S3, Great bit of kit... (and build thread...sort of)

Dt_racing

Registered User
:relaxed:
I'm pretty well down the slope,but still going.

You know where this all leads....
Bankruptsy or divorce...maybe both. :anguished:

I'll just tell her its S3Alex's fault... Thats at least in part true. You cant read your build thread without being inspired.
 

S3Alex

Rarely neutral
Gold Supporter
:relaxed:
Bankruptsy or divorce...maybe both. :anguished:

I'll just tell her its S3Alex's fault... Thats at least in part true. You cant read your build thread without being inspired.

LOL...you can't read my thread without your bank balance having expired....

I blame a lot of people here and on VAGOC.
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
I have word...

My BCS has landed at TTS Roadsports HQ so tomorrow its back in the shop for the fit up and the addition of RS4 fuel valve. Happy days.
The TTE420 will have to wait for another day, only so much you can fit into a day...
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
May have made a somewhat rash impulse purchase... Made some equiries about a set of VWR Streetsport Plus coilovers. Turns out they are now discontinued and VWR dont have any.
Short story short...
Had a returned call telling me they can offer a kit after all! They've been used once to test the fitting on a car and as such has a couple of bolt marks on them, hey ho no drama. Warranty will be honoured as a new kit by VWR and I can have them at a somewhat reduced price. Couldnt say no at the price so went for it. Happy days, coilovers on the way...
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
All done, pictures speak for themselves...beautifully engineered and manufactured, cant compliment BCS enough on that.


Hoping it will calm down a little its a touch on the boomy side at the moment which is what I was hoping to avoid with opting for the prestige system. Sure it will be fine.

Using my butt dynol I have to say I cant tell if there is any performance gain from the addition of the exhaust and the RS4 fuel valve but i can say it does feel a more linear delivery. I'll see if I can log it tomorrow, that should show me if there's any difference.

So next up is the TTE420 fitment... That will be a good day
 

S3_Jacko

Registered User
Just had a read of your full thread there and for a man that pays so much attention to the handling of the car, I was surprised that coilovers were so far down the list...

Another vast improvement you could make to the handling would be to ditch the standard wheels with the spacers and get yourself a lightweight wider set with a decent offset.. You'll find they make a big difference and should compliment the rest of your mods very well...

Don't hang around with the power though eh? Good work tho, keep it up..
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
Your right of course S3_Jacko, I probably shouldnt have left it this long. I have to say though to date I have been pretty happy with this setup, it is quite decent for the road, gives the car good adjustability in the corners, rides reasonably well just lacks the taughtness it really needs and still holds that dam£ed low speed understeer.

Good advice on the rims, have been contemplating a set. Think if I were to track the car I certainly would but there is one thing really holding me back and that's I'm trying to keep the exterior as standard as possible within the bounds of my ambition. Might have to get over that and sort it out... We'll see
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
Hope this may prove interesting for others considering exhaust options.
Prior to having the BCS and RS4 valve fitted yesterday I ran quick log so I had a base line. Now I know that logging in VCDS is much the same as a dyno, different day, different conditions etc. etc. but this aside I still wanted to run the exercise.
So I've just been back out to the same stretch of private road VCDS primed and off we go. I run three 4th Gear pulls just the same as yesterday and logged the results. For referance here I logged blocks 002, 020 and 115. 020 to check my revo settings and make sure I'm not pushing things to hard and the ecu is pulling the timing back, 002 to check the mass air flow and estimate power and 115 to keep an eye on boost levels.

So as you've maybe read I am Revo stage 2+ with a Wagner intercooler, Revo settings of B8 T5 F7

My findings, the Cat back and RS4 valve have made no difference in overall power, yesterday pulling 157.17g/s today pulling 156.96g/s so pretty darned close. This is where it could be intersting for anyone wishing for stage 2+ but keep things subtle and quiet, it would appear (for my car at least) that the standard catback on a BCS 200CEL downpipe is just fine and is not holding the car back power wise.

What the logging does show is that previously the ecu was pulling back the timing by upto 3.8 at WOT at very low revs which ran out to 0 further up the range. With the BCS catback and RS4 valve I am seeing only 1.8 degrees and over a much shorter rev range. Perhaps this means I now have the capacity to up the Revo settings which should increase power?

