S3 OEM brake upgrade

[Breezey]

Gents,

After something that’s from another VAG group carthat will fit my s3. I know there will be better after market choices however I’m on a budget and would like an upgrade that will see me through a track day or two. I’ve already done 5.1 fluid but am finding a terrible shudder after just a few laps, I think this is the pads over heating however not sure. I have a rear caliper that needs replacing anyway so naturally thought of just upgrading the lot. I’m running stock “S3” wheels car is 2008 so just facelift. Any recommendations, was wondering if SQ5 would bolt right up but I don’t know on guns etc if it would be a match assuming no as these bolt up to S4 I think.

Looking for suggestions / advice preferably without a spacer I know big ask.

 

[samuelh_888]

yep, big ask unfortunately.

Your stock rear brakes will be fine, just upgrade the pads and discs. Vagbremtechnic J-Hooks discs are great and although I use a stock brembo pad an upgrade will be fine for track.

If you don't already have braided lines then look to upgrade these - Hel do a good kit from about ‎£80.

As for the fronts, you could go for an upgraded pad like the Ferodo DS2500 or the Mintex 1155 and use an upgraded front disc (Vagbremtech 345mm J-Hook). To go for a big brake kit, the most popular option is TTRS calipers and discs - you'll be looking at c‎£700 for a good condition set with rotors but I'm pretty sure you'll need spacers to fit.

The Q5 and the S4 share front calipers. The SQ5 runs a 380mm rotor so I'm guessing it's a different caliper...

 

[paddy]

My guess is you have a problem because you shouldn't really have "terrible shudder " after a few laps, in extreme conditions you might get fade but shudder is symptomatic of another problem and not uncommon on the S3. I binned my j hooks in an attempt to get rid of the shudder and went back to std discs however its didn't help. I have been through 4 sets of discs and pads and while the brakes set the shudder off i dont think they are the cause.
Soft pads might help if you dont mind filthy wheels literally 10 miles after you cleaned them but it sounds like you have the same problem as me and until you fix it J hooks and pads etc will not help.
My brakes will go on/off at walking pace and constant pressure, you can feel them grab and release, they are fine at speed on a motorway for a while but the judder comes after a few heavy brakes. I have clocked the discs and they are spot on true, i suspect the bushing in the floating half of the caliper but a bad back has meant i can't get down there and change the bushes, i have a tyrol kit to fit but years of motorcycles and old age is are taking their toll

 

[tcardio]

For years, I have recommended carbo tech pads. You can purchase the bobcats for DD and the track pads for race day. You don't need to bed in the pads upon switching from one to another after the first use. they are clean pads and rotor friendly

 

[SootySport]

The “shudder” you mention is the ABS cutting in. Also the pads are getting hot so you need to swap them out with a track focused set of pads.
Audi’s are heavy cars to use on a trackday and I rarely see them in road going trim. The solution is to do short stints on the track and cool the brakes by slowing down on your final lap or drive slowly around the paddock.

 

[Breezey]

Thanks for the replies gents, ive managed to sneak the use of a Flir thermal image camera so im going to take it out on the weekend and check the temp of the discs etc after a few stops. the brakes are absolutely spot on under normal conditions. Im pretty confident its not the ABS as even lightly applied when mega hot itll do it. im hoping some new pads will be the solution, i do get a squeal sometimes when lightly breaking so im suspecting something not moving freely as mentioned hoping the flir campera will give me some pointers. more to follow on the weekend.

Thanks

Ben

 

[Moxy89]

braided lines, s29, you may have pad debris on your discs causing shuddering with braking, go do a few high speed emergency stops and see if its clears.

 

[Breezey]

braided lines, s29, you may have pad debris on your discs causing shuddering with braking, go do a few high speed emergency stops and see if its clears.

S29? Will braided lines make a noticeable difference?

It was whilst on the track the shuddering started after about the 4th lap, then once cooled all was fine so I’m just assuming they got too hot? There was huge fade aswell, it was my first outing on a track so I’ve never really bushed brakes that hard before but the vibration was insane! Shaking the steering wheel like mad.

 

[paddy]

I fitted HEL lines, cant say they made any difference, the judder under heavy braking was the same with stock and J Hooks, i get it even on Motorway braking. I honestly think you need to find what is causing the judder because its not the discs. I changed drop links and all 4 wheel bearings and it made no difference however i can improve or make the issue worse by rotating the wheel 90 degrees on the hub or just one hole round. This is to the extent that my garage knows to carefully mark the wheel position to the hub before taking the wheels off.
Front to back swap of wheels didnt help. I have tried everything from 4 sets of discs now including to std, one EBC motorsport set and a set of bremtechnic j hooks. Brembo and std pads. 2 sets of tyres and endless wheel balancing. My garage has given up.
Moxy is prob on the right lines with pad build up setting off an underlying problem but it will not clear under heavy braking, on the contrary it will get worse. I know it feels like the discs are warping but believe me discs do not warp under heat full stop
https://www.apecbraking.co.uk/Resources/TechniciansGuides/Understanding-Brake-Judder.aspx

I think you should first of all fit a tyrol disc bush set to remove the rubber bushes and replace with with brass

Pic of my j hooks, made no difference

 

[paddy]

this is the tyrol kit , it does firm up the peddle so is worth doing anyway.

