S3 to Cayman?

Vertigo1 said:
Lol, Cayman will outhandle a 911 any day of the week.



Says the guy driving the bright red car :p
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Touche :) that statement was perhaps a little harsh. And i spelt Porsche wrong. I can understand why people would buy one they're just not for me :)
 
Pulp84 said:
Never a truer statement regarding FWD and the S3.

In my humble opinion, my 2007 MK5 GTI handled much better than my S3. Steering feel, good turn in, good damping. It was so well judged. Current Fiesta ST another example.

I've yet to drive a Porsche product that didn't amaze me through the bends. Had a drive of a Macan a few weeks ago and it seriously surprised me how well it drove compared to my S3. Its on my list as a potential S3 replacement (yes, its that good.....)
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I don't disagree having driven quite a few quick road cars but feel is subjective and depends on number of conditions and doesn't necessarily relate to fast road driving/riding. You can still travel very quickly cross country in an S3 (as I do in rural France) and arguably quicker than a Cayman as most people most of the time can go faster in awd/fwd than rwd particularly on unfamiliar roads which is my favourite challenge.

Is a well spec'd Cayman S/GTS worth twice the price of a well spec'd S3, is feel that important? If so one could say buy an ST and enjoy the feel (I agree by the way, fantastic little car). I have a test drive in an S arranged so will let you know if i think it is worth it.

For me finding the balance between performance and feel is important, I won't pay twice the price for a vehicle that was no quicker but gave me feel. Rather pocket £30k and buy something else :)
 
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Apples to oranges for me. If I could afford a GTS I would be in one in a heart beat. I can't even put it on the same plane as an S3. It's a totally different car, built to be a proper sports coupe, and a pretty decent track car as well, and engages you every step of the way, putting you in control of how it drives, and giving you a true feeling of driving a car.

The S3, especially in SB form, is a shrunken station wagon that goes well, has decent handling and is comfortable. Don't get me wrong. It's a great car. I have one :). But it's not even close to a GTS.
 
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rams_s3 said:
Pretty much identical? It what way? GTS has 50 more hp and weighs about 200kilos less. Trust me the difference is a lot. Own an s3 and drive a cayman s most weekends areas where an s3 would touch 130mph, Cayman doing 150mph. First hand experience argue all you will...
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Sorry to p*ss on your bonfire, trust me, the difference is NOT a lot, just look at the maths and the physics below, argue I will....

Audi S3 weighs in at 1415kg (S-Tronic)
Cayman GTS weighs in at 1375kg (PDK)

Audi S3 has 300ps (296bhp)
Cayman GTS has 340ps (335bhp)

Audi S3 has 380nm between 1800-5500
Cayman GTS has 380nm between 4750-5800

Audi S3 has a 0-62 of 4.8 (S-Tronic)
Cayman GTS has a 0-62 of 4.8 (PDK)

Both cars will run down the 1/4m strip in around 12.7secs

The Audi S3 weighs 40kg more and is around 40bhp down on the GTS but the S3 has a far wider torque band that will make up for this small power and weight difference, this can be seen in pretty much identical 0-62mph times and 1/4m times (0-110mph)

In real life though, the S3 is easily tuned, the GTS is not. The GTS has no tuning potential unless you're willing to splash out 5 figure sums on a forced induction conversion.
In real life, the S3/Golf R will be mapped and pushing the Cayman along, in a straight line anyway.

The S3 is far more practical (Can carry a family) and is far more useable (4wd traction, year round performance) It is more economical, cheaper to tax, insure and run (no Porsche tax on consumables) Porsche 2yr warranty vs Audi/VW 3 yr warranty. the GTS is £58k, the S3 is £28k, quite a difference.

You talk of the Cayman S (Which has less power and less torque than the GTS model) doing 150mph and the S3 doing 130mph at the same point, I would suggest you are talking nonsense. The maths and the physics do not stack up.

Have you seen the acceleration figures of remapped Golf R's and S3's, 0-60 in 3.7, 100 in the 8's and 1/4's in the 11's. No Cayman will get near that, I think even the new GT4 will struggle to break any of those times. The S3 will be able to repeat those times launch after launch after launch by your granny, the Cayman will need a professional race driver to get those times, average Joe may do them 20% of the time. Ever tried to launch a rwd car?

Now the positive part....

The Cayman GTS is a stunning looking car, I too was looking into one only a month or so ago. However, when news of the new GT4 was announced, it put me off, what's the point in having the 2nd best Cayman model? The new GT4 has sold out and is a no go. In addition to that, there's news of a new model/facelift with introduction of a turbo engine. The Cayman GTS has a nice front and side view but its rear end is ugly and too tame. The GT4 sorts that out with the fixed spoiler, looks far better. I figured out I would be ****** off with only 335hp and no way to increase it, Golf R's and S3's would be pushing you out of the way, that's a definite. I would be ****** off with traction and practicality issues too, it's not really an every day car, no 2 seater rwd sports cars are. The Cayman GTS is getting great reviews by Evo/Autocar and the likes but that's based on its track capabilities and handling rather than its grunt. (Let's be honest, 335hp is hardly setting the world alight in 2015)
 
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You're a straight line 1/4 mile boy though ;)

Though the twisties and B roads, the steering and suspension of the Cayman (on a dry day) will outshine the S3.
 
