RS3 vs Golf R400?

[GRE57Y]

What are people's thoughts? Could the development of the Golf R400 mean the potential upgrade of the RS3 family to include an "RS3 Plus" model?

My thinking is that a 400ps golf would surely strip a stock RS3 of its super-hatch "crown" should it be released. Audi I would guess may counter this by launching a "Plus" version of the new RS3.

Feel free to post your thoughts and knowledge.

 

[josedebardi]

I'm 99% sure any R400/420 is gonna be a highly strung 4-pot. So it's gonna be a non starter for many who are only considering the RS3 for that engine.
There are a lot who are jumping ship from sub 18 month old S3's - I doubt any of those would bother if not for that engine. There's no replacement for displacement after all!

Audi have also announced plans for approved tunes, so that may end up being a box to tick for a 'plus' version along side the option for early adopters to catch up - this for me is a likely scenario as it both keeps the RS3 ahead of the Golf, and brings extra pocket money from an otherwise disgruntled first round of buyers.

 

[GRE57Y]

I'm jumping from my 18 month old S3.

So would that mean, further down the line, I could get an approved dealership to tune the RS3 I've ordered?

 

[josedebardi]

That's the thinking. So far the only details are we will know more in Oct along side the new R8 launch.

My hope is they announce tunes for the RS3/6/7 and R8 then, and when the new RS4/5 and TTRS come in a couple of years they will have tunes available at launch. We shall see tho!

 

[josedebardi]

I guess I should've asked... If the RS3 has a highly tuned version of your S3 engine, would you have considered it!?

 

[S3DBW]

Audi have also announced plans for approved tunes

Where/when did they announce this?

regards

 

[josedebardi]

In Audi Tuner mag a couple of months ago.

 

[GRE57Y]

I guess I should've asked... If the RS3 has a highly tuned version of your S3 engine, would you have considered it!?

Good question indeed... Depends how it sounded I think. My S3 is a manual and "occasionally" sounds good. The RS3 on the other hand sounds amazing even on start up (I did notice on the spec list, handwritten in the spec book of the demo car I used- Introductory Engine note - or something along those lines).

My only hope is that with increased numbers of the RS3 8V vs the 8P version, that they don't decide to make something to trump it at that model. i.e RS3 Plus

 

[Disco Dal]

I doubt an RS3 Plus will be available. Especially with the rumours that Audi are about to launch manufacturer approved tuning parts and remaps, much like Ford's Mountune options. 400bhp RS3 without ruining your warranty, I expect a few takers

 

[josedebardi]

I doubt an RS3 Plus will be available. Especially with the rumours that Audi are about to launch manufacturer approved tuning parts and remaps, much like Ford's Mountune options. 400bhp RS3 without ruining your warranty, I expect a few takers

Also expect it to be expensive. I'm guessing £3-4k

 

[Disco Dal]

Which would be significantly less than a mark up for any potential RS3 plus? To be perfectly honest If 367bhp and 0-62 in low 4 secs isn't enough for me on UK roads I must be raving mad. Ill take the RS3 with the 5 pot noise over any 4 pot 2lty lump any day of the week.

 

[josedebardi]

I don't know, I think any RS3 Plus model would struggle to demand much more than a 10% mark up for ~10% more power. It's already pretty expensive.

 

[Disco Dal]

I would think the plus model would have carbon ceramics, carbon pack (interior and exterior) and buckets as standard? and go for 10k more? It wouldn't simply be just a power upgrade. Merc Black series type mark up.

 

[Yorrick]

I can't see a 5 door hatch going for 50k basic plus another 10k of options. It would have to look a lot more special - proper body kit, maybe a 3 door with serious arches and dished wheels. That could work. They could even give it a special name to commemorate all their le Mans wins, like an 'RS3 Le Mans Porsche'. Oh, wait, that didn't work...

 

[josedebardi]

I would think the plus model would have carbon ceramics, carbon pack (interior and exterior) and buckets as standard? and go for 10k more? It wouldn't simply be just a power upgrade. Merc Black series type mark up.

Looking at history - 'Plus' models had only an engine remap and maybe something like the dynamic pack plus as standard. Maybe buckets, and then the black pack and black wheels.

 

[Denty]

According to my source who is quite high up at a particulary prestige Audi dealership a 3 door is a very real possibility in the not so distant future... Oh yes! still won't be a manual option tho...

 

[Bristle Hound]

@veeeight - Thoughts on Op's question?

 

[veeeight]

The R400 and the TT420 were/are 4-cyl developments.

I don't think the 2.5 has much more to give, AND comply with future EU emissions.


Quite frankly, if the R400 handles well, goes round corners well, that will be the car for me. Or the facelift A45 AMG.

