 7000. The TCU remap re-raises the Rev limit.

    Dippy will have more to say on this but apparently Revo and APR remap the shift points due to the increased power whereas mrc only speed up the shift speed (not convinced on this) and increase the rev limit.

    I suspect given more than a 33% increase in power that the shift points must be changed. You can get around this by just driving in manual mode I suppose.

    Cooling wise, let us know how you get on, that’s an area I’ve not looked at yet.

    FYI the fluid damper is not changed as a function of power, they are a known failure point. You can get an APR pulley which bolts a smaller drive pulley on to stock ibratonal crank shaft damper or as stated, just ditch the damper. Either is a risk.

    The only reduced risk choice is the v damper, which also gives you the luxury of easily interchangeable drive pulleys if you want to push it or pull it back in the future.
     
  14. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    @lincoln_dj - when you have chosen your tuner, check what they actually offer in their TCU remap. I know for certain that MRC increase the clutchpack clamping pressure in theirs. However it is not clear that it is needed. I discussed this with Doug at MRC and he explained that the s-tronic fitted to the A3/S3/Golf needs to have this done because that have tuned such cars without and the clutchpacks have slipped. So they do it as standard for the 0B5 too. Personally I did notice faster gearchanges so unlike @Adamantium I am convinced that they are real. The other standard feature is to increase the rev limit. This is really needed for the B8.5, but less so for the B8 like yours.

    However another feature which I don't have in my MRC TCU remap but what others offer is the changed shift points. Personally I would prefer this, although not enough or me to get another tuner's TCU remap. I think that driveability will be enhanced by raising the points in both D and S. The engine will only change at redline in WOT, and for most of my fast road driving I do not use WOT. So the 'box changes at Audi's points which are tad low for me. As a result I have to use M if I want to optimise my driving.

    Maybe the best thing for you is to not get a TCU remap at first, then get used to the stage 2 power and then decide.
     
  15. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    Dippy,

    I should have made myself clearer. I wasn't saying that I didn't believe the shifts were faster, I wasn't convinced by the idea of the product on offer only tinkering with gearshift speed and not also addressing the shift points.

    Speeding up the gearchanges to me is less important than changing the shift points, so I think the omission is real let down, especially with significantly increased power.
     
  16. arad85

    arad85 Well-Known Member Team V6 Audi S5 Black Edition

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    @Dippy, I need to be WoT to get 7k+ in D (not tried in S as D is fast enough day-to-day...)
     
  17. lincoln_dj

    lincoln_dj Active Member VCDS Map User

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    Cheers again chaps.

    Comparing APR and MRC I'm leaning towards MRC. Have spoke to Ben there, and will likely go for the TCU upgrade too. (Not spoke to Unicorn yet)

    Just need to decide which filter to go for (MRC's own, or splash out on a "nicer looking" one from the likes of Luft-Tecknik), and also which cooler upgrade. Ben recommended the AMS Alpha system, who provide great performance data, but they're perhaps a bit too pricey (approx £1500 vs £1000-1100 for the likes of the Forge or APR options).
     
  18. lincoln_dj

    lincoln_dj Active Member VCDS Map User

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    Are all the pulleys fluid dampened, even OEM? What are the consquences of a pulley failure?

    I'll be rarely red-lining it, and won't be using single-mass flywheel, so hopefully such vibrations would be kept to a minimum anyway - presuming I've understood the reasoning behind having a dampened pulley...!!

    If the extra cost of a better damping pulley is not prohibitive then guess i'll go for that...

    Ended up spending £5k getting an extra 100hp out the S3, nowhere near that sum on the S5 so far! :)


    Something like this seems reasonably priced to be fair....
    https://www.akstuning.co.uk/fluidampr/261-fluidampr-engine-damper-18l-20l-tsi.html
     
  19. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    Aks tuning is the uk importer of the one dippy and I have gone for. Bear in mind you then need to choose the pulley which adds up to £750.

    I, like Dippy, have done it for peace of mind.

    Oem pulleys are not fluid damped, they are polyurethane rubber damped. Failure isn’t catastrophic, but lack of damping will accelerate engine wear and my car is a keeper.

    I’m looking at cooling options at the mo. I’m leaning towards the forge as its volume and surface area are bigger than the APR. AMS looks decent, they made great stuff for my GT-R and are really nice guys - met them a few times at SEMA in Las Vegas.

    Unlike air/air intercoolers, the tech in radiators is not so critical to the performance so I’m less worried about core design and more interested in simplicity and size.

    I’ll look into the ams further, with that in mind.
     
  20. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    OK - I agree. In a way I am disappointed with the MRC TCU remap for not changing shift points, but I felt that the clutchpack pressure and raising the rev limit was essential, and I wanted to be sure that their ECU tune was effective on my car with the vdamper, and I needed their TCU tune to prove it (which it has since my 475bhp peak is comparable to most of the other cars they have done). A year ago I was tempted to get another tuner's TCU remap for the shift points, but I guess I have got used to it and am not so worried, and use M when I want to drive with full benefit of the tune.

    If I need the engine to be revving to the redline, I'll be in S (ADS dynamic so that my dampers, steering and sports diff is too). I only use D when I know that I'm not going to be driving fast.

    Looks to me that they are a reseller of IABED's Vdamper.

    There is no evidence that a single piece pulley will cause problems in the short to medium term. MRC have been fitting them since around 2012 or maybe slightly earlier. However the long term is another matter. I bought my S5 new and want to look after it. I had my B5 S4 for 13 years and if there is a chance that I'll be keeping the S5 for as long then I don't want to cause problems (e.g. in the supercharger bearings) for the sake of a few hundred quid. So choosing Vdamper was easy for me. However if your car is not a keeper then MRC's pulley will be fine.

    Some of the failures have been. If the two parts completely separate at speed then that's a lump of metal flying around at the front of the engine. But before then, when the belts are not running true, it could be damaging any of the driven components.
     
  21. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    Dippy, do you have dynamic steering? Variable ratio not just ADS dynamic steering.
     
  22. arad85

    arad85 Well-Known Member Team V6 Audi S5 Black Edition

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    I do. What do you want to know?
     
  23. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    If your car is a facelift, I wouldn’t mind finding out the part number of the steering column for a retrofit.
     
  24. arad85

    arad85 Well-Known Member Team V6 Audi S5 Black Edition

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    If it's easy to find, let me know where. You're also going to need the control unit. Not sure if the active steering is different mechanism too. Here's the VCDS of the control unit:

    Code:
    Address 1B: Active Steering (J792)  Labels: None
      Part No SW: 8K0 907 144 N  HW: 8K0 907 144 N
      Component: DYNAMIKLENK.  H06 0740
      Revision: 52001005  Serial number: --------------
      Coding: 040100
      Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000
      VCID: 3A7B2811B5D1C391E7-806E
    
     
  25. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    ADS dynamic steering IS variable ratio.

    I believe the column is 8K0 419 502 AB for 2015+ cars. My control unit is 8K0 907 144 M.
     
  26. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    I know that variable ratio is dynamic steering but my car which has ads, sport diff and suspension has an option for steering assistance level one of which is dynamic.

    People may think I mean that, but I’m referring to the variable ratio, which I’d like to add.

    Can you confirm your car has the dynamic steering option?
     
  27. Adamantium

    Adamantium Member

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    Out of interest, the control unit you list, where is it located in the car?
     
  28. p1tse

    p1tse Active Member

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    Any further updates on links to parts and prices of parts and labour ?
     

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