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That is true, I have no doubts that the Cayman will post quicker lap times. The Cayman GTS probably a good few seconds a lap on some tracks.

Most of us will never see a track though

Two very different types of cars to be fair.
 
The missis had a Cayman GTS until recently, me running the S3 of course. We (that's the Royal we as I wanted to keep it!) reluctantly traded the Cayman for a new Boxster S. You can't really compare an S3 to that car, you really can't. Everything on the Cayman is in another league to the Audi. But, the S3 is a practical, cheap to run, fast, subtle and don't forget, more than half the price of the Porsche. On a pure driving and ownership level, the Porsche is a no brainer if you have to draw any conclusions.
 
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Heard the joke about whats the difference between a porsche and a porcupine ?

I do like some of the old air cooled porsches though !
 
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Absolutely no contest for me. If I were in a position to choose between a Cayman and an A3, Stuttgart would trump Ingolstadt each and every time. One is a family hatchback, the other is a throroughbred sports car; as I said, no contest.
 
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Leo-83 said:
Sorry to p*ss on your bonfire, trust me, the difference is NOT a lot, just look at the maths and the physics below, argue I will....

Audi S3 weighs in at 1415kg (S-Tronic)
Cayman GTS weighs in at 1375kg (PDK)

Audi S3 has 300ps (296bhp)
Cayman GTS has 340ps (335bhp)

Audi S3 has 380nm between 1800-5500
Cayman GTS has 380nm between 4750-5800

Audi S3 has a 0-62 of 4.8 (S-Tronic)
Cayman GTS has a 0-62 of 4.8 (PDK)

Both cars will run down the 1/4m strip in around 12.7secs

The Audi S3 weighs 40kg more and is around 40bhp down on the GTS but the S3 has a far wider torque band that will make up for this small power and weight difference, this can be seen in pretty much identical 0-62mph times and 1/4m times (0-110mph)

In real life though, the S3 is easily tuned, the GTS is not. The GTS has no tuning potential unless you're willing to splash out 5 figure sums on a forced induction conversion.
In real life, the S3/Golf R will be mapped and pushing the Cayman along, in a straight line anyway.

The S3 is far more practical (Can carry a family) and is far more useable (4wd traction, year round performance) It is more economical, cheaper to tax, insure and run (no Porsche tax on consumables) Porsche 2yr warranty vs Audi/VW 3 yr warranty. the GTS is £58k, the S3 is £28k, quite a difference.

You talk of the Cayman S (Which has less power and less torque than the GTS model) doing 150mph and the S3 doing 130mph at the same point, I would suggest you are talking nonsense. The maths and the physics do not stack up.

Have you seen the acceleration figures of remapped Golf R's and S3's, 0-60 in 3.7, 100 in the 8's and 1/4's in the 11's. No Cayman will get near that, I think even the new GT4 will struggle to break any of those times. The S3 will be able to repeat those times launch after launch after launch by your granny, the Cayman will need a professional race driver to get those times, average Joe may do them 20% of the time. Ever tried to launch a rwd car?

Now the positive part....

The Cayman GTS is a stunning looking car, I too was looking into one only a month or so ago. However, when news of the new GT4 was announced, it put me off, what's the point in having the 2nd best Cayman model? The new GT4 has sold out and is a no go. In addition to that, there's news of a new model/facelift with introduction of a turbo engine. The Cayman GTS has a nice front and side view but its rear end is ugly and too tame. The GT4 sorts that out with the fixed spoiler, looks far better. I figured out I would be ****** off with only 335hp and no way to increase it, Golf R's and S3's would be pushing you out of the way, that's a definite. I would be ****** off with traction and practicality issues too, it's not really an every day car, no 2 seater rwd sports cars are. The Cayman GTS is getting great reviews by Evo/Autocar and the likes but that's based on its track capabilities and handling rather than its grunt. (Let's be honest, 335hp is hardly setting the world alight in 2015)
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Watch the video I posted up. That's an old Cayman, less power than new gts, against an rs3 the difference is a fair bit over the given distance.
 
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The weights you've given are not correct. S3 is 1470kg and Cayman gts is 1345kg.
 
