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S3 GTX2860R gen II build

Warsuperior Feb 27, 2018

  1. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    I have recently acquired badly knocking (sounded like diesel on idle) APY engined S3.
    After taking engine off from car and opening oil sump, the oil pan was filled with copper/aluminium looking pieces.
    3rd conrod end had turned to black and engine did not turn easily, not very big surprise because crankshaft and block were both twisted 5mm.

    Parts so far:
    H-profile rods
    Wössner 8.5:1 pistons with new rings (pistons were on old engine, dont know why some owner had them replaced but they seem to be in great condition)
    BAM engine block which I hone myself
    SMF&SRE pressure plate and organic clutch disk
    3" DP with 200cel catalysator
    Adjustable FPR with bigger return line (straight fit to old fuel rail)


    Parts to get IF turbo is a good choice:
    cast iron T25 exhaust manifold
    GTX2860RS GEN 2 with .64/internal wastegate turbine
    1 bar actuator
    EV14-630cc@3bar long spray tip injector
    FMIC 600*300*76 3"
    APR 265 LPH pump that should fit intank link here

    I have been trying to find info about 2860 GEN 2 on S3:s but no such luck.
    That turbo should be big enough and with somewhat good spool to achieve 400hp
    Is the turbo really worth it? It cost 1450€ with full actuator kit and 5 bolt outlet. GT2871 would be 800€ approx full kit

    apy has ME7 engine management, is this any problem for tuning/mapping it? What kind of job it is to change it to ME7.5 or any aftermarket ecu that fits right in?
     
  2. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    The Gen II is only a year or so old, so not many about.
    Regardless, don’t use a T25 turbo or manifold.
    Go V band. I’d also consider the bigger 67mm if you want 400hp.
    Better yet, look at the even newer G series turbos by Garrett.
     
  3. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Turbo is going to be with V-band outlet, it just comes from factory without actuator, actuator plate and with 5 bolt outlet.

    T25 turbo is easier for me to fit and to retain original look, since our country has very f*cking moronic laws regarding modifying your car.
    G Series unfortunately are out of my price range at the moment

    I know T25 cast exhaust manifold is not optimal and neither is internal wastegate but this is what I have to go with for now.
    I wanted to save money on one more tune for car and just skip the stage I and go for bigger turbo instead.
    X-parts.de sells T25 cast manifold very reasonably 100€ shipped.

    There is just more variables now: To go with narrowband ECU or modify to get wideband ECU.
    Also Maestro tuning crossed my mind, since it could save me money in long run and wideband ecus are more easy to tune.

    Garret also dropped price on 2860 g2 to 1299€ versus 2867 g2 being 1359€. These are finlands prices FYI

    how does your 2867 produce boost, I mean how does it spool?
     
  4. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Ok. If you insist on T25 then you must re-drill and tap it for M10 studs. Otherwise you'll suffer things coming undone. You MUST also portmatch the manifold and turbo, or else it will eat gaskets for fun.

    I was goint to suggest that if you insist on T25 IWG setup then you may aswell save money and get the GT2871. However, i think its a close call when comparing to the GEN II 2860, which should perform as well AND be way more responsive. Your money, your call.

    My setup built boost from 3000-3800 and hit like a missile when it did. It was very violent, which I liked.

    Which manifold are you looking at?

    Have you considered a bottom mount gt30?
     
  5. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    here is the manifold
    http://www.x-parts.de/Auspuff-Kruem...uer-VAG-18T-20V-mit-T25-Flansch::2518153.html
    It has already places for M10 and I got this suggestion from professional turbo company here where I live. It should be portmatch too to GT28xx series etc.

    The GT2871 ready to use kit is 800€ only missing oil intake plug, so it is lot cheaper than gen 2. Responsives is the key in my buy and that is why I was trying to find answers on gen 2.

    Havent considered gt30, except gt3071 but ppl said that it delivers too lot air for 1.8t engine?
     
  6. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Have you considered a KO4 hybrid?
    They are now capable of 400hp.