The RS3 engine does sounds very nice, but I'm not paying £47k for what is essentially an A3.

 

[CraigI]

If the Golf looks like the concept it will outsell the RS3 massively.
If VW keep ahead of the game with handling like they seem to have done in the RvS3 stakes, then it will also drive better than the RS3.
They only potential downside will be the interior quality, but if they get a decent seating position and some buckets, then it would take that side of the debate for me too.

Certainly worth keeping an eye on.

 

[NormantheDog]

Latest version has it looking like the R and not the look of the concept:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/golf/91531/vw-golf-r400-super-hatch-set-for-2016-release

 

[veeeight]

If VW keep ahead of the game with handling like they seem to have done in the RvS3 stakes, then it will also drive better than the RS3.

That won't be hard


Autocar, on the RS3:

"On an empty B-road, the car is more Quattro GmbH mission statement than hatchback: indelicate, immodest and catapult quick. From an emphatically dependable front end, to the squat, flat-bodied cling mid-corner, to the kind of decisive traction and stability that makes four-wheel drive seem not just necessary but enormously desirable, the RS3 is a fully paid-up A-to-B monster.

Its capabilities are so cornfield wide, in fact, that your own aptitude at the wheel feels like a less crucial commodity. The RS3 gives more reward for being brave than for being smooth and precise.

Therein, of course, lies the familiar rub: the RS3 is a driver’s car that has little time for the delicacy and nuance on which a keen driver thrives. This is revealed quickly enough on a track, where, despite Audi’s protestations, the latest version of the quattro system fails to deliver on the dynamic promise of a fully empowered rear axle.

Efforts to involve it at an apex or even unseat it completely are largely for nought. Instead, via the usual over-assisted steering wheel murk, you mostly 
just wait for the front tyres to find their purchase and haul the car through the meat of any given corner before feeding the power back in. It’s route-one stuff."

 

[u3sport]

A Class mid-life facelift will be presented in a few months (frankfurt-2015 in september) and is supposed to boost A45 engine to 380HP, improve gearshift, and upgrade tech with Apple CarPlay and Android Auto.

A3 mid-life facelift is coming soon, probably early 2016 because current A3/S3/RS3 based on 8V 2012 model is technologically outdated compared with 2016 cars (MIB-II is ready).

In that mid-life facelift, RS3 could share TT RS 2016 new 2.5T 380hp engine? should be possible.

 

[Snake Pliskin]

If that is how the final Golf R400 will look then that is a big shame.

Nothing like the prototype at all !

I am interested to see the revised Merc A45 AMG though and will test that against the RS3.

 

[Dave Hedgehog]

I don't think the 2.5 has much more to give, AND comply with future EU emissions.

That sounds like Audi marketing bull pat to me, they can over tune a 4 pot to 400bhp and get a 600bhp NA V10 to pass but a 5 pot which is still detuned for marketing reasons can't pass /facepalm

 

[Dave Hedgehog]

I am interested to see the revised Merc A45 AMG though and will test that against the RS3.

They will need to enhance the a45 a lot because I found it utterly boring to drive, very competent but soulless like a playstation game

 

[Yorrick]

I went to test drive an A45 and a CLA45 but they were horrible and plasticky and there wasn't enough headroom in either so I drank the free coffee and left.

 

[Scotty2011]

Was the coffee at least any good?

 

[Yorrick]

Wasn't bad actually. Better than Audi's.

 

[Snake Pliskin]

The RS3 is my lead car by a mile .... but want to see the Merc just to satisfy myself that had a look at a viable alternative - fully expect the RS3 to come out head & shoulders above and it's a 5 cylinder vs 4 for starters and after 3 Audi's I am very happy with the brand.

 

[kayemill]

I tried the A45 and found it very cramped and really hard to see out the back window. I also didn't like the gearbox. The screen on the dash was not very nice either. I was set on the A45 before I bought my 8V S3.

Left the Merc garage and went straight to Audi. For that reason an A45 facelift isn't even a consideration for me no matter the performance.

 

[billyali86]

I took the cla45 out on a 40 min test drive, came away dissapointed. It would have been my next logical step after the TT RS as it seems like theres no confirmed plans of an rs3 saloon. The car did not seem as quick as people were reporting and the sound wasnt as great as people were stating also. Yes there were nice crackles on upshift but the rest of the sound was a bit "meh". It is a 4 cylinder engine after all. I put down the feeling of it being slow down to 2 things.

1. Test drive during the day with traffic so could not stretch its legs fully
2. I was coming from a modded TT RS which was a bit of a rocketship.

