S3: Finally did the suspension...

[Dennis Moeller]

Finally got around to install the B8's, H&R 25mm, MKIV R32 rear ARB and some uprated droplinks front and rear. It's a transformation that's hard to explain. It's a new car now. Handles very well. Here we go...My review:

Low speeds:
Sucks up bumps way better than OEM.
Not bouncy at all - I've tried the H&R Cup kit on a 8L (A3) and the Weitec Hicon GT adjustable on a 8P and they were both VERY bouncy at lowish speeds.
This kit even handles speed bumps with ease.
Acceleration: now without the dramatic wheelie effect, where the car squats and the front lifts. It's just flat on the tarmac.
Braking: Improved feel when you brake into corners. Now the car is stabile and doesn't feel "on the edge". Also nose doesn't dive nearly as much so the car feels much easier to steer while braking hard.

High speeds:
Dampers tighten up when they need to. You definately "feel"the road better and it's just amazing how much faster the car is able to go around corners at high(er) speed. Changing direction at high speeds is just a matter of thinking where you wanna go - the car just obey
The Golf MKIV R32 rear ARB works a treat. It's 19mm and coming from the OEM 15mm it was needed! Took away 60-70% of the body roll. Basically stabilizes the car. Had to drop the exhaust and remove heatshield, but no biggie. Worse to come when the front ARB will be changed

Now the tires are the limit, not the suspension...

I will fit a larger Neuspeed front ARB to eliminate the last bit of bodyroll and I DEFINATELY need to get the Neuspeed adjustable tie rods. The camber is really off now (good in turns I guess - but funny looking and bad for tirewear)

Cellphone pic's:

Old vs New

OEM S3 vs OEM R32

Rear finished

To the scrappie...may this never find a way to a car again

Front finished

Upgraded droplink

The stance

How it hopefully will look in a few weeks time...(not lowered on that pic)

Cheers

 

[MartayMcFly]

Is it an OEM R32 rear ARB? I was thinking about Neuspeed 21mm F and 19mm R bars.

I'm still undecided whether to just go full out, like you have (B8s, H&Rs ARBs, droplinks) or just get my OEM springs replaced as a temporary fix and wait for a bit... it's a lot of money, but looks (and sounds) worth it.

 

[campbell]

good stuff mate, if you dont mine me asking-how much did it all cost?

 

[Dani_B19]

Wish i had the money

 

[RmcMills]

Nice pics, looking to do the same with mine when the money comes along. With it being lowered will you now need adjustable tie bars on the back to correct the wheel alignment?

 

[fingermouse]

almost the same set up as mine, ive got a front R32 arb also and adjustable rear arms for the camber. What are the uprated drop links ???? do they make any difference???

 

[Dennis Moeller]

Is it an OEM R32 rear ARB? I was thinking about Neuspeed 21mm F and 19mm R bars.

I'm still undecided whether to just go full out, like you have (B8s, H&Rs ARBs, droplinks) or just get my OEM springs replaced as a temporary fix and wait for a bit... it's a lot of money, but looks (and sounds) worth it.

I was going for the Neuspeed on both front- and rear axle but the R32 ARB was cheaper pluss no one sells the Neu's in Norway. If I were you I wouldn't replace the springs without doing the shocks too. Your ride will suffer even more and you will wear out your bad shocks even quicker. The Bilsteins were always on my last on my two previous Auid's but I always ended up with something else...Now I know there's no other route (for me).

good stuff mate, if you dont mine me asking-how much did it all cost?

Well I bought the lot in Norway so prices would be less in the the UK but roughly 1500 quid. Take a look on Awesome or DPM, you'll find the prices for most parts there. R32 ARB came at 150 quid at the dealer pluss a few extra coins for the bushes. Just don't buy the brackets for the R32. The S3 will do just fine.

Wish i had the money

Yeah it is kinda expensive (if the old suspension isn't broke), but the standard suspension is so poor that the car really seserves it tho...

Nice pics, looking to do the same with mine when the money comes along. With it being lowered will you now need adjustable tie bars on the back to correct the wheel alignment?