I have to say, if you are looking at a new GTS, then drive both the Cayman & (for the money) a 997 turbo or even a C4s.
If you want a 2 seat sports car then the Cayman will out perform the S3 & likely a C4s.
If you need 4 seats, then a 997 turbo will hands down beat the other two by a huge margin!
The GTS will feel pretty tame unless you take it on to some proper twisty bits, then you'll see it outshine the S3 even in the wet if you know how to drive it.

One thing I will say, is once you sit into a 911 & look in the rear view mirrors, especially of a 4s or turbo, I doubt you will consider the Cayman.
(Do it & you'll see what I mean)

Forget the haters, anyone slagging them off is simply jealous. & the Cayman is a proper sports car in its own right!

Treat yourself. Book yourself on the Porsche Silverstone driving school Warm Up course & hire one of their cars for the day. It will really open your eyes & show you what they are capable of. It will also improve your driving by a huge amount!
 
As promised - Top Gear mag super test results posted below for the Golf R DSG and Cayman GTS. All times in seconds.

.......................Golf......Cayman

0-60..................4.5........4.5

0-100................11.5......10.4

0-100-0.............16.8......15.5

30-70.................4.0........3.9

Weight (kg).......1,495......1,450

GTS £57,748 and the Golf R £29,900.

I note the Cayman as tested had carbon ceramics. So let's put this in to perspective......the GTS will be more fun through the corners, but the R (I can not see why it would be any different performance wise over the S3) is in most of the tests just as quick although it doesn't have carbons and is 35 bhp down on power.

I personally would expect much more straight line performance for that premium to be honest.....

It's very subjective.....what premium do you put on sublime handling ?
 
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rams_s3 said:
Watch the video I posted up. That's an old Cayman, less power than new gts, against an rs3 the difference is a fair bit over the given distance.
Click to expand...

To me it looks like the RS3 got caught out in the wrong gear, a load of turbo lag and probably stuck in D. You don't know if the car was running properly etc, nor the state of tune. The RS3 when propert driven can do 60 in 4secs and 100 in 10. That is quicker than a Cayman S. I can point you to numerous acceration tests of both cars where the RS3 will come out on top.

The old RS3 pretty much = the new S3 performance wise due to the weight (1415kg vs 1575kg)
 
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rams_s3 said:
The weights you've given are not correct. S3 is 1470kg and Cayman gts is 1345kg.
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You are incorrect.

http://www.audi.co.uk/content/dam/audi/production/PDF/PriceAndSpecGuides/a3-s3.pdf



Page 86 of the S3 brochure. The S3 manual = 1395kg and the S3 DSG 1415kg

The Porsche weights are direct off the website. You are quoting the weight from the manual GTS, you have to compare like for like and my figures are correct. Audi S3 = 1415kg. Cayman GTS = 1375kg.

If you compare manual vs manual it's 1345kg vs 1395kg

Porsche doc here... (Page 64)

http://files3.porsche.com/filestore...&version=9ebc0f5e-fad0-11e3-84a6-001a64c55f5c

 
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Now don't get me wrong, the Cayman S/GTS is the better car. They're lovely looking cars and they are getting very good reviews as an awesome package for a sports car. Big thumbs up from me.

Comparisons with the S3/Golf R are a little strange though, 2 completely different markets and the Cayman GTS costs nearly double the cost of the Golf/S3

They were never built for straight line performance to be fair, the reality is, they only produce 320-335bhp with no further scope for any more power. You cannot argue with the laws of physics I'm afraid, that isn't a huge amount of power and there are a lot of S3's and Golf R's that are now at 370hp and mountains of torque that will be pushing these Caymans out the way.

It's not very fair comparing a modded car vs a standard car but then it's also not very fair comparing a £60k car with a £30k car. You can't really tune a Cayman for more, you can however tune a Golf for £350 to give you an extra 70hp

Advantages and disadvantages of both cars. I think we would all choose the Cayman GTS over the S3/Golf R but for some, practicality is a big no no, as is of course the financial reasons.

My post was just to state that the Caymans are no straight line monsters. That's what the Turbo 991 cars are good for ;)
 
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Good post Leo-83 - I got shot down for suggesting the R was not far off the GTS on some performance tests and my post from the Top Gear mag shows that actually, either the R is punching wayyyy above it's weight or the GTS is way off the pace for the price.

Again, very subjective.......:)
 
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When comparing weights between marques, they don't always compare apples to apples wrt kerb or unladen weights.

For example.

Golf R quote unladen weight with driver
Audi S3 quotes unladen weight without driver

Which measure (DIN or EC) have you used for the Cayman "unladen weight" figure ? :)
 
Audi and Porsche use DIN, VW use EC

Difference between DIN and EC is the 75kg driver weight.

If you look at the Porsche figures, it gives you both DIN and EC (+75kg). If you look at the Audi figures, it just gives the DIN weight but has a side note that you need to add 75kg.
VW give you the EC weight only with the 75kg added already.

You would think there would be one European standard that they must all publish one figure but I guess the side notes do.