    It would be a better 'oem' option for you. Beyond that it would logically only be worth going GT30 or larger
     
  7. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    I have considered them yes but for 950€ I really dont think it is wise. Allthought it was only for 350Hp capable.
    Hybrids are hard to find where I live and find one, usually price is same as getting garret GT series turbo

    Today I found this https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/webs...-Blade-K04020-K04022-K04023-Turbocharger.html
    Dont know yet what hp that is capable of and is that even worth of trying.

    Okey I did not make this very clear on start of post but I would be happy if reach 400hp, lets change that bit.

    Damn everytime I ask something, it gets harder to choose the parts :D dont get me wrong, I really appreciate lot your opinion and information and Im grateful for it.
    S3 audi is just new area for me. I do have a 190ps AGU A3 as my daily driver for now
     
  8. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/new-aet-badger5-k04-380-402bhp-dynod.266800/

    This will get you what you want. And doesnt have the extra associated costs of a big turbo build, for the sake of maybe a tiny bit more power.
    I think you're the ideal candidate for a hybrid turbo build.
     
    Tj 0785, hydro s3 and Stuart B like this.
  9. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Can you suggest drop-in fuel pump for S3?
     
  10. S3 Hilife

    S3 Hilife It's an addiction Team Dolphin Grey VCDS Map User Gold Supporter Audi S3 quattro

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  11. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Since here is lot of information, what kind of injectors fit to S3 original intake?
    Now I have the long spray tip ones, been trying to find info do i need to change something to fit normal injectors?

    I did find 630cc long spray tip ones but I was wondering if normal tip ones could save some money.

    I decided to go for GT28xx series turbo. Still contemplating should I put my money on Gt2860 gen 2 or not...
    I would like to have great response engine and I am willing to drop from 400 hp if I get better and wider torgue curve.

    We have long winters and I cruise on ice a lot, so fast response is desirable
     
  12. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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  13. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    I chose to go for T25 manifold but I change my goal a bit towards maximum response and widebroad torque curve, since its daily driver car.
    Lets drop 400hp to near 350hp.

    If I am not wrong, normal GT2860rs can push around 280hp?
    Also I understand that turbo is not the only thing making car responsive. Im just bit worried of my CR being so low now 8.5:1

    How does GT2871 generally spool and GT2860rs too?
    I tried to google but cannot seem to find near identical setup.
     
  14. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Well I went and bought GT2860RS gen 2 so I guess we will find out how it will perform :D
     
  15. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Mainly due to the GT28 series of turbos being surpassed by hybrid K04's... while arguably the GT28 is a superior turbo hybrids are now capable of the obtaining similar power levels more cheaply and with better spool... a hybrid is a natural path for most S3 owners as they are already invested in the supporting hardware so the extra costs are minimal compared to fitting a larger framed turbo...

    As a daily and only aiming for 350hp then the better choice would have been the K04 hybrid IMO... uses off the shelf parts and will give you the stealth you need... if building a track car then the larger framed turbo (GT whatever etc) will give more reliability at sustained track use...

    Its arguable that if fitting any larger framed turbo then entry level is 3071/3076 as the costs are not much different to fitting a 28xx but you get more power capability

    T25 and internal gates are restrictive as are the cast manifolds to a degree... even external gated cast manifolds are not brilliant...

    I run a CR of 9.5:1 on a stoker engine with a GT3582r... 8.5:1 will need boost to get it making power (limited by the flow capabilities of hardware) and feel a bit flat off boost

    Good luck with it though...

    <tuffty/>
     
  16. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Thank you for your insight. I know that the cast manifold is not perfect but I really needed turbo since I sold my K04 last night along with OEM manifold.
    I will update my exhaust and intake manifol after I get more money. Also most likely going to upgrade to wideband ECU but I do not see need for it at the moment since I know people have ran NB +400hp

    As I said previously, I ordered Gt2860R gen 2 A/R .64 Int.WG now and updated my parts list. Also I know its less stealth but I can manage it somehow ;)
    - 600*300*76 FMIC
    - 630cc injectors EV14 long spray tip
    - HFP 265LPH intank drop in pump for S3
    - Modified airbox and intake pipe front of car
    - New TIP
    - 3" V-band downpipe or most likely modify my existing from 3-bolt to V-band
    and some other things that come into mind as I rebuild.