More investigation and Revo setting adjustment requried I think...
 
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S.

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you can try different settings now as you're now on the safe side. rs4 valve helps to get rid of the flat spot at 5k revs.
also did you mean that your flow is 257,17 instead of 157,17?
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
you can try different settings now as you're now on the safe side. rs4 valve helps to get rid of the flat spot at 5k revs.
also did you mean that your flow is 257,17 instead of 157,17?
S. Yes your right, 257.17g/s. 157 would have been depressing... :relaxed:
One thing I cant get on with on this forum, posts are locked after like 10mins so you cant edit them.

Looking at the details in your signiture strip we're not a million miles apart hardware wise, what do you run setting wise if you dont mind?
 
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S.

Save the manuals
hi mate. i run settings set by my tuner. B9T4F9. when i had twintercooler i run B8T5F7.
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
I may well adjust from B8 T5 F7 to B9 T5 F8 and give it another log. Up the boost and up the fuel a notch and see what it gives. I think with the Wagner IC it should take the extra boost.

Thanks for that S. Just reading your build thread...very nice indeed
 
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S.

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thank you my friend. i've sold the twintercooler with plans to buy wagner, but never got to that because i've had different things to trow money at. and the car doesn't get used as before. and ended up instead getting ic, with hpa haldex controller. it was an offer i couldn't refuse.

with first setting i noticed "the kick in the back" to be more noticable. with second one there's not much instant kick, but the car feels like it's pulling stronger.
maybe you should try same boost and fueling and try to push timming and see the logs for timming.
 

S3_Mat

Registered User
F7 to F8 is actually going leaner.. just so you are aware.. F0 is stock F1 is rich F9 is lean (use 9 for 99RON)

My Revo settings are B9 T5 F9 I use Vpower
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
F7 to F8 is actually going leaner.. just so you are aware.. F0 is stock F1 is rich F9 is lean (use 9 for 99RON)

My Revo settings are B9 T5 F9 I use Vpower
Thanks S3_Mat, I only ever run Tesco 99, Vpower or BP Ultimate, on the odd occasion I've had to put regular 95 in I keep my SPS in the glove box and have my third setting for it so I can just swap it over.
We're very close on setup so feel I should be ok with F8 but will log it (when I get change to drive it) just to be sure.
If I'm pulling back I'll just put the fuel back to 7 and log again, all good fun isn't it...

Thanks
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
So if these are in a box on the floor...


Whats on the car?

Oh, these... Happy days



Having left TTS Roadsports and driven home, getting home and realising I'd left my bag there, driving back to TTS and then home again I can tell you this modificaiton is something I should have done a long time ago. Such a wonderful experience, it rides with the sophistication of a Porsche, body and wheel control is superb, an absolute delight. We played around with the ride height and settled only 10mm lower all round from where it sat on the Eibachs.

TTS set them slap bang in the middle of their damping range (12 clicks of adjustment) after my first ride to and from TTS I increased this (to 7) by one click all round to firm up a little, rear is now spot on for the road, not harsh and just enough compliance, front needs to go up one more click I think... More stuff to play with and adjust, love it.

Also had the geo tweaked, managed to get an extra 0.5deg negative into the front camber which i was happy about, and took some toe in out of the rear to improve the mid corner adjustability.

Next Tuesday shes in again for the TTE...another good day to come.
 
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grchmason

Registered User
Great work mate and you sound over the moon thats the main thing!

It will be a slow few days waiting for the TTE I bet! Just try to go to bed earlier thats what I tell my son at Xmas when his excited lol lol!! :)
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
The strangest thing was I wasnt expecting much from them as i was really pretty happy with the Eibach setup so I think there is an element of surprise. Its just nice when you invest in something and it makes a real difference.

As for the TTE, I keep going out the garage just to look at it haha, just waiting for the day. It should be a nice way to go actually, I'll be heading to TTS Roadsports for the fitment on route to North Wales so I have a nice journey to do straight off the bat.
 

S3_Mat

Registered User
Just adding springs to these cars is never going to result in a controlled ride. They are massively under damped all round. Once you get coilovers you realise how under damped the old shocks were! Good coils + arbs and bushes and a geo setup is as important as power. IMO.

Nice selection of mods, looking forward to seeing the TTE results!
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
Probably the shortest update I've ever made...

