S3 Understeer Problem

[Yekta]

I know there are many threads about it, and read nearly all of them but I am too confused
As you know, main problem of our car about handling is understeer. What is the best way to handle with it?
I have KW v3 and WALK fitted on mine but still having trouble on track. I'm thinking to buy sway bar but can't decide to buy front+rear or just rear, also which made? Does anybody have experience about ST-KW or Whiteline? Or any others such as Neuspeed, Superpro?

KW-St is making for FA: 26mm, RA: 23mm and both these are 2 point assembly
Whiteline is for FA: 24mm (3point), RA: 24mm (2 point)
H&R is for FA: 24mm (2 point), RA: 26mm (3 point)

Also KW-ST is the cheapest one, about 300€, Whitleline is 420€, H&R is 500€. (Prices are approximate and included shipment to Turkey). As I read, best option seems H&R but is there a huge difference?

Another point is about setting front camber, what is the best way to do it? I can't have any topmounts because of V3's. As I informed by KW, I have to change the springs with Clubsport to have KW topmounts. TT wishbones are another option but I think they don't worth for S3's. Because we already have aluminum wishbones and also these are not cheap in here, about 600€.
I think setting camber from bottom is better instead of topmounts, because of widening front track.

Does anyone use Superpro Adjustable Ball Joints? Do they provide same angle degrees with others?
http://www.awesomegti.com/superpro-...mk6-golf-jetta-a3-s3-8p-leon-mk2-octavia-mk2#
And last K-Mac, does anybody know or use these top mounts? Do they work with v3's?
http://www.k-mac.com/pages/newprods/audi/audi.htm

Except these, do you have any other offers, solutions? I am also driving my car daily and don't want to make it too stiff. Really confused, help me please There are not many people have/know s3 here to ask, and it's hard to find parts in Turkey.

P.s Excuse me if I have mistakes on writing

 

[Dt_racing]

ARB's and the superpro ball joints will be the best move for you I think. Of the options you offered for ARB's you'll not go far wrong with H&R, a very popular choice on here and that should tell you something about them. Without a doubt the main limitation with front grip on the S3 is the lack of front camber adjustment, the superpro ball joint setup (I have these) will get you to around -2.5deg which should really remove a lot of the understeer when the front axle is heavily loaded.
Cant comment on other ARB's as never seen nor used them sorry. Buy cheap..buy twice. Go for the tried and tested stuff.

 

[desertstorm]

What tyres are you using ?. Do you use different tyres for the track than the road ?. If the car is a daily as well and you put too much camber on the front this will probably create a lot of wear on the inner shoulders of the tyres.
Having some adjustabilty in the ARB's gives you options to tweak the balance. As you say the H and R offer the best options there.
I ordered my H & R ARBS from Germany off Fleabay. Had a quick look and these appear to be the cheapest

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/H-R-Stabi...543104?hash=item20d5e58840:g:nbQAAOSwNSxVQhZt

Karl.

 

[Yekta]

ARB's and the superpro ball joints will be the best move for you I think. Of the options you offered for ARB's you'll not go far wrong with H&R, a very popular choice on here and that should tell you something about them. Without a doubt the main limitation with front grip on the S3 is the lack of front camber adjustment, the superpro ball joint setup (I have these) will get you to around -2.5deg which should really remove a lot of the understeer when the front axle is heavily loaded.
Cant comment on other ARB's as never seen nor used them sorry. Buy cheap..buy twice. Go for the tried and tested stuff.

I'm glad to see someone using superpros on s3 How are they on daily? Do they make any difference on ride comfort, or any problem like loosening from their bolts? I think it's easy to set them like oem TT wishbones, right? -2,5 degree will be really satisfying on track I suppose, what is yours?
I totally agree with you, hence I want to find best solution

What tyres are you using ?. Do you use different tyres for the track than the road ?. If the car is a daily as well and you put too much camber on the front this will probably create a lot of wear on the inner shoulders of the tyres.
Having some adjustabilty in the ARB's gives you options to tweak the balance. As you say the H and R offer the best options there.
I ordered my H & R ARBS from Germany off Fleabay. Had a quick look and these appear to be the cheapest

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/H-R-Stabi...543104?hash=item20d5e58840:g:nbQAAOSwNSxVQhZt

Karl.

I'm using Michelin PSS now, both on daily and track but planning to buy road legal semi slicks for the new season such as Michelin Cup2 or Kumho Ku36. We don't have much options. Yes, I know but there has to be a victim on this purpose I might set lower degrees for daily use to avoid.
What is the oem diameter of rear anti roll bars, does anyone know, 23mm?
Does it worth to buy both front and rear bars? Will there be oversteer problem if only rear sway bar used?
Thanks for the replies and link, I will have a look

 

[desertstorm]

Running road legal semi slicks on a track will give you a big step in grip, it will also probably highlight any weak points in the existing suspension .
The ARB's are sold seperately but for the best results I would use both of them together. Too much of a differential in roll stiffness front to rear can cause unfavourable handling results.

