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Facelift Pirelli Tyre Defects - Response

AudiNutta Dec 2, 2018

  1. Callump01

    Callump01 Registered User

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    I've got mag ride but no spacers (yet) and had the same issue, so I'm not sure it could be the spacers.
     
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  3. TYb

    TYb Registered User

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    For me it’s somethung worth eliminating for peace of mind more than anything. Rubber is expensive
     
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  4. JamesBaby

    JamesBaby Registered User

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    I've got spacers, and aftermarket wheels. They net me a final offset that is 13mm wider all round. My tyres are wearing evenly all round on Pirelli RO2.
    The Castor was balanced on each side accurately by ATEC Align in Huddersfield after I had wheels, springs and spacers installed.

    When I lowered my car the Castor went more negative, which ultimately affects straight line high speed stability. Later out of OCD, I then fitted Castor increasing bushes to the lower arms at Awesome GTi which added a tiny bit more Castor. Again this was properly aligned again.

    The car needs to be aligned by someone who knows what they are doing, and isn't afraid to unbolt the subframe.
     
  5. Arcam

    Arcam Registered User

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    Do you mean Castor? I would expect more negative Camber with lowered springs/ride hight.

    Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
     
  6. JamesBaby

    JamesBaby Registered User

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    Yes I mean Castor. We all know that Camber is affected by lowering, but Castor is also affected and largely goes unmentioned as few know how to rectify it, and if small usually causes few issues.
     
  7. Arcam

    Arcam Registered User

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    Fair enough, some folk mistake one for the other or use the terms interchangeable which is of course incorrect.

    Nice to see someone taking the time to get the alignment done correctly

    Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
     
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  8. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    Unfortunately not, never a reason to be up there. I’m in South Wales, furthest I plan on going up north any time soon is Leicester.

    I appreciate the contact, I will keep that in mind if I’m ever up that way.
     
  9. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    Here is a copy of my alignment printout James, sounds like you are better off trying to understand it than me.

    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated.

    Quite possible it is a combination of the two. Well Pirelli have explained how much development they put into designing that tyre for that car and how it will be the best for it. If somebody contacted them asking what tyre was best to fit to a car that left the factory with Michelin’s on, the answer would be Michelin and they wouldn’t hide from that.

    The HUGE thing Pirelli offers is the aesthetics of the ‘stretched look’ and the kerb protection that comes from that, making me that little bit more reluctant to change.

    A few have changed to Michelin and it’s opened a whole host of traction issues, most seem to have not gotten far enough to evaluate the wear characteristics.
     
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  11. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    Thank you! Just want a solution to the problem, as I explained to Pirelli it’s really frustrating. In one of my first communications I made clear I’m not seeking compensation, I just want a solution. Audi have basically said they’ve gone as far as they can go, I’ve just left an email with their technical team at the dealer which I hope will find it’s way up to HQ as that seems to be my best bet at the moment in getting any response from Audi.

    A ‘characteristic of the chassis’ is a p**s poor excuse, that’s just burying their head in the sands on an issue caused potentially by either bad design or improper testing.
     
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  13. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    Good point and one I had considered, until @Callump01 came forward with the same issue running no spacers.

    I’ve spoken to a few people and it’s inevtiable spacers will have an effect, on paper the way the car sits will be different. But in practice the difference an 8mm spacer will make will be negligible to none. An 8mm spacer wouldn’t cause a tyre to totally shred itself on the inside edge while the remainder has near on 4mm of tread.

    Please see above for the start of my response to this.

    Audi said they would not do a wheel alignment until the spacers were off, but when have Audi ever agreed to touch a car the moment they realise anything is aftermarket? If you had aftermarket centre caps they’d say they couldn’t change your tyre.

    As soon as I arrived at Pirelli’s centre I told them about the spacers and they were intrigued, but when they had time to think it over realised an 8mm spacer is negligible and wouldn’t have caused that level of wear alone. Not to mention that alignments had been carried out with the spacers on so in theory any advers effects would have been ‘aligned out’.

