Question on camshaft/intake manifold gains.

[Shoomakan]

Hey boys and girls,

I wanted to take the opinion of a mod (or two!) I have my eye on.

My car currently has 550cc injectors, 4 bar fpr, relentless V4, K04 hybrid (beachbuggy), 3" downpipe, lwfw, walbro 255lb, FMIC, SCAT rods, and any other supporting mods I think the 1.8T needs to make power. Car is getting a 3" exhaust this week and a methanol kit next month.

First up is the intake cam from IE:

http://www.performancebyie.com/integrated-engineering-1-8t-20v-street-intake-camshaft

Would my setup benefit from this camshaft? My reasoning is that it doesn't seem too aggressive, and would work with a 7300rpm redline. Would I see good gains from this? Haven't been able to find a conclusive thread about my issue.

Second up is the 034 Motorsport transverse intake manifold:

https://store.034motorsport.com/034...take-manifold-transverse-1-8t-small-port.html

I know it's not as big and as good as the SEM manifold and a few others, but I really don't want to build a super high revving 1.8T, which is why I don't feel like I need the extra volume. It seems to be a noticeable improvement over stock.

The reason I like both of these mods is because it seems they'll each make a noticeable difference separately, and again, it seems like they'd work with a not-crazy redline.

Another approach I'm thinking about is installing an LSD or two on the car. I participate in amateur rallies in the summer and think it would benefit greatly from more traction (and fun!) if I install them. I have placed an order with a local dealer for ST coilovers (KW sub brand) as well.

I'd love some input on LSDs for our cars, and would love educated opinions on the mods I've listed above.

Cheers and thank you.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Bills tested cams on a K04 hybrid... no gains... LSD would be of use in the gearbox, HPA controller for the haldex too...

<tuffty/>

 

[Broken Byzan]

Inlet only may work, mine certainly shifts everything to the right, but i have a larger turbo than you but have not had it on rollers yet due to it being 4wd.

However, std cams seem to have a broad power band and no flow restriction till we are at around 450BHP. I am tempted to put my OEM inlet back in for a comparison shortly.

 

[Shoomakan]

Inlet only may work, mine certainly shifts everything to the right, but i have a larger turbo than you but have not had it on rollers yet due to it being 4wd.

However, std cams seem to have a broad power band and no flow restriction till we are at around 450BHP. I am tempted to put my OEM inlet back in for a comparison shortly.

I was referring to the intake manifold, not the inlet pipe. I have that installed already. Thanks for info on standard cams, and thanks tuffty for your input as well.

Even if I ever upgrade the turbo, I wouldn't want more than 450 horsepower at the motor. Too much lag and money for me at that point.

 

[Broken Byzan]

i was referring to the inlet CAM, manifold will have little or no affect at your current power level

 

[<tuffty/>]

Lag! .... Lol

<tuffty/>

 

[Miguel_S#]

Try a n/a camshaft You will have same power with less boost.
Exhaust camshaft will give less egt

 

[<tuffty/>]

Lag is subjective... I'll leave you with this graph of my GT35 vs a std S3

<tuffty/>

 

[rallye_turbo]

I also have one of these manifolds. It is the small port one. Very nicely made and I have to port match as I have a ported and flowed cylinder head. The results from 034 suggest good gains from a OEM setup though, so imagine that it would offer some benefit. As Bill says, it's all about the flow!
I have not fitted mine yet - will do in new year. I have almost the same set up as you.
Paul

 

[rallye_turbo]

Nice - I had no idea lower end of rpm could match OEM!

Lag is subjective... I'll leave you with this graph of my GT35 vs a std S3

<tuffty/>

 

[<tuffty/>]

Nice - I had no idea lower end of rpm could match OEM!

Thats because everyone looks at boost plots and spool etc... if the engine and supporting hardware is done right you can still produce low down power and torque off bigger turbo setups... better breathing, bigger turbo equals more air for the same amount of effort... even at zero vac to 0.5bar just before everything starts to get lively there is power...

Obviously it will still feel 'laggy' if you are in the wrong gear at the wrong time but big turbo setups will always feel different to spooly smaller turbos until you are on power of course then its good different...

Most people that wobble on about lag have either never driven a properly setup big turbo car or built a properly setup big turbo car...

<tuffty/>

 

[rallye_turbo]

Nice reply - thanks for sharing.

 

[Shoomakan]

Thats because everyone looks at boost plots and spool etc... if the engine and supporting hardware is done right you can still produce low down power and torque off bigger turbo setups... better breathing, bigger turbo equals more air for the same amount of effort... even at zero vac to 0.5bar just before everything starts to get lively there is power...

