S3/A3 ride/handling...? Honest opinions

[Gorillajebus]

I use 19" OEM Audi wheels on my S3 which doesn't have the magnetic ride suspension.

In comparison to the normal suspension in combination with the 18" Rotor wheels the car feels a little more stable with the 19" wheels.
I also feel like the car is less bouncy now than it was with the 18" wheels.
The steering is a little heavier now with the bigger wheels.
Changed from 225/40/18 to 235/35/19.
Surely the improved feeling could be caused by the Michelin tires alone and have nothing to do with the size of the wheels.

I thought about upgrading the suspension using a Bilstein B16 pss10.
Still not sure whether its worth the expenses.

 

[Jon-SST]

This has nothing to do with the so called electric steering.
Its the way the cars are set up these days.
The only difference between them, is one pump is driven directly off the engine, & the other is driven by an electric motor.
The feedback through the steering wheel would be exactly the same regardless.

The journo's said the same about the 991 when it was released & yet you cant tell the difference when driving in any way. I think the problem is all in the mind, when people are ill informed & have no mechanical knowledge.

Sorry if I offended mate but that's just my opinion from driving cars. All I know is that I have owned many performance and ordinary cars over the past 25 years with hydraulic steering and the difference to me between them and the new electric steering cars is light and day. My last car , a golf gtd which I only kept for a few months honestly felt like it had play station steering wheel.

May I ask is all electric steering the same ? or is some assisted and some fully electric ?
I assumed (probably incorrectly) with the golf that as I couldn't feel anything back from the road that there was no physical connection between the steering wheel and the wheels.

 

[michael-s3]

Sorry if I offended mate but that's just my opinion from driving cars. All I know is that I have owned many performance and ordinary cars over the past 25 years with hydraulic steering and the difference to me between them and the new electric steering cars is light and day. My last car , a golf gtd which I only kept for a few months honestly felt like it had play station steering wheel.

May I ask is all electric steering the same ? or is some assisted and some fully electric ?
I assumed (probably incorrectly) with the golf that as I couldn't feel anything back from the road that there was no physical connection between the steering wheel and the wheels.

http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ering-a-comprehensive-comparison-test-feature

 

[kanecullen89]

Imo Haldex cripples S3 and RS3 models. Haldex is just no good for performance orientated cars. Much better for mini 4x4 vehicles like the ford kuga, Q3 etc.

Torsen is a much better setup for performance but is vastly more expensive and would require reworking of the chassis but it would have been possible if the designers really wanted to.

It's not the answer to all problems, steering etc but I believe there would be far fewer complaints of understeer.

 

[veeeight]

Re Hydraulic vs EPAS

There are fundemental differences between hydraulic and EPAS, 2 big areas are friction (a lot more friction in EPAS than hydraulic, more moving parts), and inertia.

These 2 things can be overcome to match a hydraulic system by good calibration & programming of the EPAS system, but this is the exception, rather than the norm.

The inherent inertia of an EPAS system is responsible for the "lack of feel" and "accuracy" and "feedback" so often levied at EPAS, (you have to slow down a motor and reverse it, speed it up again, imagine the quick steering and counter steering required going around a bend on the limit) - again, with good design and calibration/programming, you can get EPAS to emulate a good hydraulic system - again, this is the exception rather than the norm.

And then we come to road feel, what the surface is like, feedback for grip etc. Because the EPAS motor is now compensating for the additional friction inherent in the system, filtering is now involved. And it is this that can also filter out the wanted sensations.

With a hydraulic system you're just opening valves to let pressurised fluid pass - a lot more instantaneous, less friction and less inertia involved - and no filtering.

It can be done (getting EPAS up to the standard of Hydraulic) - but requires considerable effort on the part of the manufacturer, sadly for most mass market cars little time is spent doing this.

In addition - with mass market models, very often the initial calibration is done on one model, with very little time afforded to variations of that model (different wheels, different tyres etc.) - so you end up with the EPAS calibration being optimised for one specific model in the range, which doesn't necessarily suit the variants.

 

[Pulp84]

Re Hydraulic vs EPAS

There are fundemental differences between hydraulic and EPAS, 2 big areas are friction (a lot more friction in EPAS than hydraulic, more moving parts), and inertia.

These 2 things can be overcome to match a hydraulic system by good calibration & programming of the EPAS system, but this is the exception, rather than the norm.