    Many here are excited to hear how the Gen 2 will perform
     
  17. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Narrowband ECU's are more tricky to tune as a rule and run open loop fuelling when requested AFR is below lambda 1 so if the MAF dies or you get an airleak the ECU can't compensate and you risk running richer or leaner... wideband conversion gives more options... Wideband lambda control, VVT and EGT protection for example...

    Also depends on who tunes it... lots of advancement in ME7 tuning in the UK... can't speak for other countries though...

    I have already seen a Gen2 GTX3076 run against others for comparison... its not loads different to other turbos in its class tbh but has potential at higher boost maybe... and still not enough to make me regret my decision to go for a vanilla GT3582r either...

    <tuffty/>
     
  18. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    I guess I do the mod now, since it seems pretty simple. Biggest problem is to find that ECU that fits for suitable price and a file for it so I could at least drive car to tuner.

    You are making me feel regret already for buying that turbo, allthought many turbo companies suggested it here but I have to keep in mind they have agenda: to sell turbos!

    I would be glad if someone has DIY guide for Narrowband to wideband change for S3 APY engine or similiar!
     
  19. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    We did tell you
     
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  20. hydro s3

    hydro s3 S3 amk Team Ming Blue Audi S3

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    I think Stuart B has a ecu for sale and I think it already has a map on it.
    Check the classifieds or drop him a pm.
     
  21. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    It will be a wideband ECU so will need to be wideband converted for use on the APY plus if no EGT or VVT fitted the ECU will complain loads

    Map will be useless for a GTX28

    <tuffty/>
     
  22. hydro s3

    hydro s3 S3 amk Team Ming Blue Audi S3

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    Oh right didn't know that.
     
  23. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    My spare immo off ECU will fit in my TT :)

    The B5 package with K04 hybrid, ported Chinafold and 80mm silicon intake is the best upgrade for 350bhp.
     
    Tj 0785 likes this.
  24. andrew_wright

    andrew_wright Member

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    Emerald ecu (second hand maybe) would go nice with this setup and easier to install and tune when you take it to your map man. Don't feel to bad about that setup, its a nice setup you have there and will be plenty of fun...and as for the companies trying to sell you something.... Hahaha same thing is going on here, don't regret your setup gt28 and a 1.8t go very well together.

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
     
    S3 Hilife likes this.
  25. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Thanks! I dont regret it at all. I saw and heard so lot good about the gen 2 that I know it was right choice.
    On my shopping list next is better intake and cams.

    By the way can someone help me or tell what kind of hoses they are using with GT28 setups? I mean turbo inlet pipe.
    My tuner said to upgrade to 2.7t MAF to car and it is bigger O.D. 3.25" than old one. I need to order the pipes all at same time so would save time if someone could give me tip what size to get or is there ready TIP pipe.
    Allthough turbo inlet is 3" so I could get reducer silicone pipe.


    where did you get that 80mm silicon intake?
     
  26. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    You do not need to do this at this power level .. Stick to the S3 MAF tube but if you wideband convert change the sensor to a wideband one

    <tuffty/>
     
  27. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    he said limit is 350hp for original maf.
     
  28. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    on wideband the max aiflow is 292 gs which is 365hp... a narrowband sensor (as on the APY) reads a little less but the way to tune is not much different to tuning a 400hp setup on a standard wideband MAF...

    If your tuner actually knows what he is doing then you can still use the S3 MAF and sensor over 400hp by tuning the right tables...

    Its preferable for you to keep the S3 MAF as fitting an RS4 MAF will be a lot more work and the car will drive better on the S3 MAF

    You came to this forum for advice... this advice is based on years of working on these engines and many builds from hybrid K03's to hybrid GT35's... do with it what you will...

    The intake Stuart is referring to is Badger 5's 80mm TIP for the K04... not relevant in your case... you will need to make your own TIP using 76mm silicon hoses and alloy pipes... you will need to get the DV, N75 and PCV take offs welded onto the alloy pipe as there is nothing off the shelf for a turbo like this..

    Here is the one I did for my original GT30 setup
    http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/my-minor-modding-thread.76389/page-6#post-818442

    With this turbo everything is custom... best find a fabricator...

