Remote Key Fob Grabbing?

Inertiauk

Registered User
I'm looking to have the security beefed up in my S3 with a new multi layer system (not disclosing further than that). However I don't want to have a separate fob for it, I want to use my OEM key. Which is doable by using the can bus to integrate the alarm.

My local installer tells me there is a vulnerability if I do that because the codes can be read and cloned on the OEM fob.

When my car was last 'broken into' I'm pretty sure they used a lock pick (HU66) and then just ignored the us less quiet factory alarm.

I've googled and researched as best I can and have read they have a very secure rolling code system where old codes used get 'burned' and can't be re used even if they are grabbed.
The vulnerabilities are on the keyless entry ones where they are always transmitting and you don't even need to press the button to unlock your car. So I really don't think mine is vulnerable to this ?

I would much rather have an OEM fob than an aftermarket seperate from my key.

Anyone got any opinions on this ? Or information ? What would you do ?
 

SootySport

Registered User
You have to be really unlucky to have your key cloned by a scanner. Using the remote close to the car cuts down the chances of scanning. I've never heard or known anybody that has had their car stolen this way.
I know it is possible, seen it on the TV but anyone actually scanning keys in real life in a public car park -------------------not sure it happens.
 

Jps3290

Registered User
To be honest with you and from my experience being one of the many who attend reported crimes of cars being stolen etc. Any professional career criminal will be able to take your car and will have done their research on what they want and how they are going to get it well before taking it. If its an exotic car they usually just quickly uplift the vehicle and its gone in under a minute. Forget all your security devices in that case. Once its away and they are confident its not being tracked its usually on a container and gone, or stripped.

Just a run of the mill car, personally I wouldn't bother as them criminals usually only want it as a pool car to do other crimes in before torching it or crashing it a pursuit. They go for much easier cars to nick or usually just break into your house first to get your keys.

Like most cars, their are ways around everything if you have the right kit. new Fords are ridiculously easy to literally get into and drive away with about £600's worth of equipment and leaves no damage what so ever. Ask Ford they will say no chance its immobilised etc... hmm wrong !! I'll not say anymore other than that.
 

RAF_S7

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
I'm looking to have the security beefed up in my S3 with a new multi layer system (not disclosing further than that). However I don't want to have a separate fob for it, I want to use my OEM key. Which is doable by using the can bus to integrate the alarm.

My local installer tells me there is a vulnerability if I do that because the codes can be read and cloned on the OEM fob.

When my car was last 'broken into' I'm pretty sure they used a lock pick (HU66) and then just ignored the us less quiet factory alarm.

I've googled and researched as best I can and have read they have a very secure rolling code system where old codes used get 'burned' and can't be re used even if they are grabbed.
The vulnerabilities are on the keyless entry ones where they are always transmitting and you don't even need to press the button to unlock your car. So I really don't think mine is vulnerable to this ?

I would much rather have an OEM fob than an aftermarket seperate from my key.

Anyone got any opinions on this ? Or information ? What would you do ?

If you read through the relevant posts on the forum, you will find that the majority of thefts, especially S3's, occur at home off the driveway, usually when the owner is in bed, and the mode of theft is to break into the house and steal the keys. So if you want a multi-layered security system, built around your existing OEM fob, Id say put your money into an alternative solution, and one that absolutely DOES include an additional tag.

An opportunist thief is unlikely to steal your car from the local Tesco's car park - unless you are really unlucky - they know there is a reasonable level of security built in straight from the factory (its not perfect, it could be better etc. But its better than nothing) They may steal from it - but thats another matter all together.

I would be more inclined to do something like this:

1. Visible deterrent - Use a Diskloc whenever you park up.
2. Security solution that includes a monitored tracker, using a second separate fob (or card) that you have about your person when driving the car to enable/disable monitoring.
3. A back-up GPS tracker with SIM card - you can get these for under £40 on eBay.
4. Home security to prevent break-in and key theft. Front & back door security. Driveway PIR light. HD Camera watching your driveway - or parking spot if possible
5. Don't leave your car key in plain sight - but don't hide it either. Better they find the key downstairs, than come up stairs and threaten family to hand over the key.

Thats what I would do :racer:
 

Jps3290

Registered User
Agree with above. I have a tracker on my car that cost me £12. Is hard wired and hidden and used my Free Talktalk Sim card so costs me nothing.

At home I also have PIR lightso on driveway and 2 HD camera's covering cars with motion sensor sending alerts to my phone during set periods of time.
Still won't stop them but might make them move on to the neighbors car as an easier target ;)
 

Inertiauk

Registered User
Thanks for the input.

Although the question was more about the code grabbing than other aspects. I'm fully aware the most likely form of theft is with the keys and my solution protects against that fully.

The only thing vulnerable if someone could grab my code from my oem key is the parts on the car RNSE, mirrors etc. Which could be then taken without my knowledge. The whole car won't be taken even with the keys or a cloned key unless it's put onto a flatbed or towed. And even then I have some protection against this.

So the only question really is the code grabbing one. Is an OEM fob vulnerable to having its codes grabbed and then later re used to open the car ? Or is my isntaller talking nonsense ?
 

Jps3290

Registered User
Im pretty sure from about 2004 onwards Audi use rolling codes so code changes each time meaning if they grabbed the code when you unlocked the car it won't work for them as the car will expect a different code the next time.