The inherent inertia of an EPAS system is responsible for the "lack of feel" and "accuracy" and "feedback" so often levied at EPAS, (you have to slow down a motor and reverse it, speed it up again, imagine the quick steering and counter steering required going around a bend on the limit) - again, with good design and calibration/programming, you can get EPAS to emulate a good hydraulic system - again, this is the exception rather than the norm.

And then we come to road feel, what the surface is like, feedback for grip etc. Because the EPAS motor is now compensating for the additional friction inherent in the system, filtering is now involved. And it is this that can also filter out the wanted sensations.

With a hydraulic system you're just opening valves to let pressurised fluid pass - a lot more instantaneous, less friction and less inertia involved - and no filtering.

It can be done (getting EPAS up to the standard of Hydraulic) - but requires considerable effort on the part of the manufacturer, sadly for most mass market cars little time is spent doing this.

In addition - with mass market models, very often the initial calibration is done on one model, with very little time afforded to variations of that model (different wheels, different tyres etc.) - so you end up with the EPAS calibration being optimised for one specific model in the range, which doesn't necessarily suit the variants.

Great post veeeight and learnt something there!

The only EPAS system I have driven that I liked and felt was weighted perfectly was the systems on the 911 (991 GT3 specifically) and Macan S. They reminded me of my BMW's from the early / mid 00's that had hydraulic systems and gave you the "feeling" you knew exactly what the front of the car was doing. Porsche seem to get the calibration just right.

I will also add that I find the variable / progressive rack system on the 8V/Golf MK7 does not help matters. I have personally found it can go from light to heavy feel with little to no warning - for example I have been driving very spirited down a fast country B road (steering is heavy and precise) and then come to a sharp right hand bend that you have to slow down to around 20mph to negotiate safely. At this point the steering goes much lighter and very inaccurate where you have been using fairly heavy inputs to all of my sudden needing to use delicate / light inputs. It's done this also on approach and negotiation of mini roundabouts - heavy to light.

Anybody else noted the variable rack can do this in some scenarios?

 

[Jon-SST]

Thanks Michael , great article.

Thanks V8 , informative as ever.

 

[mfl]

Great post veeeight and learnt something there!

I will also add that I find the variable / progressive rack system on the 8V/Golf MK7 does not help matters. I have personally found it can go from light to heavy feel with little to no warning - for example I have been driving very spirited down a fast country B road (steering is heavy and precise) and then come to a sharp right hand bend that you have to slow down to around 20mph to negotiate safely. At this point the steering goes much lighter and very inaccurate where you have been using fairly heavy inputs to all of my sudden needing to use delicate / light inputs. It's done this also on approach and negotiation of mini roundabouts - heavy to light.

Anybody else noted the variable rack can do this in some scenarios?

I have the steering setting on 'comfort' in my individual settings, rather than 'auto' to minimise this problem. I found on some sweeping corners, near my house with a 70km/h speed limit that mid-way through the corner the steering would go from light to heavy and as the corners have a 1 metre high jersey kerb in the dividing strip, it was disconcerting to say the least.

The service tech at my dealer suggested the setting, to get around the issue of the steering effort changing mid corner.

 

[rams_s3]

Don't think ARB's are the issue, they got that bit right, you can get lift off oversteer very easily in the S3, so the rear/front ARB ratios are in the right ball park.

Where do you drive your s3 to get lift off oversteer?

 

[veeeight]

Around corners and roundabouts

Not on the straights obvs

 

[mfl]

Around corners and roundabouts

Not on the straights obvs

yes you can't do this in an S3

 

[S3quatt]

Great post veeeight and learnt something there!

The only EPAS system I have driven that I liked and felt was weighted perfectly was the systems on the 911 (991 GT3 specifically) and Macan S. They reminded me of my BMW's from the early / mid 00's that had hydraulic systems and gave you the "feeling" you knew exactly what the front of the car was doing. Porsche seem to get the calibration just right.

I will also add that I find the variable / progressive rack system on the 8V/Golf MK7 does not help matters. I have personally found it can go from light to heavy feel with little to no warning - for example I have been driving very spirited down a fast country B road (steering is heavy and precise) and then come to a sharp right hand bend that you have to slow down to around 20mph to negotiate safely. At this point the steering goes much lighter and very inaccurate where you have been using fairly heavy inputs to all of my sudden needing to use delicate / light inputs. It's done this also on approach and negotiation of mini roundabouts - heavy to light.