 

[S3Alex]

I think I've tried and used most of the solutions.

They all make a difference and it all adds up.
I have kW Clubsport suspension with adjustable topmounts and it does get rid of most of it but it is an extreme solution for everyday road use.
The ride is seriously bone crushing.

An ALK makes a bit of difference as does the Haldex controller but not as much as ARBs and suspension.

I also use R888s in summer and PSSs for the rest of the time.
Yes a big step in grip but they need heat to work properly.

I run about 2 degrees negative on the rear and 1.5 negative on the front.
It does result in fairly nervous handling on straight roads but overall is way better than on v3s.
BTW I think the advice on being able to use adjustable mounts with the v3s is incorrect and we also had that given.
The mounting bolts are too short with topmounts and the Clubsport kit is designed for adjustable mounts where the v3s are not.

 

[Yekta]

Running road legal semi slicks on a track will give you a big step in grip, it will also probably highlight any weak points in the existing suspension .
The ARB's are sold seperately but for the best results I would use both of them together. Too much of a differential in roll stiffness front to rear can cause unfavourable handling results.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I also care about this situation so the reason asking this is that I'm worried about stiffening the front side. If we get a set, do we have a characteristic that in total better but still having understeer problems?
Adjusting points are on this purpose I think

I think I've tried and used most of the solutions.

They all make a difference and it all adds up.
I have kW Clubsport suspension with adjustable topmounts and it does get rid of most of it but it is an extreme solution for everyday road use.
The ride is seriously bone crushing.

An ALK makes a bit of difference as does the Haldex controller but not as much as ARBs and suspension.

I also use R888s in summer and PSSs for the rest of the time.
Yes a big step in grip but they need heat to work properly.

I run about 2 degrees negative on the rear and 1.5 negative on the front.
It does result in fairly nervous handling on straight roads but overall is way better than on v3s.
BTW I think the advice on being able to use adjustable mounts with the v3s is incorrect and we also had that given.
The mounting bolts are too short with topmounts and the Clubsport kit is designed for adjustable mounts where the v3s are not.

I already have ALK, yes it made a bit difference especially in turn in responses but not that much. As all you guys said I will go on with a set of ARB, very likely H&R's, and Superpros.
What about Haldex controller? Do they make a miracle on dynamics? Is it "a must do" for track use?

Yes, PSS are good if you heat them well but they worn really very fast on track despite their 300TW value. Very good on daily use.

I am not sure about this information, may be wrong. I asked to dealer but the guy was not so wise on his job
I already think about setting from the bottom is better, for this reason I did not made any more research on this.


And also what about drop links? Do you have these with ARB's?

 

[S3Alex]

Haldex controller is not a miracle cure but will certainly aid traction.
I wouldn't say a must but very useful on track or difficult conditions

What made the biggest difference to traction on mine came as a bonus from a very expensive ECU upgrade.
The multi stage TC on this one is torque based and very subtle.

 

[bennyball]

I have the tt wishbones which increase both castor and track, along with giving camber adustablility. This made a big reduction in the understeer, the extra castor improves turn in, whilst the extra camber and increased ratio of track front to rear increases front end grip. I'd suggest keeping an eye on breakers, I paid about £120 for my set

 

[Bazzle]

When do you get the under-steer, under power, on the overrun, fast turn of the wheel, general running wide?

Might just need a change in cornering line and braking points ?

 

[Yekta]

@S3Alex What kind of difference does it make while cornering? Does it run as ESP or just TC?

@bennyball I think Superpros will do the same job as the TT wishbones. I'm already looking for but can't find anything Does it make increasement on castor also?

@Bazzle I get especially on fast turn in or exiting from slower turns because of torque. But I can say its more general.
You are right, changing line might be useful. I'm trying to drive gentle as I can and find optimum line.
Here are some videos, if you want to do criticise or give some advice I am fully open

As it is seen, I'm having trouble on turns just before SF and 8th turn ( really long left one )



Hotlap starts from 3:00

 

[S3Alex]

@S3Alex What kind of difference does it make while cornering? Does it run as ESP or just TC?

It's a by-product of a very expensive upgrade!

It looks at steering angle and lateral G with inputs from the wheel sensors as well,and when it senses loss of traction,will begin to reduce torque by limiting fuel flow,and retarding the ignition.
If this is insufficient,it will then cut ignition as well.