However their are other just as easy ways for them to get into the car. Seriously, I wouldn't worry about it if its just your Audio stuff etc. If they want it, they WILL get it with or without a grabbing the key code.
 

Inertiauk

Registered User
They will probably still just pick the lock which is what I think has happened before. and they will ignore the alarm and just crack on. And then they WILL get their head stamped on.

However if they did manage to clone the fob I might not get a head stamping opportunity. Which means I should go with the none oem fob.

I thought about de locking completely but i figure at least if they just pick the lock no damage is being done.

Thanks for the input on the rolling codes confirming what I thought.
 

RAF_S7

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
There has been a recent spate of key code blockers being used in a number of the service stations on the M4 between Swindon and London. Driver uses his remote, thinks he's locked the car and walks away. In actual fact the key code blocker has prevented the doors being locked, thieves then rob the car.

News story here

I'm not aware of any one "catching" a code, then using it to steal the car. Much easier to clone a key via OBD II port access, where the car as a keyless start option.
 

Inertiauk

Registered User
Thanks.

If I've got alarm beep enabled and I make sure I hear it when I lock my car does this thworte the blockers ?

I presume if the signal is blocked and the car doesn't lock it can't beep / flash the indicators etc. ?
 

RAF_S7

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
Thanks.

If I've got alarm beep enabled and I make sure I hear it when I lock my car does this thworte the blockers ?

I presume if the signal is blocked and the car doesn't lock it can't beep / flash the indicators etc. ?

Correct :racer:
 

@udi A3

Well-Known Member
VCDS Map User
I love these threads. Being an auto locksmith I can tell you a lot more facts than news scares. I can disperse a good few myths too. Obviously key snatching will warrant your secondary device useless.

I'm currently installing ghost immobilisers by autowatch. There is no fob. No relays. No wire cuts. The tiny device accepts a pin code from canbus cockpit controls to enable the car to start. It's virtually untraceable.

To take your s3 upto approx 2013 model year I'd pick lock open then cut a key. Having my laptop set up ready I would then open the car and disable the alarm by obd. Code the key. Start the car.

I can assure you an rs4/5/6 with push in the dash type keys are far easier to take this way than an s3. Average time for me on an s3 lost key situation is approx 20 to 30 mins. Dash pod keys on the a4/5/6 etc average 3 mins.

I know there are thieves using a compact version of my tools. I've been approached by them for keys as they have to go through shady suppliers. I know they use the same method as I do to make keys to take cars. Unfortunately I can't see any way it'll ever stop until my trade is regulated.

Imo ghost is a very good solution. That's why I was keen to install it. I have a vw t5 now and do not want it going walkies if my keys are snatched!
 

THQuattro

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VCDS Map User
Gold Supporter
Hi mate, whats the cost of the ghost system.
 

Inertiauk

Registered User
I was going to keep hush tbh but meh.....

Ghost is one of the parts of my security system. I do want to protect it from theft of RNSE etc too though not just theft of the whole car, so mobile notifications on alarm activation and on legitimate unlock of the car with the key is also going to happen. Slight annoyance that my phone beeps every time I use my car. But I will get used to that I think.
 

Inertiauk

Registered User

Inertiauk

Registered User
Hi mate, whats the cost of the ghost system.
I would think very hard before having a keyless car with push start. Horribly insecure! I'm not surprised at all that an auto locksmith can take one in 3 minutes. And it's not hard for thieves to train as auto locksmiths and get the sane equipment.
 

dg-1984

Registered User
Agree with above. I have a tracker on my car that cost me £12. Is hard wired and hidden and used my Free Talktalk Sim card so costs me nothing.

What tracker did you get and also what SIM card? I had this idea of fit a tracker and would be good to know.
Does the tracker use data?
 

RPB

Registered User
I love these threads. Being an auto locksmith I can tell you a lot more facts than news scares. I can disperse a good few myths too. Obviously key snatching will warrant your secondary device useless.

I'm currently installing ghost immobilisers by autowatch. There is no fob. No relays. No wire cuts. The tiny device accepts a pin code from canbus cockpit controls to enable the car to start. It's virtually untraceable.

To take your s3 upto approx 2013 model year I'd pick lock open then cut a key. Having my laptop set up ready I would then open the car and disable the alarm by obd. Code the key. Start the car.

I can assure you an rs4/5/6 with push in the dash type keys are far easier to take this way than an s3. Average time for me on an s3 lost key situation is approx 20 to 30 mins. Dash pod keys on the a4/5/6 etc average 3 mins.

I know there are thieves using a compact version of my tools. I've been approached by them for keys as they have to go through shady suppliers. I know they use the same method as I do to make keys to take cars. Unfortunately I can't see any way it'll ever stop until my trade is regulated.

Imo ghost is a very good solution. That's why I was keen to install it. I have a vw t5 now and do not want it going walkies if my keys are snatched!

Hence using OBD Portector.
 

@udi A3

Well-Known Member
VCDS Map User
Obd protector is easy to bypass. I could just clip onto wires in the door shut and bypass it. With ghost that's not possible
Ghost retails at £399.
 

RAF_S7

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
Obd protector is easy to bypass. I could just clip onto wires in the door shut and bypass it.

Easy to bypass?

What do you base that statement on?
 

Inertiauk

Registered User
Easy to bypass?

What do you base that statement on?


Hes right, you just need canbus wires, and they run all over the car!
 

@udi A3

Well-Known Member
VCDS Map User
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