Anybody else noted the variable rack can do this in some scenarios?

I can relate to that, it was a 991 I was driving & it felt perfect & not much difference in feedback from what I get in the 997.
This was being discussed with my instructor at the Porsche driving school & he was telling me that they had a bunch of motoring journo's down shortly after they first brought it out & all those reviews were posted about the lack of feel.

What they had actually done to prove the point, was install the new (electrical) system in a 997, & fit the hydraulic system into a 997 without telling the journalists. Every single one of them claimed the older 997 had the better feedback, thus proving they couldnt tell the difference anyway!

RE: the variable rack (Assistance). Coming from a long line of Audi's, it was most noticeable in an old 1992 S2 I had. When driving slow for parking etc. It used to be really light. As soon as you went over around 30mph, you could really feel the steering tighten up to the point that it honestly felt as if the assist had completely disconnected.
It didn't kick back in until around <20mph which was quite a weird sensation. Exactly as you described but a little less refined than the modern version.

 

[S3quatt]

Sorry if I offended mate but that's just my opinion from driving cars. All I know is that I have owned many performance and ordinary cars over the past 25 years with hydraulic steering and the difference to me between them and the new electric steering cars is light and day. My last car , a golf gtd which I only kept for a few months honestly felt like it had play station steering wheel.

May I ask is all electric steering the same ? or is some assisted and some fully electric ?
I assumed (probably incorrectly) with the golf that as I couldn't feel anything back from the road that there was no physical connection between the steering wheel and the wheels.

None taken, & apologies if I sounded like having a rant LOL! I may have had a couple of shandies!

I cant say for sure if they are all the same, but I know what you mean about the disconnected feeling.
Having swapped from a fully sorted 8L to the 8V, I just accepted it was the way things are going now.
My other regular drives are an old RAV4 & RR Evoque so the S3 still feels connected to the road a bit better than them!

I recently had a decent drive of an A5, & it feels like the feedback is better through the wheel, but needs more of a turn input for the same reaction of the S3...
I guess we will just have to accept that its the way forward

 

[veeeight]

Re variable rack

There are 2 things on a S3 that are variable re the steering

Variable assistance
and
Variable Ratio

 

[s4mmie_]

I have to echo the statements in this thread about the S3 suspension. Stiff and bouncy would sum it up for me. I don't mind firm suspension, but the S3 is firm when it doesn't count and bouncy as hell when it does. Something is also lost with the paddles and EPAS over a stick and hydraulic steering.

It pains me greatly and is a heck of a statement to say that I enjoy driving my Polo GTI more than the new S3. I'm hoping that I can improve the dynamics with some new wheels and coilovers... fingers crossed.

 

[michael-s3]

Whoa... having the 'auto' setting for the steering lurch midway thru a tight turn sounds scary. I've been wondering how the 'auto' settings work for steering and damping, if it varies smoothly from the 'comfort' vs 'dynamic' modes or switches abruptly. Sounds like for steering at least, the switch is abrupt.

 

[Martinbanshee]

I've never noticed the steering switch mode quickly when in auto, seems smooth to me.

 

[tigger8888]

My opinion is coming from 8P S3 and now in S3 Saloon with the 19" and Mag ride it is better then the previous model. But still not great in comfort it too soft and rolls about too much then in dynamic it ****** firm and bouncy on the road. I'm thinking about fitting some H&R sport springs but still not decided will it help or make it worse...

 

[S3quatt]

My opinion is coming from 8P S3 and now in S3 Saloon with the 19" and Mag ride it is better then the previous model. But still not great in comfort it too soft and rolls about too much then in dynamic it ****** firm and bouncy on the road. I'm thinking about fitting some H&R sport springs but still not decided will it help or make it worse...

I doubt if springs alone will help with the rooooolll!
The first thing I would try are the anti roll bars.

Went through all that with the 8L & the ARB's stopped the roll.
Poly flex bushes & uprated strut top bushes sharpened the turn in etc.
Bilstein shocks & Eibach springs helped overall.

In the end, it handled like a gocart at the sacrifice of comfort.

 

[Jassyo06]

I doubt if springs alone will help with the rooooolll!
The first thing I would try are the anti roll bars.