Obviously it will still feel 'laggy' if you are in the wrong gear at the wrong time but big turbo setups will always feel different to spooly smaller turbos until you are on power of course then its good different...

Most people that wobble on about lag have either never driven a properly setup big turbo car or built a properly setup big turbo car...

<tuffty/>

What I meant by "laggy" twofold: the inherent laggy throttle response compared to a sporty NA engine, and the higher RPM required for the bigger turbo to hit the same peak power RELATIVE to the small one.

That plot is a very informative one, and I thank you for sharing it. Although IIRC it's slightly unfair as I believe your car has been stroked, and that plot compares your stroked and well tuned GT35 setup vs a K04 on stock displacement, no? That would skew the numbers a bit in your favor. If you think it doesn't, can you please explain why?

 

[badger5]

What I meant by "laggy" twofold: the inherent laggy throttle response compared to a sporty NA engine, and the higher RPM required for the bigger turbo to hit the same peak power RELATIVE to the small one.

That plot is a very informative one, and I thank you for sharing it. Although IIRC it's slightly unfair as I believe your car has been stroked, and that plot compares your stroked and well tuned GT35 setup vs a K04 on stock displacement, no? That would skew the numbers a bit in your favor. If you think it doesn't, can you please explain why?

what on earth are you trying to prove/debate here?
laggy throttle response.. then comparing a "sporty NA" engine to big turbo one..

Sporty NA power output and torque vs a big turbo unit... ?? wtf? Hardly a comparison worthy of discussion.

Stroker "laggy" GT35 vs a Stock k04.. Torque for torque... the actual "shove" is the relative comparison tufftys making.. Unless you have been in one such as his you will not understand the performance and actual drive of the thing.

"unfair" is a BS statement... Its a comparison /END

 

[<tuffty/>]

What I meant by "laggy" twofold: the inherent laggy throttle response compared to a sporty NA engine, and the higher RPM required for the bigger turbo to hit the same peak power RELATIVE to the small one.

That plot is a very informative one, and I thank you for sharing it. Although IIRC it's slightly unfair as I believe your car has been stroked, and that plot compares your stroked and well tuned GT35 setup vs a K04 on stock displacement, no? That would skew the numbers a bit in your favor. If you think it doesn't, can you please explain why?

While my engine is a stroker it is still a 20v engine.. you could argue its unfair to compare a 1.8 to a 2.0 but that is not the point of this... its to suggest that a 20v with a big turbo is not really 'laggy'...

Most people associate lag with boost onset and don't take into consideration actual power/torque... most see plots that don't have power until beyond 5k rpm... this is not just 20v setups but others too...

Big turbo on small displacement will always be a compromise but if you build it right,use the right combo of parts you can overcome the 'lag' that everyone gets hung up about...

You can read into this however you want... point of the graph is to show that a 20v with a big turbo doesn't have to be a lag monster

<tuffty/>

 

[badger5]

I could post one up of a bogo AUM GT3071 setup... same torque level & onset to 5krpm as tufftys.. from a "std engine" (just rodded) - smallport.. aum engine.
quite surprising.. but in terms of whatever it is you 'shoomakan' are digging for... I have no clue.

want NA "sporty" Vtec yo.... You can have the best (lol) of both worlds.. ****** all torque, and lag until vtech comes in.. Hmmm. ok then.

 

[Shoomakan]

what on earth are you trying to prove/debate here?
laggy throttle response.. then comparing a "sporty NA" engine to big turbo one..

Sporty NA power output and torque vs a big turbo unit... ?? wtf? Hardly a comparison worthy of discussion.

Stroker "laggy" GT35 vs a Stock k04.. Torque for torque... the actual "shove" is the relative comparison tufftys making.. Unless you have been in one such as his you will not understand the performance and actual drive of the thing.

"unfair" is a BS statement... Its a comparison /END

Chill, mang.

While my engine is a stroker it is still a 20v engine.. you could argue its unfair to compare a 1.8 to a 2.0 but that is not the point of this... its to suggest that a 20v with a big turbo is not really 'laggy'...

Most people associate lag with boost onset and don't take into consideration actual power/torque... most see plots that don't have power until beyond 5k rpm... this is not just 20v setups but others too...

Big turbo on small displacement will always be a compromise but if you build it right,use the right combo of parts you can overcome the 'lag' that everyone gets hung up about...