Yes you WILL need those. Camber is way off and it really looks strange seeing the car from behind...

almost the same set up as mine, ive got a front R32 arb also and adjustable rear arms for the camber. What are the uprated drop links ???? do they make any difference???

The upgraded droplinks up front are slightly fatter, MUCH better quality and with bigger ballbearings. Don't know if you really need them or they make a difference but since I was changing everything I thought that these were perfect. The old ones were totally shot. Loose and not really that firm anymore. Bought them off an english ebay site...will see if I can find the invoice.

I think the R32 front ARB will be too massive...it's 25 or 26mm right? That way you'll keep the understeer factory setup...in fact you'll enhance it slightly. Safe, but not that funny once you're on the track or really using the car (on a private raod that is.....). It's preference tho...What adjustable tie rods did you get? And at which camber are they set? Experience with it?

 

[fingermouse]

got a set of ECS rear arms and set the camber to -1 deg. Got to get it rechecked as the suspension looks to have settled now so may need resetting.

I followed Glens setup in the stickies he also helped me with getting the right set up

 

[ianysm]

Hmm, i'm not convinced that much of a setup would be much better on the local roads around me. Perhaps the uprated anti roll bars though? Especially given the cost.

 

[WildBruce]

I think when I change insurance companies I may go away and do all of these mods, assuming I can afford it at the time.
I recall seeing a thread about some adjustable tie bars that snapped, seemed to be a common problem with that make? Any news on that?

 

[<tuffty/>]

I think the R32 front ARB will be too massive...it's 25 or 26mm right?

23mm IIRC

http://audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?t=55876

<tuffty/>

 

[Dennis Moeller]

I think when I change insurance companies I may go away and do all of these mods, assuming I can afford it at the time.
I recall seeing a thread about some adjustable tie bars that snapped, seemed to be a common problem with that make? Any news on that?

Deffo worth the money. Go for the lot instead of doing bit by bit. One go at alignment too. Cheaper that way. Yeah I'v read that story about tie rods that snapped. Seem to remember that it was Forge but not sure. I'm getting the Neuspeed since I've had nothing but good products from them...

23mm IIRC

http://audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?t=55876

<tuffty/>

Aah, not more than 23mm. Might go for that one then...But that would be an equal upgrade (front/rear) then since I've upgraded 4mm at the back (15 to 19mm) and front is 19mm standard. I really wanted to disguise the understeer theme by getting an 21 or 22mm up front. Any comments on that..?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Ess_Three has done tests etc and has suggested that in his experience a 22mm front ARB with a 19mm rear ARB balances the car out.

I think it rather depends on what you want out of the car and how you prefer to drive. I personally would be ok with a little understeer as I don't drive hard, others may prefer a more neutral setup or even a little oversteery with a 22mm or 21mm but of course its also down to how much you are prepared to spend for that nth degree and if you feel you will benefit from it.

I for one am seriously considering R32 ARB's front and rear...

<tuffty/>

 

[MikeA3]

Dennis - Looks spot on - I'm in the process of ordering the same bits although I'm going for the Neuspeed ARB's front & rear.

Did you do the work yourself?

 

[Ess_Three]

Hmm, i'm not convinced that much of a setup would be much better on the local roads around me. Perhaps the uprated anti roll bars though? Especially given the cost.

It would...
The springs and dampers make the car (along with a decent alignment when adjustable rear tie bars are used).

The ARBs just finish it off nicely...

Uprated ARBs on standard suspension is not a great idea in my view, the standard dampers aren't fit for the standard springs, never mind giving them more work to do.

If you do anything, do springs and dampers....or if you don't want it lowerd, do dampers on standard springs.
Standard Audi dampers are terrible when new...and they don't get any better!

 

[Ess_Three]

Good work Dennis,
I'm pleased you are happy with it.

What alignment settings did you go for?
What tyre pressures do you run?

 

[Dennis Moeller]

Dennis - Looks spot on - I'm in the process of ordering the same bits although I'm going for the Neuspeed ARB's front & rear.

