S4 brake recommendations

[S4_Chris]

Hey all, I need to replace the disks and pads all round and was looking for some advice, are there any reasonably priced upgrades available for the S4 with notably better stopping power, or is the standard set up as good as it gets ?
Standard car, at the moment.

 

[S4_Chris]

Anybody ?

 

[V6_Man]

Brakes (pads and discs) alone wont be of much help. If you want better stopping power you need to uprate the calipers to 4 pot Q5 / Porsche. You can get the Porsche 4-pot directly from Porsche dealership. The price for these calipers is £215.89+VAT and the part numbers are:

95B-615-123-F
95B-615-124-F

For rotors, you have the option of StopTech Sport Slottetd, again part numbers are:

Front:
126.33138CSR
126.33138CSL

Rears:
126.33137CSR
126.33137CSL

or, ECS Tuning - 2piece and there are two optoins - links below:

Fronts:
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/front-2-piece-brake-rotors-pair-345x30/000690ecs01akt/

or

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-par...ve-brake-rotors-pair-345x30/003523ecs01a01kt/

Rears:
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/rear-2-piece-brake-rotors-pair-330x22/002879ecs01akt/

or

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-par...ve-brake-rotors-pair-330x22/003523ecs02a02kt/

For pads you have the option of DS2500 or HawkHPS. I don't remember the DS2500 part number but for HPS it is HB806B.624. These were designed specifically for Q5/Macan calipers.

Edit:

I forgot to add about brake cooling. One of the reasons you feel the stock setup to be not appropriate for the car is because of poor cooling. You can therefore add macan ducts to help overcome this issue on either your stock setup or even when you are upgrading them. I also know couple of forum members here who have added some vented grills to the arch liners to allow some air flow.

 

[V6_Man]

Now that the "recommendation" part is done, if you are stock, the OEM setup is more than sufficient for the car. I was running the stock setup on my tuned (stage 2) S4 for over a year and never had any issues.

Currently, I am on EBC USR Slotted discs (fronts and rears) and Redstuff pads and only recently started getting brake judder at high speeds. Most of it is down to me and not the setup I am running. I believe I somehow managed to hold the heat in them for far too long which I believe resulted in carbon deposits of the pads getting bedded into the discs. And because the discs will expand at a slightly different rate for higher deposit area compared to areas with lower deposits I believe is the reason I am getting the judder.

So, to cut the long story short, it is money you need to spend wisely

 

[S4_Chris]

Thank you @Tashfeen, it was more a question for like for like replacements really, brembo etc, I'll have a look at the EBC, thanks again

 

[V6_Man]

Thank you @Tashfeen, it was more a question for like for like replacements really, brembo etc, I'll have a look at the EBC, thanks again

Not a problem buddy. Below is the part list along with pricing for the EBC setup that I have. And although the invoice says 'Grooved', USR 1844/1846 are actually EBC Slotted discs.

 

[mk4gtiturbo]

Is the Q5 / Porsche 4 pot calliper a bolt-on upgrade?

I'm thinking about this if it is simple to do and I keep the car. (or at least I was until I got made redundant last week!)

 

[V6_Man]

Is the Q5 / Porsche 4 pot calliper a bolt-on upgrade?

Bolt on, no changes required. Also, the above price is per caliper so, £518 for both.

I'm thinking about this if it is simple to do and I keep the car. (or at least I was until I got made redundant last week!)

Sorry to hear buddy. I am sure you'll be able to find a better job soon.

 

[Dippy]

What's the difference between the redstuff and their other colour stuffs?

 

[V6_Man]

What's the difference between the redstuff and their other colour stuffs?

You mean between Red and Yellowstuff. If so, Redstuff are more for street use whereas Yellow is mainly for track but could also be used on road. And although EBC state no brake fade under repeated heavy use, trust me they do fade. And it wasn't a pleasant experience just after Jct 4 M40 a few weeks ago. Luckily, it was late at night so all good.