    I won’t discuss openly on here about costs because I’m not out there to rock any boats. But the car HASN’T been into Audi. They found the tyres on a service (at the same time said they saw spacers), the car had tyres elsewhere literally half the price Audi wanted as well as alignment elsewhere on Hunter equipment (exact same as Audi use). The car went to Pirelli for another Hunter Alignment and full inspection.
    I went back to Audi with all subsequent reports and they were honest and said I’d done all they would do, align the car and inspect which had been done and therefore was pointless booking in because it had gone as far as they could take it.

    My next port of call is to get an Audi Engineer from HQ down to inspect the car and yes, I will probably remove the spacers in prep of that but I won’t hide that they were on the car.

    I’ve said all along I’ve got no problem putting a tank of fuel in the car and my hand in my pocket if I thought I was going for a solution, I’m sick and tired of Audi Warranty after dealing with various dealers across various cars. Nothing against staff I am dealing with now, I just know the process and how they pass the book at any opportunity.
     
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  14. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    I’m interested that you had your caster aligned.

    Now mine is quite badly out as you can see on the report I’ve replied to you with a few posts back. Now I raised this with both my specialist and Pirelli, they looked on the Hunter computer and it showed the manufacturer offers no adjustment for the caster. I’ve been told the caster will ‘sort itself out’ when the car is on the road.

    Not even Audi will set the Caster up....
     
  15. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    I wish I was able to get it done properly, but a 430 mile round trip isn’t something I want to be doing to be honest. Especially because I could hit a pothole half way back down and it be back out again, it’s not a permanent fix :/

    It’s really disappointing that neither my specialist, Audi or Pirelli will set it up.
     
  16. JamesBaby

    JamesBaby Registered User

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    I’m sorry I didn’t reply to your earlier post. Must have forgotten totally. Sorry.

    Regarding your print out the castor looks like mine did when I’d lowered it. I don’t think you can manually dial that much castor back.

    Far simpler You need the castor increasing bushes like I had fitted. It will sort your issue and it will feel like a different car.

    I’ll dig out part numbers later. Not expensive iirc.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    No need to apologise, all have been posted tonight just in one batch while I caught up. Spent the day at Bath Christmas Market, the other half has always wanted to go... mixed reviews.

    Thanks for that I’d appreciate the part details, but am back to the same old rubbish of invalidating warranty and making things worse for my complaint.
     
  18. Stu+mel

    Stu+mel Registered User

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    20181027_133542.jpg My tyres are with Pirelli as we speak for inspection, I've also complained to my local dealer....think I'm going to lodge a complaint with Audi uk.

    Mine after 8000 miles
     
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  19. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    Thanks very much for your input, really unnerving to see how many cars this is happening to!
     
  20. D0C

    D0C Registered User

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    Guys, this wear on your tyres is so far on the side and not a normal contact patch that are you sure it's not catching something inside the wheel arch?

    I just can't see how a tyre should wear in that way. Sure, if your wheels are fully locked over then perhaps, but you are doing a few mph tops in this situation.

    Even the grooves on the very inside look more than ok...this wear is almost side on!
     
  21. jrumball

    jrumball Registered User

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    my experiences and thoughts are documented in this thread

    https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/scary-tyre-wear.380612/

    cut a long story short I had very similar wear and the tracking was fine.... Audi though it may of had bad tracking before I got it ...... I think it is an issue with the way the car is set up Pirelli think the same .

    I would be very interested in hearing what happens to you complaint ........

    IMG_1439 copy 2.jpg IMG_4860.jpg IMG_4855.jpg
     
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  22. jrumball

    jrumball Registered User

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  23. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    Thanks a lot for posting about your experience.

    I hope if we all escalate this with Audi and Pirelli we will get somewhere eventually. Tomorrow I will finally make time to email What Car about this and the DVSA.
     
  24. jrumball

    jrumball Registered User

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    PM me if you would like to have my details to pass on too. The whole experience has been terrible with both the dealers and Audi UK, more than happy to help out if I can
     
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  25. Slowracer

    Slowracer Registered User

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    I’m suspecting that the problem may be a combination of both tyre construction and the set up of the car. Where geometry is at the extreme end of the spec it exacerbates the tyre wear which appears to be weak at the edge. Hence why some haven’t seen the problem or it’s only become evident towards the end of the tyres life.