Did you do the work yourself?

Yes I did it myself...was the fourth or fifth A3 and Golf I did suspension work on so this time it only took 45 min. at the front and roughly 1.5 hour at back. I had to call in help to get the exhaust down/up...the OEM exhaust weighs a tonne...at least it felt that way.

Good work Dennis,
I'm pleased you are happy with it.

What alignment settings did you go for?
What tyre pressures do you run?

Yeah I'm extremely happy with it...in fact I'm PSYCHED about it!!!

Thanks a lot for pointing me in the right direction mate. Good with people who have tested things out...

I haven't bought the Neuspeed Tie bars yet as I came across a set of mint condition 18X8.5" ET30 Rial Daytona Race wheels...just had to get them and it did set me back 1400 quid...Jeeez, I must be mad?!?!?

So the next paycheck will probably cover tie bars, front ARB and dogbone mount (maybe even spacers at the rear). Then it's time for alignment. I'm on lousy winter tires right now so no real testing on the B-roads yet. But Wildbruce PM'ed me with some setup files and pic's of this VAG tool the garage must use...I will take a good look at your thread and probably mix and trix out the right balance.

Tire pressure...I'm not sure but somewhere between 2.5 and 2.7 bar?!? Any suggestions? Also 2 of the tires on the Rial wheels are worn 2-3mm more than the other (been on a GolfMKIV), could that work if I mount the best tires at the front axle...really didn't planned to drop 1000 on tires right now??!! Btw. tires are Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta 225/40-18...

 

[A3Tom]

Good jobs, looks spot on

I was shocked at how much a decent suspension set up made to my A3. It was crap as standard, its now how it always should have been from the factory in my opinion.

Enjoy it, I still have the 'grin factor' when pushing on through some decent roads in mine.

T

 

[ianysm]

It would...
The springs and dampers make the car (along with a decent alignment when adjustable rear tie bars are used).

The ARBs just finish it off nicely...

Uprated ARBs on standard suspension is not a great idea in my view, the standard dampers aren't fit for the standard springs, never mind giving them more work to do.

If you do anything, do springs and dampers....or if you don't want it lowerd, do dampers on standard springs.
Standard Audi dampers are terrible when new...and they don't get any better!

Thats what i wanted to hear. I guess the OEM dampers are only going to get worse too. You're right, don't want lowered as the roads round here are too harsh!

 

[Ess_Three]

So the next paycheck will probably cover tie bars, front ARB and dogbone mount (maybe even spacers at the rear). Then it's time for alignment. I'm on lousy winter tires right now so no real testing on the B-roads yet. But Wildbruce PM'ed me with some setup files and pic's of this VAG tool the garage must use...I will take a good look at your thread and probably mix and trix out the right balance.

Just ensure you go for something more aggressive than standard, to make best use of all your new bits.

Tire pressure...I'm not sure but somewhere between 2.5 and 2.7 bar?!? Any suggestions?

Try the setting for 2 people at the front, and a full load at the rear.
I found fronts worked best slightly under standard pressur and the rears up at the full load pressure.

What are the standard settings for an S3 on 18s?
Anyone know?
36psi/36psi found familiar.


Try 2.2/2.3 bar F and 2.4/2.5 bar R.
Somewhere around there...those work well on 225/40/18 tyres.

Then play up and down from there, one axle at a time.
I think you'll find 2.3/2.5 would work.

Also 2 of the tires on the Rial wheels are worn 2-3mm more than the other (been on a GolfMKIV), could that work if I mount the best tires at the front axle...really didn't planned to drop 1000 on tires right now??!! Btw. tires are Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta 225/40-18...

Yeah, stick the best on the front...
Never tried the tyres to comment.

 

[clcollins]

Looking very nice, how long did it take you to do the install, and how hard would you say it was to do?