 

[MuPPeT_ON_TouR]

Also less brake dust with the Redstuffs, if they do nothing else to help with my braking they do at least give off less brake dust. Compared to other pads I have used.

 

[Dippy]

Less brake dust usually means that the disks wear quicker?
My main concern is the damn squeal I get with the OE pads.

 

[V6_Man]

Less brake dust usually means that the disks wear quicker?
My main concern is the damn squeal I get with the OE pads.

No squeal with Redstuff on stock discs as well on EBC ones that I have. You also have an option of DS2500, which Mark did recommend to me when he changed mine to Redstuff.

The only thing you would need getting used to (and it would take only a few days) is that with Redstuff/DS2500 the pedal feel is not as sensitive or the initial bite is not the same as stock pads. Also, the DS/EBC pads are more softer than stock and have more progressive feel.

 

[45bvtc]

Less brake dust usually means that the disks wear quicker?
My main concern is the damn squeal I get with the OE pads.

1) not in my experience, for sure my own 8P RS3 front discs show little or no lip and 2) it's the poor anti-squeal shim that fitted on the OE pads that quickly gets eaten through, as shown in the first photo. Brembo/Mitsubishi (same caliper/pads/squeal issue on the EVO 5/6 etc.) then supplied an anti-squeal shim that overcame and solved the problem, as shown in the second photo. EBC and Ferodo supply pads with a fixed 'metal' anti-squeal shim, shown in photo 3:



Hope this helps

 

[45bvtc]

What's the difference between the redstuff and their other colour stuffs?

Like so:

​

 

[Dippy]

Sorry, what do you mean by "eaten through"? In your second photo it looks like a lump of copper. Is the case that the material for the OE shim is so degradable that it actually gets vibrated/rubbed away well before the pads are used up?

I'm slightly concerned by Tash's comment that the bite with the redstuff is not as good as OE pads. I very much doubt that my fast road driving gets my brakes hot enough to worry about fade. I'd like brakes with the same feel as OE but without the squeal. Do you believe that the greenstuff might be better? There has to be a difference between the green and red, but unfortunately that chart is not really providing enough details.

 

[45bvtc]

Sorry, what do you mean by "eaten through"? In your second photo it looks like a lump of copper. Is the case that the material for the OE shim is so degradable that it actually gets vibrated/rubbed away well before the pads are used up?

I'm slightly concerned by Tash's comment that the bite with the redstuff is not as good as OE pads. I very much doubt that my fast road driving gets my brakes hot enough to worry about fade. I'd like brakes with the same feel as OE but without the squeal. Do you believe that the greenstuff might be better? There has to be a difference between the green and red, but unfortunately that chart is not really providing enough details.

No problem Dippy, does 'worn' through sound better or that the repeated action of the upper brake piston has "pushed through" the anti-squeal material; whichever the upper brake piston was then in direct metal-to-metal contact with the brake-pad-back-plate resulting in the low speed brake squeal.

As for the "lump of copper" well that's Copaslip. Copaslip and/or Ceratec (go Google) will afford a temporary fix by providing a barrier between piston and brake-pad-back-plate but it won't last long.

I agree with your 3rd sentence; photograph #1 was at 1200 miles.

As for the difference between green and red if the EBC Brakes chart does not provide the information you need then go visit the EBC website - both UK and US - for loads more information.

Hope this helps...

 

[V6_Man]

Sorry, what do you mean by "eaten through"? In your second photo it looks like a lump of copper. Is the case that the material for the OE shim is so degradable that it actually gets vibrated/rubbed away well before the pads are used up?

Based on my discussions with John @45bvtc yes is the answer. IIRC, John had a long standing discussion with Audi UK round that due to squeal on his RS3 pads and Audi did decide to change it on 8P - John you'll have to help me correct it the discussion we'd was long time ago when I visited you. And that is where John suggested I use Redstuff, which I did immediately after on the stock rotors.