Went through all that with the 8L & the ARB's stopped the roll.
Poly flex bushes & uprated strut top bushes sharpened the turn in etc.
Bilstein shocks & Eibach springs helped overall.

In the end, it handled like a gocart at the sacrifice of comfort.

Its the bouncy part l dont like, surely firmer springs would solve this

 

[Steph67]

Its the bouncy part l dont like, surely firmer springs would solve this

Hi Jassy

Sadly no, have tried the H&R route, but didn't help. Seems to me to be a rebound issue, so coil-overs look like a possible answer. I might start a specific coils thread to see what people have tried to date and what works / doesn't work.

I see you're in Hamilton, good to see some more Lanarkshire folk on here.

 

[naughts4187]

Hi Jassy

Sadly no, have tried the H&R route, but didn't help. Seems to me to be a rebound issue, so coil-overs look like a possible answer. I might start a specific coils thread to see what people have tried to date and what works / doesn't work.

I see you're in Hamilton, good to see some more Lanarkshire folk on here.

Coilovers seem to be few and far between for the S3. Will keep my eyes peeled, and also would be interested in a specific coils thread going forward

 

[veeeight]

The problem with the S3 fidgety bouncy suspension is mainly with dampers, compression and rebound settings.

ARBs are more or less OK, you could change these (along with camber) to help with understeer, but it won't influence the pitchy ride.

 

[Jassyo06]

Coilovers seem to be few and far between for the S3. Will keep my eyes peeled, and also would be interested in a specific coils thread going forward

And amazingly expensive naughts,l have only seen one's listed for the 8P

Hi Jassy

Sadly no, have tried the H&R route, but didn't help. Seems to me to be a rebound issue, so coil-overs look like a possible answer. I might start a specific coils thread to see what people have tried to date and what works / doesn't work.

I see you're in Hamilton, good to see some more Lanarkshire folk on here.

Hamilton man i am lol,a specific thread would helpfull indeed Steph

 

[Steph67]

And amazingly expensive naughts,l have only seen one's listed for the 8P


Hamilton man i am lol,a specific thread would helpfull indeed Steph

I'll start one this evening and see where it goes.

 

[tigger8888]

Hi Steph67

Have you got the H&R springs and which one and what are your thoughts better or worse?

Jassy that's what I was thinking the firm springs will make it less bouncy/ waffling about. Seen quite a few across in the states have done the sport springs with relatively positive reviews...

I'm West Lothian based be good to have a meet up if people are up for it...

Hi Jassy

Sadly no, have tried the H&R route, but didn't help. Seems to me to be a rebound issue, so coil-overs look like a possible answer. I might start a specific coils thread to see what people have tried to date and what works / doesn't work.

I see you're in Hamilton, good to see some more Lanarkshire folk on here.

 

[S3quatt]

Hi Jassy

Sadly no, have tried the H&R route, but didn't help. Seems to me to be a rebound issue, so coil-overs look like a possible answer. I might start a specific coils thread to see what people have tried to date and what works / doesn't work.

^^^^^ This ^^^^

Take a look at this... http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/ess_threes-star-performance-testing.24824/

I know, different car etc, but the principles are the same so you might find it helpful.
My 8L was Jim's old one & I had it set up more or less like Ess's & it drove like it was on rails!

For anyone looking to change the suspension, if you plan on trying to iron out the bounce, start with decent adjustable dampers before looking at springs...

 

[Steph67]

Hi Steph67

Have you got the H&R springs and which one and what are your thoughts better or worse?

Jassy that's what I was thinking the firm springs will make it less bouncy/ waffling about. Seen quite a few across in the states have done the sport springs with relatively positive reviews...

I'm West Lothian based be good to have a meet up if people are up for it...

I've got H&R 28810-1s with 19s. They only firm up the ride slightly, and are certainly good for what they are. There's no real detriment to the ride quality, and if anything the cornering feels slightly better. Whilst they don't do anything to improve the 'bouncyness', I don't think they make it any worse.

If you live in a land of smoother roads than we have over here, the spring kit would be perfect. In fact, you'll find from comment on this site that plenty of people that run H&Rs on the 8V seem to like them a lot. Just my view, but I certainly prefer the car with the H&R springs over stock.