 

[Dennis Moeller]

Rear is as simple as it gets. Front is a bit more complicated but nothing serious I would say. First time and without airgun and proper socket spread tool you could end up working at it for hours and learn the hard way. Next time you'll know what to do ;-)

A mechanic: max 2 hours

A noob: all day...Nah...3-4 hours

 

[Dennis Moeller]

Just ensure you go for something more aggressive than standard, to make best use of all your new bits.

Try the setting for 2 people at the front, and a full load at the rear.
I found fronts worked best slightly under standard pressur and the rears up at the full load pressure.

What are the standard settings for an S3 on 18s?
Anyone know?
36psi/36psi found familiar.


Try 2.2/2.3 bar F and 2.4/2.5 bar R.
Somewhere around there...those work well on 225/40/18 tyres.

Then play up and down from there, one axle at a time.
I think you'll find 2.3/2.5 would work.




Yeah, stick the best on the front...
Never tried the tyres to comment.

Yoy really think I should stick the best at the front. A mate told me otherways and I now ride with the best tires at the rear. As he thought that if the rear tires had a smaller "total size" the Haldex would think that the wheels are spinning slightly and therefore engage all the time?!?!

Confused now...

I now have 2.3 front and 2.4 rear...seems all good but no REAL testing and/or spirited drive yet. Haven't really had the time...but this weekend: YES!!!!!

 

[Ess_Three]

Yoy really think I should stick the best at the front. A mate told me otherways and I now ride with the best tires at the rear. As he thought that if the rear tires had a smaller "total size" the Haldex would think that the wheels are spinning slightly and therefore engage all the time?!?!

Confused now...

I'd put the best tyres with the deepest tread at the front as it's predominantly FWD and you wull understeer less with better front end grip...besides, you'll not be making any corners if you loose front end grip completely in the wet!

Haldex needs 15 degrees or more of speed difference front to back to start to engage....not the few mm in rolling radius between nearly new and well worn.

I now have 2.3 front and 2.4 rear...seems all good but no REAL testing and/or spirited drive yet. Haven't really had the time...but this weekend: YES!!!!!

I think you'll find the fronts pretty close - depends a lot on the tyre. Rears will probably give you better turn in if they are up a bit. Try it and see...

 

[fingermouse]

I think most people (for safety ) put the best tyres on the rear as the back end will break quicker with worn out rubber on it. But if you are aware and are after performace then this can be a advantage.

 

[Khufu]

I believe putting better tyres on the back would make FWD safer if trying to avoid lift off oversteer. With the Quattro your powering the rear wheels too so it wont be as bad.

 

[MartayMcFly]

I believe putting better tyres on the back would make FWD safer if trying to avoid lift off oversteer. With the Quattro your powering the rear wheels too so it wont be as bad.

As I just pointed out in a different thread, the S3 doesn't have quattro. The Haldex clutch system is VW's 4motion... FWD that can put power to the rear if needed. I suppose putting better rubber on the back might help traction in a straight line, marginally, since the worn fronts would slip and the RWD benefit would come in... but I'm pretty sure I'd rather be able to steer a car than try and squeeze an extra 1000th off the line.

Put them on the front, and be careful with swinging the tail.

 

[Ess_Three]

Come along lads...
How much power and torque does your S3s have?

The S3 has plenty of grip - too much in some ways...and even at 275+ BHP and 320+ lb-ft you struggle to get wheelspin - you have to deliberately provoke it to get the tail to break traction.

How much of a problem is a legal, but semi-worn set of rear tyres going to be?

I'm aware of the advice to put new tyres on the back, and in my opinion its as much to stop the terminally stupid from forgetting their tyres are greasy and loosing steering in the first few hundred miles, as anything else.

The S3 is FWD mostly...and it understeers. A lot.
Fit the best gripping tyres to the front and try to reduce understeer and gain front end grip.

If, and it's a big if, the worn rears give you fractionally less traction at the rear and allow you to get the rear into play...shout hurah!...and welcome to the big wide world of power oversteer.
(It's not going to happen!)

 

[Dennis Moeller]

Ess...you're a funny man. I enjoy reading your post posts. Well put!!

Thanks lads...