TTE420 fitted and out on the road for TTS Roadsport to play with the Revo settings. Looking forward to the drive up to Wales this evening. :yahoo:Report back again later.
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
I knew I needed the TTE in my life, superb, such a power and torque hike. Torque builds very quickly and unlike the standard K04 doesnt drop off, midrange is huge by comparision and pulls really strong to the redline. The delivery feels smoother than stage 2+ (less peaky if you like) maybe as I'm only running standard levels of boost (1.35bar), spool is OEM I guess due to my particular TTE having the lightened turbines and exhaust port matching. Turbo whistle has actually reduced despite the silencer delete.

TTS managed to adjust the settings just right I think, logging does show the next weekness however which is the low pressure fuel pump which is running at 91% duty in the worst case. Next on the list for upgrade.

No idea on power as yet but will be running her on a dyno before Audi Driver in October I hope.

So it would appear you can run a TTE420 with decent results on revo software...who'd have thought. I will have to caveat this however as I appreciate that I could perhaps get more from it with a custom map. We'll see after she goes on the dyno... Watch this space.
 

S3Alex

Rarely neutral
Gold Supporter
I knew I needed the TTE in my life, superb, such a power and torque hike. Torque builds very quickly and unlike the standard K04 doesnt drop off, midrange is huge by comparision and pulls really strong to the redline. The delivery feels smoother than stage 2+ (less peaky if you like) maybe as I'm only running standard levels of boost (1.35bar), spool is OEM I guess due to my particular TTE having the lightened turbines and exhaust port matching. Turbo whistle has actually reduced despite the silencer delete.

TTS managed to adjust the settings just right I think, logging does show the next weekness however which is the low pressure fuel pump which is running at 91% duty in the worst case. Next on the list for upgrade.

No idea on power as yet but will be running her on a dyno before Audi Driver in October I hope.

So it would appear you can run a TTE420 with decent results on revo software...who'd have thought. I will have to caveat this however as I appreciate that I could perhaps get more from it with a custom map. We'll see after she goes on the dyno... Watch this space.

You're finding a lot of the things I found when moving to a bigger turbo.

Smoother,quieter and faster.

LP fuel pump starts to run into problems at around the 420-440bhp mark,so that would fit.
There are various ways around this,with either the USP Motorsports auxiliary(boost triggered) pump system that I use,or an RS pump,which may require some software updates to your map.

Both are good for 600bhp.

Re the boost levels....again with a bigger turbo,you're running less boost to get more gas flow than with a small one worked to death.

Mine can turn out 600+bhp at 2.1bar,where the previous turbo/ECU combination was struggling to get beyond 500bhp.
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
So I've been in touch with Toni at TK Engineering in Germany (amazingly helpful chap), this started with a query over the Revo stage 2+ software and it compatability with the TTE, by all accounts he's Revo's go to for 'not so standard Revo programming and development. He's developed an in house lpfp thats drops straight in and will run with no software tweaks and works with the stock pump controller. I'm just waiting for a return on the price, sounds like a winner to me.

As a second note, I'm already struggling with the word compromise which running the TTE with Revo is. \i've started looking elsewhere for a map. Obvious customs like R-Tech pop into my head but I had a discussion with APR HQ and they are launching a TTE420 specific map at the end of October. Development is almost complete now with the Beta maps making a nice 420bhp on a UK Cupra even in its unfinished state. Apparently hardware requirements over 2+ will include a 155bar fuel pressure reg valve (not RS4) and an uprated lpfp.

Torn where to go with that.
 

S3Alex

Rarely neutral
Gold Supporter
These guys can do you a 155bar fuel pressure regulator.

http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show/Audi/2.0T+FSI/Audi+Performance+Rail+Valve

Their standard valve is listed here,but they can make up to 155bar valves.

If you already have a source for uprated LPFPs sorted,then go with that,but otherwise the USP auxiliary system,or an appropriate RS pump should work.
You may want to include Rick @ Unicorn for custom mapping.

Otherwise contact Simon @ TTE who will have a list.

I was a little disappointed at Revo's inflexibility,but having said that APR are doing a bit of an about face by programming for a kit other than their own.