You can read into this however you want... point of the graph is to show that a 20v with a big turbo doesn't have to be a lag monster

<tuffty/>

I thanked you for your graph and told you how informative it was. I didn't disagree, I merely stated that your setup on a 1.8 would probably not make the same numbers at the same RPM as a stroked 20V motor. I'm actually quite happy that your specific setup is not a compromise compared to a K04 setup, and is honestly one of the only setups (if not the only, but I haven't been here long) setup to do so.

I could post one up of a bogo AUM GT3071 setup... same torque level & onset to 5krpm as tufftys.. from a "std engine" (just rodded) - smallport.. aum engine.
quite surprising.. but in terms of whatever it is you 'shoomakan' are digging for... I have no clue.

want NA "sporty" Vtec yo.... You can have the best (lol) of both worlds.. ****** all torque, and lag until vtech comes in.. Hmmm. ok then.

Nah, man. I tried Vtec. Had a nicely set up CRX with a B16 in it. The torquelessness doesn't bother you as much as it weighs less than 900kg, but it was far from what I'd prefer to have.

Glad to see a well set up GT30 is equally effective. Truth be told, I'm a power whore and don't think anything I do to make good power out of a 1.8T is cost effective. Not saying I wouldn't do it, just saying there are better and easier ways to make power than with an S3.

Cheers for your input, guys. I have learned and still want to learn much from you, and I'd appreciate answering me in the same tones as I ask/state from you. No need to be offensive/aggressive when a newbie to the 1.8T scene as myself makes a mistake or a stupid claim. This is the first 4 cylinder engine and turbo engine I've ever owned, and this is all still very new to me.

 

[superkarl]

I also don't like the term lag, as it's abit ambiguous.

Response - regardless of rpm, from touching the throttle and the power actually kicking is the same if not better, stock vs BT

Boost/power threshold - is a more appropriate term for what most people say lag. This is where the power is in the rev range. To give context, 50mph, 5th or 6th gear, it's a lot easier to make use of a ko4 power band than it is a gt35, in the sense that the torque is there. Whereas to make the most of a gt35, the most of that setup is at least 1000rpm higher, therefore you gotta change down one or even two cogs.

I've experienced this in mine when I've wanted to thrash it, the power band is a bit further to the right, it took a while to get used to this but with the right gear changes to do what I want it to do and it's no laggier, no less responsive. It just requires a slightly different driving style.

 

[Shoomakan]

I also don't like the term lag, as it's abit ambiguous.

Response - regardless of rpm, from touching the throttle and the power actually kicking is the same if not better, stock vs BT

Boost/power threshold - is a more appropriate term for what most people say lag. This is where the power is in the rev range. To give context, 50mph, 5th or 6th gear, it's a lot easier to make use of a ko4 power band than it is a gt35, in the sense that the torque is there. Whereas to make the most of a gt35, the most of that setup is at least 1000rpm higher, therefore you gotta change down one or even two cogs.

I've experienced this in mine when I've wanted to thrash it, the power band is a bit further to the right, it took a while to get used to this but with the right gear changes to do what I want it to do and it's no laggier, no less responsive. It just requires a slightly different driving style.

I'm never saying the word "lag" again. Ever.

 

[badger5]

Chill, mang.



I thanked you for your graph and told you how informative it was. I didn't disagree, I merely stated that your setup on a 1.8 would probably not make the same numbers at the same RPM as a stroked 20V motor. I'm actually quite happy that your specific setup is not a compromise compared to a K04 setup, and is honestly one of the only setups (if not the only, but I haven't been here long) setup to do so.



Nah, man. I tried Vtec. Had a nicely set up CRX with a B16 in it. The torquelessness doesn't bother you as much as it weighs less than 900kg, but it was far from what I'd prefer to have.

Glad to see a well set up GT30 is equally effective. Truth be told, I'm a power whore and don't think anything I do to make good power out of a 1.8T is cost effective. Not saying I wouldn't do it, just saying there are better and easier ways to make power than with an S3.

Cheers for your input, guys. I have learned and still want to learn much from you, and I'd appreciate answering me in the same tones as I ask/state from you. No need to be offensive/aggressive when a newbie to the 1.8T scene as myself makes a mistake or a stupid claim. This is the first 4 cylinder engine and turbo engine I've ever owned, and this is all still very new to me.

perhaps much is being lost in a language barrier..

your posts and replies to said are int he SAME frame of tone...... as YOU

Remembering this is an AUDI Forum.. and an 8L one... and S3's are predominant and whats being compared here.. I find your comments funny..

Truth be told, I'm a power whore and don't think anything I do to make good power out of a 1.8T is cost effective. Not saying I wouldn't do it, just saying there are better and easier ways to make power than with an S3.