And the old rubber bush and pin and the new brass bush and pi

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2dqXL9Z][/url]

 

[Moxy89]

S29? Will braided lines make a noticeable difference?

It was whilst on the track the shuddering started after about the 4th lap, then once cooled all was fine so I’m just assuming they got too hot? There was huge fade aswell, it was my first outing on a track so I’ve never really bushed brakes that hard before but the vibration was insane! Shaking the steering wheel like mad.

Pagid rs29 pads and braided line will massively improve braking bud

 

[S3 W]

Hi im using OEM S3 Calipers with J-Groove DBA Front Discs & DS2500 pads on a tte420 stage 3 400+bhp S3. I've not yet managed to get any brake fade or brake fail what so ever from this set up even when driven hard for a while although have never tracked the car. Would defo recommend the Ferodos pads over Mintex or EBC all day long, used all 3 brands & only Ferodo didn't get brake fade out of the 3.

 

[paddy]

As i say until you sort out the underlying problem that's causing the judder there is little point in spending out on discs and lines etc. when i first brought up this judder problem i wasnt really surprised to find many people here with the same problem who have tried most things and learned to live with it.

 

[Moxy89]

hard braking will remove pad build up, hel lines will much improve brake pad feel and also give a much nicer pedal feel. Or simply save up for a TTRS kit with vagbrem discs and your laughing

 

[paddy]

You really dont get this do you Moxy. He is only getting pad build up if that is really what it is through hard braking in the first place. HEL lines will make no noticeable difference to stock set up unless your stock set up has degraded. Vagbrem Discs are just stock discs with the J hook or slots milled in to them, the braking coefficient is the same.

 

[paddy]

Another interesting read
http://www.mossmotoring.com/warped-brake-rotors-the-facts/

the interesting part here is when you brake hard from high speed to a stop you should hit neutral and take your foot off the brake as leaving the pads in contact with a red hot disc will cause material transfer in one spot. I wonder if this is a clue to the problem with some S3's because people with DSG will brake hard to a stop then keep their foot on the brake to stop the car creeping off again, which a manual will not do.

 

[Moxy89]

You really dont get this do you Moxy. He is only getting pad build up if that is really what it is through hard braking in the first place. HEL lines will make no noticeable difference to stock set up unless your stock set up has degraded. Vagbrem Discs are just stock discs with the J hook or slots milled in to them, the braking coefficient is the same.

don't be a peasant and get the 2 piece floating set up with TTRS set up then. problems solved. And hel lines will make a difference regardless. Why don't you make some more posts about your brakes issues, your clearly an expert

 

[paddy]

Thank you at last, Yes i am an expert.

 

[Bryant1998]

Not an expert on brakes but can you two stop the aggro none of us know the problem because we’ve not driven his car! I’d take a guess the judder could be some air in the brake line (which could be the case if the lines have not been bled properly/enough, would only take the smallest bit to give a judder) so new lines and fluid could Rectify the problem, also removing the brake callipers, pads and discs and re fitting them could also fix the problem as they might’ve been put on in a rush and not be fitting perfectly, if screws have jumped a thread or even have damaged threads that could also give a judder as the components are no longer fitting as they should, even .5mm off you’d be able to feel through the pedal, just my 2 pence


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[paddy]

Well if driving the car is a prerequisite for having an opinion then there is little point in asking for help here.
However as i have the same problem and have had this problem for some time and already asked the same questions here in the past i stupidly thought i might be able to help. that coupled with the fact brakes are my job and i am a brembo supplier.
Of course if you would rather people were just constantly contradicted by a known troll then thats fine , its no skin of my nose, just thought i might be able to help.

 

[paddy]

Hi im using OEM S3 Calipers with J-Groove DBA Front Discs & DS2500 pads on a tte420 stage 3 400+bhp S3. I've not yet managed to get any brake fade or brake fail what so ever from this set up even when driven hard for a while although have never tracked the car. Would defo recommend the Ferodos pads over Mintex or EBC all day long, used all 3 brands & only Ferodo didn't get brake fade out of the 3.

Just a word of caution, Ferodo DS2500 pads are not approved for road use so may well cause problems with insurance if they were ever investigated.

 

[Breezey]

Just a word of caution, Ferodo DS2500 pads are not approved for road use so may well cause problems with insurance if they were ever investigated.

Never knew this thank you.




With regards to air in the brake lines. It’s not, I fully bled them with about 2l of fluid and a pressure bleeder.

I appreciate all the advice on the judder but it’s not all the time only when on the track after 4-5 laps when everything is very hot! I will get flir images today to check for a binding caliper.

 

[Bryant1998]

Never knew this thank you.




With regards to air in the brake lines. It’s not, I fully bled them with about 2l of fluid and a pressure bleeder.

I appreciate all the advice on the judder but it’s not all the time only when on the track after 4-5 laps when everything is very hot! I will get flir images today to check for a binding caliper.

Just gonna have to ease off the brakes and enjoy some 4 wheel drifting then mate


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[Breezey]

Results :

What do we think rear passenger side seezing (cooler) or rear drivers side biinding (hotter)

Front Drivers:



Front Passenger:


Rear Drivers:


Rear Passenger:

 

[paddy]

Under what conditions was this ? light braking, wheels stopped , no braking just rub, wheels spinning and so on ?

 

[Breezey]

Light breaking. I haven’t had a lot of spare time lately, hoping to get on it tommorow and lift the back end see if the wheels are loving free.