As I said previously,the stock S3 LPFP maxes out between 420-440bhp( we saw enough fuelling for 440bhp from mine) and the reason for going to a 155bar regulator is to increase flow from the injectors,assuming you're using stock injectors.
This obviously requires some adjustment to the mapping,and your guys seem aware of that.
 

s3_trev

Northern Ireland
Very interesting thread. I cant remember reading a thread discussing the TTE the software and hardware real world requirements like this. Thanks for sharing!!
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
Alex/Team ASN, I'm thinking the easier option here would be to drop in the TTRS/RS3 lpfp but before I go and buy one I just wanted to check that you don't need to modify the float to keep the fuel level display accurate? Sure I read something about that somewhere...

As I understand from my research so far, it's a straight drop in and will run just fine on the standard s3 pump controller? Welcome comments and info.

Thanks all
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
So think I have it sussed, yellow top TTRS lpfp will drop straight in, will run 'ok' with stock controller but possibility of overheating it unless mapped in on a custom to reduce duty cycle to match.

Which isn't a problem, will have pump fitted this coming Friday mapped up in Stockport with Rick on the 1st October. Job done!
 

Dt_racing

Registered User
So my research on LPFP's was faulty and could very nearly have been a problem had it not been for TTS Roadsports help who removed the aux/transfer pump from their demo car adn fitted to mine. I thought I would share this as it may stop someone else from making the same mistake, as it goes all it well for me (now) and the TTRS LPFP is in and works a treat.

My findings:
The TTRS lpfp does indeed drop straight into a facelift S3
The TTRS lpfp does not just drop straight into a pre-facelift S3 with the BHZ engine code.

Early S3's have a different connection from the aux/transfer fuel pump on the passenger side to the main LPFP on the drivers side. Also the connection from the main LPFP to the fuel time needs to be taken from the old pump and fitted to the new otherwise its a female to female connection.

So fixes for early S3's, easiest way is to buy a TTRS LPFP and aux/transfer pump complete with all lines. Aux/transfer is about £90. Full setup can be had for around £300 plus fitting.

Hope this saves someone else a scare.

Only managed to grab a couple of shots.


Last note, anyone who says the fuel filter on these are 'lifetime' needs to take a fuel pump out and look in their tank...full of nasties in there.
 

Ice man

Registered User
I have fitted The TTRS LPFP in my car witout changing the AUX pump with luck in my pre-facelift S3 with BHZ engine. only need to change over the small piping line with correct connection that connects to AUX pump fom the old pump to the new TTRS pump. Also one great solution with TTRS LPFP with stock conroller and not get overhating issu is to use a PM3 pump amplifier from http://torqbyte.com/products/torqbyte-pm3, they have now made a plug and play adaper so wery easy to mount. strongely recomend this solution. no need to alter pump duty cycle in map with this.:)
 

RedDejavu

Registered User
I have fitted The TTRS LPFP in my car witout changing the AUX pump with luck in my pre-facelift S3 with BHZ engine. only need to change over the small piping line with correct connection that connects to AUX pump fom the old pump to the new TTRS pump. Also one great solution with TTRS LPFP with stock conroller and not get overhating issu is to use a PM3 pump amplifier from http://torqbyte.com/products/torqbyte-pm3, they have now made a plug and play adaper so wery easy to mount. strongely recomend this solution. no need to alter pump duty cycle in map with this.:)

Interesting device however well overpriced. Personally I'd stick to decent custom mapping and save extra money towards other mods.
 

TTRick

Registered User
Forgive my ignorance, but how can "decent custom mapping" get around the hardware limitations of the factory J538 PWM controller being unable to power a heavy electrical load that is the TTRS pump?

I suppose you could lower the requested pressure so that the pump is driven at a lower duty cycle which will result in less current being supplied by the J538 controller and so prevent it from damage, but then you aren't really using your TTRS pump at its maximum potential which begs the question of what was the point of getting this pump in first place?

Also, the only other proper way to power a TTRS pump is with a TTRS J538 Fuel Pump Module Part No. 8J0-906-071-A, which sells for $438 (https://www.ecstuning.com/ES2213697/) and is definitely not plug and play.
 

S3Alex

Rarely neutral
Gold Supporter
Forgive my ignorance, but how can "decent custom mapping" get around the hardware limitations of the factory J538 PWM controller being unable to power a heavy electrical load that is the TTRS pump?