That said, I've got a couple of mods on my car, and more likely to follow, so am looking for a more complete package. I agree absolutely with the other comments on this thread that the issue is related to poor damping. I'm hoping to generate a bit of discussion in the coils thread I'll start later tonight.

I'm in Lanark, so not far away if you or Jassy want to have a look at an S3 with H&Rs

 

[Jassyo06]

I've got H&R 28810-1s with 19s. They only firm up the ride slightly, and are certainly good for what they are. There's no real detriment to the ride quality, and if anything the cornering feels slightly better. Whilst they don't do anything to improve the 'bouncyness', I don't think they make it any worse.

If you live in a land of smoother roads than we have over here, the spring kit would be perfect. In fact, you'll find from comment on this site that plenty of people that run H&Rs on the 8V seem to like them a lot. Just my view, but I certainly prefer the car with the H&R springs over stock.

That said, I've got a couple of mods on my car, and more likely to follow, so am looking for a more complete package. I agree absolutely with the other comments on this thread that the issue is related to poor damping. I'm hoping to generate a bit of discussion in the coils thread I'll start later tonight.

I'm in Lanark, so not far away if you or Jassy want to have a look at an S3 with H&Rs

That would be great. A meet, free every Sunday

 

[Pulp84]

After completing this topic while sitting on my sun lounger in Tenerife this afternoon (not sure I mentioned that already?) - I came to a further few conclusions regarding the OP's question.

After having an extension drive of the Golf R a few months back and the experiences with my own S3 I pondered the below:-

- The Golf R steers better and has better damping. I believe this to be whole heartedly true and I'm sure people who have driven both might agree. Now is this a question of better, higher quality parts in the R or is it down to better calibration? I believe after driving both that fundamentally somewhere in the S3's steering and suspension is a car that could be set up as well as the Golf R. I wouldn't be surprised if the parts are not exactly the same but the difference being calibration is totally different.

- The above led me to further ponder this - the S3 was launched before the Golf R. As I understand it the division of VAG that designs the drivetrain first gets first refusal to launch that model a good 6/12 months before another part of the group. This appears to be the way things happened with the S3/R. Now, I imagine one day an Audi engineer dumped a testing mule with VW and said "it's yours now to play with". The VW engineers after the first drive thought "this isn't set up well". They had a while before the car was launched to market so had time to get it right. I have an article back home with the MK5 Golf GTI technical chief noting how VW specifically set that car up with British buyers in mind (where the UK is a massive market). That was 10/11 years ago now I think. Could it be possible VW took the R mule to the UK to get the thing properly set-up? S3 on the auto-bahn / smooth as ice roads is probably pretty good......but not on the UK's crap roads. The R on the other hands....

- Will spending a small fortune of coilovers sort the issue? Potentially, but I could see that solution still not totally correcting the issue as you still have to contend with the steering calibration which I also think adds to the general sense of the car feeling slightly kamikaze at anything over 80mph on anything other than smooth roads.

General rambilings but thought I would share the above and see if anyone has had similar thoughts or conclusions ?

 

[Blackwhite]

Very interesting post Pulp! Good points came across. ^

I have never driven a Golf R before, so I can't comment on that.
Maybe veeeight will give me a ride in his when he gets it!

 

[veeeight]

I'll just drop this post here, about the known differences between the Golf R and the S3.

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-vs-golf-r-wheel-alignment-handling.238462/#post-2386704

 

[tigger8888]

That would be great. A meet, free every Sunday

Yeh I'm up for that too can do Sunday for catch up and have some banter.

 

[s4mmie_]

Coilovers seem to be few and far between for the S3. Will keep my eyes peeled, and also would be interested in a specific coils thread going forward

I'm looking at something like these Bilsteins ---
http://www.tagmotorsports.com/bilstein-b16-pss10-performance-suspension-system-for-audi-8v-a3-s3

Also interesting in a coilover thread, can't find much else for the 8V other than KW's...

The steering doesn't bother me as much as the suspension. Sure, it's a little washy, but you can compensate for it and dynamic mode helps a bit.
I'd be interested if there's any settings you can tweak through VCDS.

 

[Jon-SST]

http://www.gnjmotorsport.com/search-by-car/audi/s3/s3-8v/coilovers/

Looks like you can get AP's and ST's too. I do however have zero knowledge in this area other than a credit card to pay for them.