 

[snowy]

Another approach I'm thinking about is installing an LSD or two on the car. I participate in amateur rallies in the summer and think it would benefit greatly from more traction (and fun!) if I install them. I have placed an order with a local dealer for ST coilovers (KW sub brand) as well.

I'd love some input on LSDs for our cars, and would love educated opinions on the mods I've listed above.

Cheers and thank you.

For any rally use go straight to plate diff in the gearbox. SQS do decent plates, soft ramped for rally uses
Torsens (eg peloquin/quaife/wavetrac) are vastly better than open, but have their limitations

Torsen is your only choice for rear axle - eg Peloquin

With ref the ST suspension - not sure how the rear springs on the coilover kits work, but if anything like this

If you're rallying, even amateur aren't you subject to fia regs regarding power ?

 

[Shoomakan]

For any rally use go straight to plate diff in the gearbox. SQS do decent plates, soft ramped for rally uses
Torsens (eg peloquin/quaife/wavetrac) are vastly better than open, but have their limitations

Torsen is your only choice for rear axle - eg Peloquin

With ref the ST suspension - not sure how the rear springs on the coilover kits work, but if anything like this

If you're rallying, even amateur aren't you subject to fia regs regarding power ?

No rules regarding power, no checks regarding power. Cars are categorized very simply as there isn't usually much traffic/variety. Gutted and/or motor swap means you're in the "prototype" class. Otherwise you're in the regular class. My car can be full fat with 600 horsepower without a motor swap and I qualify to run against a stock S3, for example. But if I removed the interior, regardless of output, I'm in the "proto" class.

It's a 3rd world country with 3rd world regulations, I'm the first to admit. Still, it's tons of fun. Nothing like taking a corner at 70kph on smooth asphalt on a 1 lane road with a sheer drop on the other side.

Here's a vid of me doing one such event in my old E34, if you're interested.

 

[Shoomakan]

perhaps much is being lost in a language barrier..

Remembering this is an AUDI Forum.. and an 8L one... and S3's are predominant and whats being compared here.. I find your comments funny..

It very well may be. English isn't my first language.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[antwan64og]

If you're rallying Reliability and Handling will get you further than power.

For reliabilty you'll probably want a baffled sump at the least.

Massive Power doesn't matter so much, the mk4 Golf amateur rally cars detune theirs to like 350hp, anymore than that and they find they just spin the tyres or are airborne.

 

[snowy]

It's a 3rd world country with 3rd world regulations, I'm the first to admit. Still, it's tons of fun. Nothing like taking a corner at 70kph on smooth asphalt on a 1 lane road with a sheer drop on the other side.

Awesome rules
UK rules suck
Your mountain roads are better than ours too, little bit more sunshine ..
The terrain you have for the Arsoun and the Deir El Qamar is world class
Rallying in the uk has been forced onto the smallest and tightest back lanes, and even thats under attack

As above, rallying is all about handling
Its perfecly feasible to build a car that will be effective against a Mitsubushi Evo, not cheaply though

 

[Shoomakan]

If you're rallying Reliability and Handling will get you further than power.

For reliabilty you'll probably want a baffled sump at the least.

Massive Power doesn't matter so much, the mk4 Golf amateur rally cars detune theirs to like 350hp, anymore than that and they find they just spin the tyres or are airborne.

I should be right at 350hp when I install the methanol, and am not looking for any more power after that anymore. Baffled sump isn't a bad idea, but keep in mind our hillclimb is usually over within 1.5-2 minutes, not enough time for the car to really start suffering.

Awesome rules
UK rules suck
Your mountain roads are better than ours too, little bit more sunshine ..
The terrain you have for the Arsoun and the Deir El Qamar is world class
Rallying in the uk has been forced onto the smallest and tightest back lanes, and even thats under attack

As above, rallying is all about handling
Its perfecly feasible to build a car that will be effective against a Mitsubushi Evo, not cheaply though

So it isn't perfectly feasible.

Those are some of our hillclimb tracks, there are plenty of nice roads but I haven't participated in all of them. We have plenty of parking lot auto-x races as well, something I need to start doing more with the Audi.

Do you know Arsoun and Deir El Qamar personally or did you watch more videos on my profile? First time I hear of a forum member who isn't Lebanese who knows those roads.

 

[snowy]

I'd don't know Lebanon personally, but have always been aware the mountains of Lebanon due to my grandfather who setup a ski school sometime around 1943

My knowledge of your rally/hill climbing is purely from what I've seen online - look good fun

A Targa-style road rally would be epic across those roads