    <tuffty/>
     
  29. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    I do appreciate your advice and regarding what you said, I am going to ask is the S4 maf really needed.

    That is what I thought about the TIP.

    Thank you!

    Now I have to figure out what intercooler to use since here you cannot cut into the crash bar (against law to cut protective parts of car)
     
  30. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Your only real option is the wagner then dude... designed to fit behind the crashbar...

    S4? I used an S4 maf tube with an S3 wideband sensor on mine for a while... didn't really lend a lot to the party... also be aware that S4 MAF came in two types... Bosch and Hitachi... I used a Bosch tube...

    There is no available scaling for an S4 MAF tube using a wideband sensor.... but as I said before its largely irrelevant as you don't need to...

    Ultimately the decision may be made for you by the tuner simply because they know no better and they are setup to tune that way... in which case you may have to concede to whatever they want to be able to tune it...

    But... simple fact is (and assuming you are still considering a wideband conversion) the standard S3 maf tube and wideband sensor will do what you need... I have used S3, S4 and RS4 mafs on my own car over various iterations of hardware and tune and the car drove best and was easiest to tune using the S3 setup...

    <tuffty/>
     
  31. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    All your pipework will need to be custom made. There is no off the shelf solution
     
  32. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    Didn't someone remove the Aircon and move the radiator back a bit?

    Has anyone split the intercooler to two, and put one above and one below the crash bar?
     
  33. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    If only it was that easy :)

    Pipework would be a nightmare... not enough room as it is... Wagner would be the choice here as its designed with TUV approval and to fit with no structural modification...

    <tuffty/>
     
  34. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Anyone remember how lot room there is between crash bar and A/C core? Wagner cooler is 60mm and that seems to fit right it.
    Too bad it is so hard to fin 60mm cores
     
  35. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Wagner is 50mm deep core... I have a 62mm deep core on my AH Fabs V2 and it required the crash bar to be cut

    Biggest issue you will have is finding a 50mm core with a big enough surface area and large enough inlets... 50mm core is a flow compromise so you will need more rows to flow and surface area to efficiently cool...

    Most 50mm cores are 2" and 2.25" outlets... you want 2.5" ideally

    <tuffty/>
     
  36. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    For time being I am going to tune car with narrowband=original motronic setup.
    Is this why you would need bigger maf from 2.7t?
    Tuffty I dont know if tuner meant S4 one but when I checked part numbers it is from S4
    Tuner is busy so I cannot get answer from him.
     
  37. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Stick to the S3 MAF... you do not need a 2.7t MAF...

    <tuffty/>
     
  38. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Since many here have Garret GT series turbos with ball bearing, have you guys used restrictor on oil line?
    EDIT: Garrett suggests to use one, so Im getting one. Just answering to mysel, if someone else wonders.
    I am sticking with s3 maf, there was confusion with my wideband ecu change.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  39. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    yes, you must use restrictor.. else smokey turbo
    0.8-1.0mm we use
     
  40. Warsuperior

    Warsuperior Member

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    Gen 2 has internal 1.0mm restrictor BUT check your turbo before installing.
    Biggest problem usually for smoking turbo is too tight oil return or in wrong angle and yes, also can do that with too much oil pressure.

    Gonna hit the garage now and continue rebuilding engine.
    Last sunday I honed the block myself with brush hone and got nice looking cross hatch. Not hard to do with brush hone. Would not bother with stone honing anymore.
    Gapped piston rings earlier this week and changed H-profile conrods.

    I weighted my Maxspeedingrod conrods and weights are within 1gram.
    602,4 grams
    602,8 grams
    603,1 grams
    603,4 grams
    Only "negative" from rods I can say, they dont have rifle drilling. Otherwise great quality for low price.

    Hint for people using Wössner pistons, for turbo/supercharger use following calculation: 0.006"x bore
    Example for 81mm piston
    0.006" x 3.189"(81mm bore in inch)=0.019" and convert that to mm=0.4826mm MINIMUM ring gap

    I set mine for 0.50mm, it is same for first and second compression rings. For oil ring, just check that its above 0.40mm, no need to file them.
     

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