The maps can be set up to come in at different points,and with different rates of cut,depending on what you might want.....mine has 6 TC maps,and to be honest,using the most aggressive one,it is still way less intrusive,and more effective than Audi's system.
It is a very sophisticated ECU,offering way more than the stock one,but to be honest I wouldn't recommend it unless you need something that crafty.

http://www.syvecs.co.uk/products/engine-management-system/tfsi-range-vag-group/

 

[Dt_racing]

I'm glad to see someone using superpros on s3 How are they on daily? Do they make any difference on ride comfort, or any problem like loosening from their bolts? I think it's easy to set them like oem TT wishbones, right? -2,5 degree will be really satisfying on track I suppose, what is yours?
I totally agree with you, hence I want to find best solution

No issues at all and I run at -2.5deg daily with no extra wear to the inner edges, no difference to ride comfort although mine is now quite stiff so would be hard to assess. Very easy to adjust but I just leave mine at maximum, saves on alignments. I should actually have a look see if there is any effect on the toe etc. with camber adjustment, might do this next time I have it aligned.
I will say that when hard pushed the front will still wash and roll the tyre over to its outside edge but wheras previously this happend much sooner adn even on lift off there was no chassis adjutability. Now I can play with the rear and pivot it around so shows the difference in front grip levels

 

[Bazzle]

Good vids
Im no full time racing driver but Ive driven many cars on many tracks over the last 50 years or so.
Only 3 comments I can make not driving the car myself...
Try bit more air in front tires
Feather the throttle a little bit when it starts to give on the front (constant pushing will wipe off speed, slide wide and make tire tread hot (so next change of steering will be sloppy))
Turn in earlier and let it run to the outside with a bigger corner radius.

 

[Yekta]

I wanted to post an updated review
Finally got fitted my Superpro Ball joints and noticed considerable improvement. I set the camber as -1.9 degree at front and -1.5 rear.
I did not tracked or hardly tested it yet but as first impressions the car handles much better in turn ins especially in fast ones. The overall character turned into a bit of oversteerish and funny Steering became a bit softer but for me it is not a problem.
Really loved them and they totally worth the money.

What do you think or advice on settings?

PS: If someone else wants to buy, have a look at this seller. I dont know is it forbidden to share these kind of links but they have the best price I have found.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Suits-Audi-...amber-Adj-Ball-Joints-SUPERPRO-/301919429890?

 

[S3Alex]

I wanted to post an updated review
Finally got fitted my Superpro Ball joints and noticed considerable improvement. I set the camber as -1.9 degree at front and -1.5 rear.
I did not tracked or hardly tested it yet but as first impressions the car handles much better in turn ins especially in fast ones. The overall character turned into a bit of oversteerish and funny Steering became a bit softer but for me it is not a problem.
Really loved them and they totally worth the money.

What do you think or advice on settings?

I have - 2.2degrees at the front,and -1 degree on the rears,and the rear was recently reduced from -2.4,which did improve handling markedly,as well as letting the temps across the tyres equalise.

 

[mookster]

As a general observation of F1 cars they also run more camber on the front than the rear, visibly so. Suspect they know what they're doing, so imagine this is why S3Alex has also seen improvements with his updated settings

 

[SootySport]

How about trying adjustable ARB's front and rear, you'll eventually may be able dial out some understeer albeit with a lot of adjusting sessions. Don't know who makes them for Audis but they can be custom made by race car suspension experts. If you do have race car workshops in Turkey they are the people to ask and may need a Geo set up to get the best of your car without buying suspension parts hoping it will cure your problem. Having a 4WD car makes all this doubly difficult to get right, as sometimes you are in front wheel drive and on the limit you are in 4 wheel drive.

As said before, start with less camber at the rear and a bit more on the front. You could also try a little negative toe in at the front which in general quickens turn in response.

You may be aware that on 4WD rally cars on loose surfaces there is no such thing as driving round a corner, you can only use the throttle in a straight line, getting round a corner is more to do with sliding, using the handbrake and unsettling the car.

Failing all of the above, learn to live with some understeer, probably cheaper in the long run.

 

[Boydie]

When I owned my S3 I had:

1. H&R Springs 25mm
2. H&R ARB's front and back
3. ALK kit
4. Revo Engine mounts

I found that understeer had virtually disappeared - I definitely noticed a huge difference with the ALK

 

[S.]

H&r arbs are easily one of best mods i've done on my car.

 

[nluk100]

H&r arbs are easily one of best mods i've done on my car.

I agree - no need for fancy shocks or camber adjustments for fast road use, just get the H&R ARBs fitted and enjoy.