    It’s a **** poor situation which both tyre manufacturer and Audi should work on to resolve. Instead they just ignore it and let the owner bare the cost, which is a much easier and more cost effective option for the manufacturers.
     
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  26. SMI77

    SMI77 Australia

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    Excellent write up there. Am not an expert but still have some observations.
    * +1 on the thought they would entertain any warranty with a modified vehicle. However, they are very conscious of their brand name/value & duty of care and would examine the tyres to ensure their product is not faulty in any way to negate any possible future litigation.
    * There does not appear to be any comment from Pirelli about tyre pressures.
    * From personal experience, the outer wear appears simply from positive attitude when cornering!
    * If this occurs from rubbing on something on the inside with spacers on, surely spacers off would exacerbate the problem?
    * Interesting that there appears to be no such problem on AudiZine US forum.
    * Because they are s-o-o similar, obviously "Sam Taylor" has a letter template and simply inserts the relevant text. Many more similar letters??
    * Audi & Pirelli are o/seas based multi-national corporations. Increases the difficulty in being heard by the appropriate staff who should hear about the problem. It's called Vertical Filtering, when UK will only tell HO when it is absolutely necessary that there is a raging bushfire.
    * The Pirelli kerb protection looks good, that's all. Ours has dreadful P Zero's and before the next set of tyres, will require repairs to a rim, and the biff was not that hard. Granted there is protection when turning into or out of a driveway.
    * Contemplating PS4s. You say Michelins open a whole host of traction issues. Only aware of better grip wet & dry (it is hybrid construction) with better turn in. Done a forum search which appears to reveal nothing. Would you please clarify?
     
  27. Callump01

    Callump01 Registered User

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    I have the PS4S on mine (square setup) and I had serious traction control issues at the beginning, to the point where I couldn't accelerate even remotely hard in a straight line without TC flashing like crazy. The car also felt very 'jittery' and almost borderline unsafe at high speeds after having them fitted. It's hard to describe the steering feel, but it was almost like the feeling of crosswind pushing the car ever so slightly side-to-side when blasting along on a straight road at anything above ~65 MPH... not exactly a feeling that fills you with confidence to put your foot down.

    But after putting some miles on the tyres those issues seem to have all but disappeared. The tyres are significantly better in the wet than my Pirelli's were and I will happily put up with the 'teething' issues I had breaking these tyres in for the peace of mind that they'll last significantly longer than the Pirelli's. On public roads, I have yet to even find the limit with these tyres. They are phenomenal.

    Something worth nothing is that the PS4S are a fair bit wider tyre than the Pirelli's (despite being the same size on paper) which can supposedly play havoc with the quattro/haldex in our cars and that may be why they are a bit naughty at the start.

    If this whole defect issue isn't solved (whatever the actual cause is) then I will be sticking with the Michelin's despite the aesthetics and curb protection being quite a bit lackluster in comparison.

    If you have the staggered setup then I've heard TC is much more of an issue, so as always your mileage may vary.
     
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  28. billymc92

    billymc92 2018 Ara Blue Facelift RS3

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    1000% exactly what I could feel. Felt like it was crabbing. And I kept thinking it was bad winds!!!!
     
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  29. Callump01

    Callump01 Registered User

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    Glad to hear it wasn’t just me experiencing it mate!

    Has yours gone now? I can’t say that I have experienced it for quite awhile now, but whether that’s just because i’ve gotten used to it, the quattro system has ‘learned’ (?) or if it’s just a little niggle as part of the “run-in” process like the TC flashing that has since disappeared...

    Who knows :whistle2:
     
  30. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    I’ve filled in answers to your points in red as that’s easiest....


    * +1 on the thought they would entertain any warranty with a modified vehicle. However, they are very conscious of their brand name/value & duty of care and would examine the tyres to ensure their product is not faulty in any way to negate any possible future litigation.

    Pirelli genuinely weren’t phased by the idea of the car having spacers, it isn’t heavily modified in any way haha. When they thought it through as I waited, they realised in reality the effect would be little to none and dropped any idea of that being the issue. Had it been a possibility they would have raised it with me on the day of inspection.