Nonetheless, I decided to give the CLA45 another chance as I loved the styling, the dealer gave me the shooting break version for an overnight test drive. Handling wise it is very good, very darty! However the feeling of it being slow was still there even when wrung out. It was confirmed later that night when a friend brought his DSG golf R out for a few runs on a private road. The Golf only had 600 miles or so on it, the cla could not put any distance on it, maybe a car length up to 160? I understand the CLA is heavier than the a45 and the shooting break even more so....but where is that extra 60bhp going? Before we went out in both cars my friend drove the cla45, his words simply were " is that it?!" when planting his foot in the CLA45.

In the end I had to make a decision, s3 saloon, wait for a possible rs3 saloon, or order the rs3 sportback. I had to act fast as I have a kid on the way and could not keep waiting around for something that may never turn up.

s3 saloon - I LOVE the look of the s3 saloon, proportions are probably the best I have seen on any road car, drove another friends mapped golf r (APR mapped to 380bhp) and it hauled ***! The would be, map, spacers and lowering and I would be happy. But what if an rs3 pulled up next to me at the lights???!!!

RS3 saloon - would be THE PERFECT car for me, that engine with the saloon body.....yes please! Will it ever turn up?

RS3 sportback - In the end the 5 cylinder engine was calling me to return . I saw an rs3 sportback at geneva and quite liked it. Now having seen the rs3 which nicer spec (wheels colour etc) in person I am happy with my choice I made. However my first choice would have been an rs3 saloon. Maybe I will change in a couple of years if it does turn up....

 

[billyali86]

Facelift A45 just been leaked

http://www.worldcarfans.com/115061895425/possible-mercedes-benz-a45-amg-official-image-emerges

 

[SilureMark]

What are people's thoughts? Could the development of the Golf R400 mean the potential upgrade of the RS3 family to include an "RS3 Plus" model?

My thinking is that a 400ps golf would surely strip a stock RS3 of its super-hatch "crown" should it be released. Audi I would guess may counter this by launching a "Plus" version of the new RS3.

Feel free to post your thoughts and knowledge.

I've owned countless VW's and they've all been good cars, but the ownership experience? I found VW to be pretty hopeless at almost everything from a customer care perspective. Then there's the look of the current golf, the basic shape doesn't look right to me. It look almost ungainly, even in R trim. The interior of the latest golf leaves a lot to be desired as well. Then of course, it's a VW not an Audi. May not matter to some people, but it does to a lot. I don't care if it had 450bhp, I'd still not buy one over an RS3.

 

[u3sport]

A45 facelift with 381PS and A45S version with 400PS, coming in 3 months...

400PS should be a little faster than RS3.

 

[Foxtrot_Oscar]

4 pot turbo engines are getting more powerful and achieving some pretty stunning bhp figures and torque. But for me where the RS3 wins out and won me over, is with the character and sound of the 5pot engine. There is no need to pump in sound effects to try and enhance the noise, burble or character. It was the first thing to stick out getting back into my S3. And to be honest once you get to 300 bhp it's all diminishing returns and there is a limit to how much use that is on public roads, where 99.9% of these cars will be used.

 

[josedebardi]

Not forgetting that a 400bhp 4-pot is gonna be go go go go TURBO GO GO GO! There's no getting away from the characteristics, and while it's not all in one big lump like the 80's madness it's still a definite peak rather than power delivered throughout the band like a larger displacement gives.

 

[Disco Dal]

If you were always worried about having the most powerful and kept waiting for the "next big thing" you would never buy anything. 5cylinder noise compared to 4 cyclinder is a no brainer to me. Just back from Le Mans in my mates CLA45, lovely looking car, sounds ok on up shifts but on hard acceleration it doesn't feel quick or sound that special. RS3 no contest.

 

[billyali86]

Exactly how I felt when I drove it, power delivery did not seem as urgent as the TT RS, and after all the raving about the sound of the A/CLA45 I was quite underwhelmed. The best was to describe the power delivery is flat

 

[billyali86]

I wouldn't say it was Laggy Jose, I think its more to do with the throttle response in the car, alot of people with the a45/cla45 have fitted pedal boxes to counteract the slow throttle respone

 

[Snake Pliskin]

I think the Audi's ace card is the five pot engine and supporting soundtrack, which a four pot will never match. The prospect of owning that engine, the sound and performance dies excite me.

I have not driven an A45 AMG But I did sit in a regular A Class a couple of years ago when considering the A45 pre-release. I wasn't taken, immediately drove half a mile down the road to my Audi dealer and the S5 deal was done.

Two years later, the RS3 looks like it could be both my ideal car and first RS !

But as I never got to see or test an A45 last time, I feel compelled to do it this time round, even if just out of interest.

The Audi is the car I am focussed on and speccing up etc so that says it all.

As for the Golf, as it's just a concept still and some way off I can't get too excited about it - plus I'm sure I'd still pick the Audi over it anyway.