Explains why the S3 is down as 1415kg and the Golf R is down as 1495kg when they are pretty much the same car. S3 only 5kg lighter like for like.
 
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Just specced up a gts to as close to what i've got in the S3 as i can and it was over £65000. In my opinion, Porsches are almost as ugly as BMWs and i can't imagine i'd have had any more fun than what i had today. I would say that 1 in 100000 people can actually drive these cars at there limits on the road so whats the point in spending twice as much on a far less practical car?

Just my opinion of course :)
 
Leo-83 said:
Explains why the S3 is down as 1415kg and the Golf R is down as 1495kg when they are pretty much the same car. S3 only 5kg lighter like for like.
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Except that those pesky German car magazines actually weighed a like for like car, S3 & Golf R (amongst others)

And in terms of actual weighed weights, the S3 came out as heavier than the Golf R by 15kg :)
(1494 kg vs 1479 kg)

So *absolute* weights from the brochures can't necessarily be trusted ;)

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-vs-golf-r-wheel-alignment-handling.238462/#post-2386704
 
Very much horses for courses

Having run a Mini Cooper S for 7 years I am fortunate to be also able to run a manual Boxster 981 S, which was one of the first manual cars in the UK back in 2012 , fast forward to last November and I traded the Mini for an S3 Hatch.

The S3 is my winter daily driver and is a great car returning around 30 mpg but its not a Porsche and certainly doesn't drive like one, if you can afford a Porsche go for it.

I have an S, the GTS is just that little bit better in most areas, but can you still get a GTS - I heard there wasn't much availability left for 2015

Please don't hesitate to ask me any specifics

Jonathan
 
audi upgrades
I don't think it all comes down to data. There's the thrill and pleasure of driving, perhaps why people love an underpowered Caterham?
The pleasure from driving a Cayman has got to be better than the S3 or even an RS3. Performance statistics mean very little on the road particularly to a cautious mostly law abiding driver. I'm not prepared to race any one on the road. I don't do track days and am unable (like 99.99% of the population) to get the best out of an S3 on the road.
So it's a choice that needs to be made using your heart and not so much your head.

I love my S3 and it suits my life style which a Cayman doesn't but if I didn't need those five doors it would perhaps be another car I'd choose.
 
veeeight said:
Except that those pesky German car magazines actually weighed a like for like car, S3 & Golf R (amongst others)

And in terms of actual weighed weights, the S3 came out as heavier than the Golf R by 15kg :)
(1494 kg vs 1479 kg)

So *absolute* weights from the brochures can't necessarily be trusted ;)

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-vs-golf-r-wheel-alignment-handling.238462/#post-2386704
Click to expand...

The figures are from the heavier sportback rather than the 3 door hatch ;)

Your point is a good one though, optional extras like a panoramic roof or an upgrade in the size of the wheels etc will have an impact on the base model weight.
 
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Just tune the S3 if straight lines are all you care about.

 
Straight lines? Pah. No.

I'm all about pulling the g's ;)


bqLHs92.jpg


(and yes, I lose the back end, drift, break traction and take the car past its limits pretty much every day :) I think I might end up killing myself if I had a GTS, I'd always be wanting to drive at the GTS' limits, which are considerably higher than the S3's)
 
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Having owned a Cayman S Sport (2009 plate) and now owning an 8v S3 I can tell you that it's not all about the numbers. As a drivers car the Cayman beats the S3 in EVERY aspect as far as I was concerned. Not saying the S3 is rubbish but the Cayman was that good! Ok the S3 feels quicker on acceleration and is probably quicker in gear but the Cayman carries it's speed so much better. It's better on the brakes, you can heel and toe, more balanced....the list goes on. Cayman = drivers car, not for those who don't understand driving. S3 = quick car that more or less anyone can drive fast.

Running costs however are the Cayman's downfall. The back tyres on mine lasted 6k miles and cost £600 a set. Add to that the car would struggle for 22mpg (if I thrashed it I often got under 10mpg), the tax was £360 (IIRC) and the brakes weere silly expensive (Porsche had a tendancy to use disks with high iron content which made them very prone to corrosion/ pitting and scoring). It is pretty much a low miler car.

As much as my S3 is a decent all rounder when the time comes that I have my own garage I am looking at getting an early Cayman S and a cheap runaround that will do my day to day stuff - the S3 will be long gone ;)
 
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Bet a Cayman doesn't make you think its going to kill you when travelling fast on a bendy uneven country road. Mine scare the crep out of me sometimes. But I still like the overall package.
 
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thedooker said:
H....the list goes on. Cayman = drivers car, not for those who don't understand driving. S3 = quick car that more or less anyone can drive fast.
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, I really like my S3 and as I don't drive on British B roads even better, but I just think the Cayman is a totally different car, even if the straight-line performance are similar
 
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