    * There does not appear to be any comment from Pirelli about tyre pressures.

    Eagle eyed viewer ;) I had forgotten to mention that and was going to add a piece. We discussed pressures and compared to what is recommended on the sticker inside the drivers door. My pressures are monitored daily by way of TPMS answers normally manually checked with a compressor monthly anyway. From the visit to Pirelli they recommended I upped my pressures as a trial. I used to run 39psi front, 36psi rear as recommended, now I’m testing with 42psi front and 39psi rear. The ride is obviously a lot firmer than it was, steering feel is relatively similar so I’m sticking with it but the tyre wear does still seem to be happening however I am only 3000 miles in.

    * From personal experience, the outer wear appears simply from positive attitude when cornering!

    Agreed that seems to be normal, I didn’t pick up on the outer wear that was Pirelli. It is the inside wear that has bothered me obviously, the outside wear was only slight and not something I’m worried about because the tyre would have lasted.

    * If this occurs from rubbing on something on the inside with spacers on, surely spacers off would exacerbate the problem?

    If you mean the inside of the tyre rubbing on something, don’t you mean spacers would eliminate the issue? If it was rubbing due to clearance then spacers would help clear the issue? Anyway as I’ve mentioned through this thread which is quite quickly growing, my spacers are only 8mm which is very small.

    * Interesting that there appears to be no such problem on AudiZine US forum.

    That is interesting, but then not everybody on this forum in the UK has the issue either. It seems to be an issue with a certain build period or particular combination of optional extras.

    * Because they are s-o-o similar, obviously "Sam Taylor" has a letter template and simply inserts the relevant text. Many more similar letters??

    I was thinking that, the Pirelli letters are very similar so it is just a standard thing but still if they get no end of complaints they may feel the need to take more serious action.

    * Audi & Pirelli are o/seas based multi-national corporations. Increases the difficulty in being heard by the appropriate staff who should hear about the problem. It's called Vertical Filtering, when UK will only tell HO when it is absolutely necessary that there is a raging bushfire.

    Well aware this is going to be one of my biggest issues. This is why I’ve left an email pushing my disappointment through with Audi and requested that they try and find the best people to send it to. I hear a lot about ‘Audi Technical’ but so I’m told you can’t ever speak to them yourselves, there isn’t a contact number and they only speak to dealers and tell them what to do. I need this to be escalated to those with the power to act, before anything will happen otherwise there is no hope going between customer service and the Audi centre.

    * The Pirelli kerb protection looks good, that's all. Ours has dreadful P Zero's and before the next set of tyres, will require repairs to a rim, and the biff was not that hard. Granted there is protection when turning into or out of a driveway.

    It’s not invincible and I didn’t think much of it, until they saved me. I am so so careful with my wheels, I won’t go up any kerb or down for that matter and I very rarely parallel park. Once in a multi-storey car park my back wheel clipped a kerb and the whole car jolted and shuffled across to the left. It made me feel sick and I dreaded looking at the damage, there wasn’t a blemish on the wheel just a dirty scuff on the tyre. If the tyre can bounce off a kerb and move the whole car without causing damage, I’m sold on them.

    * Contemplating PS4s. You say Michelins open a whole host of traction issues. Only aware of better grip wet & dry (it is hybrid construction) with better turn in. Done a forum search which appears to reveal nothing. Would you please clarify?

    Best to refer to Billy’s and Callum’s feedback on this, I’m just going off of their experiences that I’ve read about before.
     
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  31. billymc92

    billymc92 2018 Ara Blue Facelift RS3

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    Nope I constantly had it. Didn’t even help me when I turned the traction into sport. I was about to up the tire pressures to see if it helped a bit but got the puncture so just went straight back to Pirelli’s
     
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  32. Slowracer

    Slowracer Registered User

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    I beleive that wheel offset on the USA cars is slightly different so that may have a bearing on the wear issue.

    I did a poll on the Aus forums and most guys running a square set up with PS4s claim to have no traction control problems. I do feel that temperature also plays a role here as well as I had more traction control lights when I travelled down south in winter. Generally our climate in Sydney is mild.