I suppose you could lower the requested pressure so that the pump is driven at a lower duty cycle which will result in less current being supplied by the J538 controller and so prevent it from damage, but then you aren't really using your TTRS pump at its maximum potential which begs the question of what was the point of getting this pump in first place?

Also, the only other proper way to power a TTRS pump is with a TTRS J538 Fuel Pump Module Part No. 8J0-906-071-A, which sells for $438 (https://www.ecstuning.com/ES2213697/) and is definitely not plug and play.

Hi Rick,

As you can see,there have been a number of issues around fuelling an S3 (or other similar car) beyond the limits of the stock fuel pump.

The system VAG have used is quite crafty in doing away with the feed/return system such as with a set of Bosch 044 pumps,and using a demand system with a PWM controller.
One way around it is the USP auxiliary pump system(which is boost triggered,and when active,reduces the duty cycle of the stock pump,and together can fuel for over 600bhp)and another was the short-lived APR aux pump system which used the LP rail pressure to trigger it,and do the same thing.

Using an RS pump will also fuel for over 600bhp,but as you say,and others have found,can lead to overheating the S3's PWM controller.

The whole point as you've also said,has to be getting the S3 fuelled adequately for over 440bhp,where the stock pump maxes out,and if you can't run the RS pump beyond that level,there is no point.

I'm fortunate in having the USP system,and another solution in the shape of the new ECU I have,but for others,finding the right drop in pump is the first step,and then running it correctly is the next.

I do think that for the TTE420 and other hybrids,not running beyond 440bhp,that a bigger capacity pump may not always be a requirement.
We certainly didnt run into fuelling issues until we hit 440bhp,on a GT3071.
 

TTRick

Registered User
I'm also looking the USP Hobb's switch solution as many people have successfully used it, but one issue that keeps bothering me is that, in mind, that approach takes away the ECU's control of the system pressure. As I understand it, the VAG low pressure system is a closed-loop control system, which means that the ECU is constantly adjusting the pump duty to servo the fuel pressure around some pressure setpoint that is requested in the ECU tune. If, at some point, a second pump turns on and suddenly raises the system pressure, isn't the ECU going to panic and actually lower the duty of the OEM pump as it's frantically trying to compensate for an increase in pressure it doesn't "feel" should be happening?
 

S3Alex

Rarely neutral
Gold Supporter
I'm also looking the USP Hobb's switch solution as many people have successfully used it, but one issue that keeps bothering me is that, in mind, that approach takes away the ECU's control of the system pressure. As I understand it, the VAG low pressure system is a closed-loop control system, which means that the ECU is constantly adjusting the pump duty to servo the fuel pressure around some pressure setpoint that is requested in the ECU tune. If, at some point, a second pump turns on and suddenly raises the system pressure, isn't the ECU going to panic and actually lower the duty of the OEM pump as it's frantically trying to compensate for an increase in pressure it doesn't "feel" should be happening?

The best way I can answer this is as follows:

Firstly,I've used the system for a few years now,from a GT3071 at around 440bhp,all the way through to a GTX3582 with a Syvecs ECU,run to over 600bhp.

I can also monitor LP rail pressures via the ECU display,and the system software will shut the car down if limits are exceeded.
I can see fluctuations in the rail pressure as the controller adjusts things according to load and throttle opening,but it never changes much,and never enough to drop the AFR,even at full throttle.
For sure,the VAG system is closed loop,but if you consider an external pump running more fuel in at a certain point,all that happens is the duty cycle of of the stock PWM controlled pump is backed off for that time.

The PWM controller doesn't know there's another pump there,all it's seeing is rail pressure,and adjusting the pump rate to suit that.

Quite a few people(including one of the other solution manufacturers that no longer sells a pump) took a pop at it,but that fact is that it does work,and reliably even on a car like mine.
 

TTRick

Registered User
Alex, thanks for the detailed explanation and apologies to the OP for sidetracking his build thread.

So to summarize, our options for big-turbo set-ups are:

1. USP strap-on pump (internal)
2. APR's in-line pump (external)
3. TTRS Pump with a TTRS J538 Module Part No. 8J0-906-071-A
4. Torqbyte PM3 with a TTRS / DW65v / Stealth in-tank pump

Missed anything?
 
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