I'm slightly concerned by Tash's comment that the bite with the redstuff is not as good as OE pads. I very much doubt that my fast road driving gets my brakes hot enough to worry about fade. I'd like brakes with the same feel as OE but without the squeal. Do you believe that the greenstuff might be better? There has to be a difference between the green and red, but unfortunately that chart is not really providing enough details.

I believe my driving style is the same as yours. I am not a street racer / don't have a heavy foot and take it very easy on the roads. And so far I never had any issues with EBC stuff. And whilst the initial bite is less aggressive it is not too soft.

Also, I believe the greenstuff is designed primarily for hot hatches and checking EBC website they only do Orange, Yellow and Redstuff for B8.5 S4/5s.

The reason why I had the issue I mentioned above was me not using the brakes as they should be, which resulted in brake judder. The issue with these ceramic pads (and aftermarket rotors) is that they need to be worked hard to get the optimal performance. And unfortunately the congested UK roads don't give you that options unless you do a late night spirited drive.

It is also very likely that the rears of the rotors, which can get contaminated are causing the brake vibration.

 

[45bvtc]

Based on my discussions with John @45bvtc yes is the answer. IIRC, John had a long standing discussion with Audi UK round that due to squeal on his RS3 pads and Audi did decide to change it on 8P - John you'll have to help me correct it the discussion we'd was long time ago when I visited you. And that is where John suggested I use Redstuff, which I did immediately after on the stock rotors.



I believe my driving style is the same as yours. I am not a street racer / don't have a heavy foot and take it very easy on the roads. And so far I never had any issues with EBC stuff. And whilst the initial bite is less aggressive it is not too soft.

Also, I believe the greenstuff is designed primarily for hot hatches and checking EBC website they only do Orange, Yellow and Redstuff for B8.5 S4/5s.

The reason why I had the issue I mentioned above was me not using the brakes as they should be, which resulted in brake judder. The issue with these ceramic pads (and aftermarket rotors) is that they need to be worked hard to get the optimal performance. And unfortunately the congested UK roads don't give you that options unless you do a late night spirited drive.

There are also chances the the rears of the rotors, which can get contaminated and therefore cause brake vibration.

Back in the late 60's we didn't have this darn problem but then the powers-that-be decided to ban asbestos from brake pads and us 'enthusiasts' (lol) running Lotus Elan/Europa/Marcos/TVR/Morgan etc all started having to fit anti-squeal shims so as to use Ferodo DS11 brake pads for 'spirited' driving; crazy at it seems but the issue just hasn't gone away...

Back then - 1972 - happy days:

Note the green 105E Ford Anglia competition in the background... ​

 

[MuPPeT_ON_TouR]

I've had red stuff on 2 cars now and not noticed an initial bite point difference between the OEM and EBC.

The first time was a Mondeo ST about 10 or 11 years ago perhaps more, this was before they did yellow stuff and I was expecting to have slightly less bite untill they warmed up, I'm not talking track temps but just normal driving temps, this is what I was warned to expect...

I'm not sure my butt is calibrated fine enough but I felt no difference in initial bite and I'm not sure I've pushed them to the upper temps ever to experience fade.

They defo make less dust and along with the EBC discs I see no more increase in wear.. nothing dramatic or tangible to me any way.

Never ever had any squeal from them, I can say that for sure. I do hit them hard now and again to make sure I keep them clean as with the auto I'm lazy and never go though the faff of putting car into park or handbrake so as to not sit with foot on the brake, this can obviously transfer matter from shoe to disc and cause judder.

 

[V6_Man]

I've had red stuff on 2 cars now and not noticed an initial bite point difference between the OEM and EBC.

The first time was a Mondeo ST about 10 or 11 years ago perhaps more, this was before they did yellow stuff and I was expecting to have slightly less bite untill they warmed up, I'm not talking track temps but just normal driving temps, this is what I was warned to expect...