    I suspect there are a couple of factors contributing to the problem hence why there are so many variables. The first step is having Audi/pirelli acknowledge that there is a problem.

    I had a similar problem with a local Australian made car years ago on the rear wheels. The camber and toe settings would change significantly when carrying a load in the rear and the inside of tyre would scrub out. It was so common that most suspension shops brought out a fix for it, yet the car manufacturer refused to recognise the problem. Sometimes a class action suite is needed to give the manufacturer a shot in the arm.
     
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  34. Goubo1

    Goubo1 Registered User

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    With the staggered set up I read (can’t find the thread now and there was a picture of the 255 mps4s vs p zero and the 4s is wider even when both are 255) that with the rs3 on staggered set up you must use oem tyres as pirelli made the 255 fronts the same aspect ratio as the 235 so that the 35% aspect ratio of the 255 35 19 Tyre was the same as the 235 35 19 Tyre

    Where the mps4s wouldn’t be the same so the 255 Pilot4s would have a bigger rolling radius than that of the 235 so wheel speed would be different from front to back causing traction control issues

    So sounds like square set up any Tyre you want staggered set up oem spec Tyre only

    I’m square set up pre face lift with the oem p zeros and looks like I’m getting some slightly more wear on the outsides of the front tyres on the shoulders
     
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  35. Seanchadwick2k3

    Seanchadwick2k3 Audi A6 C6 2.0tdi 2011 Sline Special Edition

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    I've been reading through this Thread and some of the others, don't have this car or issue myself but has anyone tried marking everything in the area behind the wheel that could potentially touch it under certain conditions and then maybe took it out on a dry day? Not sure what you could use something nice and bright, if the rubbing is bad enough to cause that sort of damage surely it would remove your marking and leave something behind on the tyre too?
     
  36. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    I don’t think anybody has done this no, but I take my wheels off and clean under my arches every few months. I’d spot if there was a point that it was wearing on, it’s almost definitely from contact with the tarmac. Good idea though!
     
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  37. Slowracer

    Slowracer Registered User

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    If the tyre was rubbing on the car somewhere you’d hear it, it would reverberate noticeably through the chassis.
     
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  38. SMI77

    SMI77 Australia

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    Many thanks for that info, otherwise this old grump will have a massive ticker blowout at the first symptom.
    With the matter of the PS4S being wider, on a 255mm tyre, any ballpark as to how much - 5mm, 10mm? Also are we talking about width of tread, or overall width, as P Zero's have an extremely wide rim protection?
    Many thanks, plus we live in Brisbane (closer to the Equator - for those in Nth'n h'sphere ), so fingers crossed.
    Many thanks for that.

    If one has an issue, and does not go straight to the dealer, but either has an independent wheel alignment done or has replacement tyres fitted, it becomes extremely difficult to prove a claim.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  39. jrumball

    jrumball Registered User

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    @AudiNutta have you been keeping track of the number of people who have reported these kind of problems
     
  40. teslaboy

    teslaboy Mythos black RS3 8v FL

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    Right then, took some photos of the fronts and fuxx it I got the same issue starting to show in the insides after 8k miles....

    After reading all the posts on here looks like i wont be going for R02s again !!

    20181208_133450-2016x1134.jpg 20181208_133445-1134x2016.jpg
     
  41. alexhop

    alexhop Registered User

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    Me to, was just doing fitting my carbon mud guards and noticed the inside shoulder is buggered, car currently has 18000km, rears are obviously fine with barley any sign of use. Also have the same old dilemma of what to put on there. Probably thinking another set of 255 R02's then switch to the Michelins PS4 245's on the whole car which apparently don't have the traction control issues.

    20181208_115248.jpg
     
  42. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    Yep you’ve got the issue alright.

    What will you go for?

    Could you take the time to contact Pirelli and Audi for us all please?
     
  43. AudiNutta

    AudiNutta Moderator Staff Member Moderator Gold Supporter

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    This is just taking the mickey now, it really is. The more I see the more frustrated I’m getting.

    As above, would you please be able to contact Pirelli and Audi using the details I have provided? It will help us all.
     
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