 

[Yekta]

As a general observation of F1 cars they also run more camber on the front than the rear, visibly so. Suspect they know what they're doing, so imagine this is why S3Alex has also seen improvements with his updated settings

Hahah kind of simple logic also the way that I followed is this, correct in general. They are the highest level of motorsports but these cars are totally different than ours. I wanted to see and compare what kind of specific setup that other s3 owners used to get a specific setup for mine.

How about trying adjustable ARB's front and rear, you'll eventually may be able dial out some understeer albeit with a lot of adjusting sessions. Don't know who makes them for Audis but they can be custom made by race car suspension experts. If you do have race car workshops in Turkey they are the people to ask and may need a Geo set up to get the best of your car without buying suspension parts hoping it will cure your problem. Having a 4WD car makes all this doubly difficult to get right, as sometimes you are in front wheel drive and on the limit you are in 4 wheel drive.

As said before, start with less camber at the rear and a bit more on the front. You could also try a little negative toe in at the front which in general quickens turn in response.

You may be aware that on 4WD rally cars on loose surfaces there is no such thing as driving round a corner, you can only use the throttle in a straight line, getting round a corner is more to do with sliding, using the handbrake and unsettling the car.

Failing all of the above, learn to live with some understeer, probably cheaper in the long run.

I have experienced the difference of ARB at my previous car (R53 cooper s), they totally worth but it is not easy to get them from a local dealer. You have to pay twice, and wait for weeks to get them, even going to a country that sold and buying from there might be easier.
As folks replied and discussed in other topics, H&R ARB's works well and they should be my next step obviously
There are not quite so much "race car workshops" that can set the suspension geometry, that's why I wanted to take advices instead of trial and error method.
Rally, especially on loose surfaces, are a bit different than tracking as you said, they get the corners sliding through their power and setup but it may not work on daily drive or track especially your car has a haldex unit

When I owned my S3 I had:

1. H&R Springs 25mm
2. H&R ARB's front and back
3. ALK kit
4. Revo Engine mounts

I found that understeer had virtually disappeared - I definitely noticed a huge difference with the ALK

ALK made me notice the same difference, but as my opinion they were not very sufficent for long turns.
What about engine mounts? Do they make appreciable improvement on handling and do they ruin the ride comfort, such as high vibration on chassis? I used to have them also at my previous car, my rear view mirror was rattling

BTW thanks again to all that replied and guided me.

 

[SootySport]

Everything you do to stiffen the car and make it better for the track , will make it less comfortable on the road, you already knew that . Next step is a dedicated track car.

 

[S3Alex]

Everything you do to stiffen the car and make it better for the track , will make it less comfortable on the road, you already knew that . Next step is a dedicated track car.

This is so true....

Mine will rattle your teeth now,but I don't mind that apart from how nervous it feels at times.

The best car I ever for overall grip/handling etc was a GpN Escort with tarmac/gravel suspension setup......superbly compliant and beautifully damped,but oh so costly to run on the road.

I think mine needs a stiffer front ARB,but that's something that needs to wait until the list of other jobs is sorted.

 

[Boydie]

I didn't have any problems or worries about the engine mounts in the car - frankly I loved them as it made the engine sound more aggressive

 

[downtothebone]

Which is the softest of the uprated engine mounts?

 

[S3Alex]

Which is the softest of the uprated engine mounts?

Most of the uprated mounts come in one of 2 specs,either road or race.

I don't think you'd notice much between the same spec for different makes but the so called road spec mounts usually have at least a bit of compliance and aren't too harsh whereas solid or race mounts are just that...solid and pretty harsh.

 

[downtothebone]

Most of the uprated mounts come in one of 2 specs,either road or race.

I don't think you'd notice much between the same spec for different makes but the so called road spec mounts usually have at least a bit of compliance and aren't too harsh whereas solid or race mounts are just that...solid and pretty harsh.

Thx Alex - might go with the Vibra Technics lower mount only.

 

[S3Alex]

Thx Alex - might go with the Vibra Technics lower mount only.

Vibratechnics make the VWR mounts that I have.

The lower mount is a really useful addition,and stops the engine flopping around too much.

 

[downtothebone]

Vibratechnics make the VWR mounts that I have.

The lower mount is a really useful addition,and stops the engine flopping around too much.

Not sure I can afford the VWR price premium ...

 

[S3Alex]

Not sure I can afford the VWR price premium ...

Exactly....I wouldn't bother,as the Vibratechnics mounts are the same ones.

This was one of many things I learnt along the way.....

 

[nooone]

Chiming in late, but have you played with the settings on the KW V3's?
I've gone the other direction for road driving, currently no rear ARB and raised the rebound on my V2's which keeps the steering responsive and the back more compliant over poor roads.