I'm not sure my butt is calibrated fine enough but I felt no difference in initial bite and I'm not sure I've pushed them to the upper temps ever to experience fade.

They defo make less dust and along with the EBC discs I see no more increase in wear.. nothing dramatic or tangible to me any way.

I believe the less aggressive / non OE bite is a bit subjective as well. For example, I have been left foot braking ever since I bought the S4 as I always had manuals before. It took a while and quite a few "emergency stops" before getting used to but it has become a second nature now. IMO the way left foot responds / reacts / engages with brake pedal is slightly different to the right (and is also dependent on if you are right handed/footed or left). On very few occasions that I have used the right to brake I agree that the pedal feel was more OE-ish.

I have also driven an S4 with DS2500 fitted to 4-Pot Brembo calipers as well as on Brembo discs and in my opinion Redstuff definitely felt more OE compared to them. DS2500 are definitely softer and have less aggressive pedal feel than the Redstuff.

Never ever had any squeal from them, I can say that for sure. I do hit them hard now and again to make sure I keep them clean as with the auto I'm lazy and never go though the faff of putting car into park or handbrake so as to not sit with foot on the brake, this can obviously transfer matter from shoe to disc and cause judder.

This is an interesting one and thanks for the tip @MuPPeT_ON_TouR, I never thought of using the brake assist - perhaps I'll try it next time.

 

[Dippy]

Thanks guys. Tash is right that greenstuff is not an option anyway. I have seen the info below on the EBC site. The site actually recommends yellowstuff for my car (power to weight ratio) for fast road use. Based on those charts it does look like if I am willing to accept more dust and lower life, then the yellowstuff will have better cold bite and friction (average mu) than the redstuff. Any comments?

 

[V6_Man]

Thanks guys. Tash is right that greenstuff is not an option anyway. I have seen the info below on the EBC site. The site actually recommends yellowstuff for my car (power to weight ratio) for fast road use. Based on those charts it does look like if I am willing to accept more dust and lower life, then the yellowstuff will have better cold bite and friction (average mu) than the redstuff. Any comments?

You are absolutely right that Yellowstuff will offer better cold bite compared to Redstuff, which needs to be "warmed up" just a tad bit to get the best out of it. And although it suggests relatively high brake dust, imo, it is a comparison between EBC pads rather than OE. I believe the brake dust Yellowstuff will create will still be less than the OE pads.

 

[Dippy]

Good to know. What was your reason for choosing the red over the yellow?

 

[MuPPeT_ON_TouR]

I went for red as I already knew they were good on the brake dust front and are still a cut above OEM. I thought yellow would be more that what I needed. I also really don't notice the whole cold bite thing.

After the first couple of roundabouts on my journey and I never push the car till it is at temp gives the brakes plenty of time to get some heat.

They still work as good if not better than OEM when still cold and better when warm. So wear life and dust are what I wanted.

You will not go wrong with either choice to be fair. I also have red bits on the car and you can see the pad in the caliper.... Yuck yellow.

 

[MuPPeT_ON_TouR]

Just went out to get lunch in the car... On cold brakes!!

I slammed them on and kissed the windscreen... Nobody got run over.

 

[Dippy]

Thanks for the info. I don't need to decide yet but I suspect I'll be choosing the yellows, especially if I end up going back to MRC for more work.

 

[V6_Man]

Good to know. What was your reason for choosing the red over the yellow?

A few. I had driven an S4 and an A4 with Redstuff pads on stock setup and quite liked the overall feel and bite. And then had a long discussion with John @45bvtc including spending almost half a day at his place discussing the same. So, I Initially went ahead and changed just the pads on the car and later updated to full EBC setup.

I was happy with everything until a month ago and now planning on going either Stoptech / Macan rotors with Hawk HPS pads or Yellowstuff and 4pot Porsche calipers. I might also go 360s at the front instead of stock 345 bit that needs confirmation if these would fit under 4pot. The only reason for chnaging the pads would be to get better high temperature fade.