I'll be first in the queue for coilovers if I experience the aforementioned pogo sticking when my car arrives as my daily drive involves quite a few bumpy country lanes.

 

[PanamaS3]

Love me S3 but the suspension has too much rebound on it, which makes enthusiastic driving unpredictable on undulating roads. Be warned!

Also, to be picky, mechanical grip levels are less than I'd expect (maybe my expectations are too high. If I based it on the passenger white knuckle index, it's not hanging about). On a good road with ESP nanny mode off, it's at it's best. On a less manicured surface, it is will understeer too much.

I'd rather have stiffer suspension (perhaps I should've got mag ride?) and more cylinders but, for my only car, the S3 is still the best car around. And the cabin is awesome but that's not what you asked!

Yes have to agree with you totally there....its a bit bouncy on undulating surfaces at speed....makes for will it won't it jump out of the lane going around fast corners....want to sort that out on mine but afraid to screw up the ride quality too much....

 

[0B1001001]

Yes have to agree with you totally there....its a bit bouncy on undulating surfaces at speed....makes for will it won't it jump out of the lane going around fast corners....want to sort that out on mine but afraid to screw up the ride quality too much....

I think I may have gone RS3 but no ACC is a deal-breaker for me.

 

[mfl]

Short version - track day with the S3, brakes good, handling decent but let down by the tires, engine ran well, plenty of M3s, 370Z and WRXs there and it wasn’t disgraced.

The long version:

Finally got to take the S3 to track day at Eastern Creeks Brabham layout (Sydney), which is 4.5km long, with a combination of tight corners, steep climbs and one fast corner and a decent straight. the slowest corner was about 60km/h, the fastest 160km/h and about 210/220km/h down the straight.

The bad are the Continentals, they inspired very little confidence, especially on the fast corners - maybe I had the pressures too high ( I used 43psi front/ 38psi rear). The fast sweeper was the one corner, I didn’t push too hard because of the lack of confidence the tyres engendered, a corner you could take at 160km/h, I took at 140km/h

The good were the brakes, a couple of the corners needed heavy brake use and the brakes didn’t fade, we were doing about 7 laps, before having a 7 lap break and the brakes where as good at the end as they were at the beginning.

The S-tronic, behaved itself except towards the end of the day, it wasn’t changing down when asked to ,especially on a tight hairpin, which was really a 2nd gear corner. ( problem solved, by using the kick down once car pointed at the next corner).

Was pleasantly surprised at being able to get the rear to come out (under lift-off) and as long as I didn’t have too fast an entry speed, understeer wasn’t any worse than other cars I have driven on the circuit.

The engine felt very strong in 2nd/3rd gear, but seems to tail off in 4th/5th gear and sounded good, except when it was almost drowned out by the Conti’s squealing.

I did the short version of this track in a GTI - PP and R, but as I had a VW instructor in the passenger seat, we weren’t allowed to push the Golfs as hard as I drove my car, so difficult to really comment which was better.

Petrol consumption was interesting, it’s a 88km round trip to the circuit and as I just got home, the fuel warning light came on, and I had covered 245km …

 

[terapati]

@mfl

Great review, thanks mate. Couple of questions for you;

1) Do you have mag ride? If so, did you try the track performance between comfort and dynamic?
2) Did you try ESC on/off?
3) How was the wear of tyres at the end of the day?
4) How about the oil temp? Did you drive sameway for all 7 laps or did you ever drive for cooling the engine, brakes etc?

Thanks in advance.

 

[lee_fr200]

I had an s3 for a day with mag ride and tbh yes there is a way to drive the car fast like any car, I drove to Whitby from Wakefield near Leeds

The m1 and a64 was very pleasant and relaxed on cruise control came off at Eden camp, everything in dynamic and it felt a little floaty but switching to comfort on the suspension felt a little better, now let me set a scene I travel the Whitby road every week and know the roads and I felt the s3 very compliant I had no understeer issues at all and yes I was pushing it! To me it's how you adapt to a car so on a lot of them roads it's nice to go wide tight wide lift off on turn in kiss the apex and power out! Driving like this you won't have any problems, if you drive into the corner at max speed and keep going expecting the 4wd to sort it out you will be disappointed like you would in most cars, there are always limits to adhesion!!! I suggest for a lot of ppl maybe you should learn how to drive fast rather than buying a car and expecting it to do all the work,