New TQS Owner & Project

[MaverickTDi]

Evening all,

I recently acquired a Hibiscus Red TQS. This isn't my first b5 - I've owned a TDI Avant and 1.8 SE non-turbo.

150k on the clock, 4 owners, FASH (remarkably) and pretty much standard. I gave £1000 for it.

Here you go;

Car itself is in good nick for age - a couple of stone chips and a small dent on the upper part of the bonnet. Usual b5 faults - lower door trim starting to come away and the DIS losing pixels, nothing that can't be fixed.

Plans;

I hear it's possible to offer up a KO4 turbo to these now - I'd like a little more punch, nothing silly but around 240bhp.

I'll be changing the wheels back to Bolero's as I'm not liking the RS4 rep look - they just don't look right without flared arches and bigger bumpers.

Brakes need changing very soon so as opportunity knocks I'll be looking at some sort of OEM+ upgrade. I think I have the calipers and carriers from an Audi TT in my garage compete with 312mm discs and Ferodo pads - they should bolt on?

More to come but no doubt many questions too.

Cheers


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[Andy avant b5]

Welcome bud loving the motor am getting a a4 b5 avant 1.8t in a couple of weeks start a project thread mate will be up for viewing the progress looks mint

 

[aragorn]

K03 hybrid will get you to about 250 easily enough. The "k04" on these cars isnt really a K04. I would seriously consider a TFSI K03 turbo if i was starting from scratch on one of these. Perhaps a little more work, but should be a much better end result than the hybridised stock turbo.

You need to use the TT carriers with the original A4 caliper, and the disks from a B6 A4 3.0 V6. The TT disks dont work (wrong offset and PCD), and the TT caliper itself doesnt work as the pistons too small. For the pads you use the original A4 fitment ones.

 

[aragorn]

oh and if your looking for boleros, keep your eye out for the wider 8J versions, they fill the arches out better!

 

[MaverickTDi]

K03 hybrid will get you to about 250 easily enough. The "k04" on these cars isnt really a K04. I would seriously consider a TFSI K03 turbo if i was starting from scratch on one of these. Perhaps a little more work, but should be a much better end result than the hybridised stock turbo.

You need to use the TT carriers with the original A4 caliper, and the disks from a B6 A4 3.0 V6. The TT disks dont work (wrong offset and PCD), and the TT caliper itself doesnt work as the pistons too small. For the pads you use the original A4 fitment ones.

Right I see. Might just go for the K03 hybrid then. Any recommendations where to have this done? Turbo dynamics? I assume the TFSI k03 will need some sort of adaptor plate for the down pipe?

In your opinion what else, in addition to the turbo upgrade, would I need to consider upgrading achieve 240bhp?

I've just unearthed a thread that I started a few years ago about upgrading the brakes on my b5 non-turbo. The discs I have are for the b6. The calipers came in to the equation because I needed them to complete the upgrade but now I have a TQS it's just discs & carriers, as your rightly point out.

What about rears discs? Do standard S4 ones bolt straight on?

Cheers.


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[jbh]

looks good. I like the colour

 

[MaverickTDi]

looks good. I like the colour

Cheers mate - yeah colour was what done it for me and that it had been looked after unlike some of the others I'd seen for sale at that time - ****** awful.

I was actually looking for a green one but when this one popped up it was hard to turn it down.


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[aragorn]

Various places do the hybrid K03's. Mines made by beachbuggy. I imagine turbo dynamics and likes also produce the, though a quick look at their website leaves me somewhat underwhelmed.

The TFSI turbo requires an adaptor for the exhaust manifold, as the cylinder head flange is different and the TFSI turbo has the manifold built in, it also needs a different downpipe, possibly custom (i suspect B7 downpipe might work, but unconfirmed). Beachbuggy turbo's sell the adaptor plate for the cylinder head.

The difference is you can buy a decent used A4 TFSI turbo for about £150-200, but then need to spend money on the adaptor. The TFSI's integrated exhaust manifold is significantly better than the 1.8T unit. Whereas with the K03 hybrid, you'll be spending £600-1000 on the turbo, and be stuck with the restrictive K03 hotside housing and 1.8T exhaust manifold... I also feel that OEM turbos just work better. Everythings sized properly and flows correctly and it all just becomes smoother and nicer.

Either way, you'll need MAF and injector upgrade, a decent exhaust and a decent intercooler. Probably also need a decat or sports cat, though it might be ok without.

 

[Lowfield]

Nice car / colour Maverick.
As a side note Kev, how far can you push a tfsi ko3.

 

[MaverickTDi]

Yeah I've heard of Beachbuggy.

How come it's so expensive for the hybrid? Am I wrong to assume a hybrid turbo is basically a stock turbo with the housing bored out to take a bigger turbine shaft? Or is there more to it?

Do you reckon all in the TFSI route is cheaper when you consider the downpipe?

What turbo do I need? K03-blah blah?

Ok, what MAF and injectors am I looking for?

IC - will a revised side mounted cooler cut it or will I need to go FMIC? If front mounted, are we looking at hacking the bumper to fit?

Cheers for the info mate


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[aragorn]

well stage 2 on a TFSI will do around 280hp i believe.

 

[MaverickTDi]

well stage 2 on a TFSI will do around 280hp i believe.

Not bad + Quattro =


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[aragorn]

Yeah I've heard of Beachbuggy.

How come it's so expensive for the hybrid? Am I wrong to assume a hybrid turbo is basically a stock turbo with the housing bored out to take a bigger turbine shaft? Or is there more to it?

Do you reckon all in the TFSI route is cheaper when you consider the downpipe?

What turbo do I need? K03-blah blah?

Ok, what MAF and injectors am I looking for?

IC - will a revised side mounted cooler cut it or will I need to go FMIC? If front mounted, are we looking at hacking the bumper to fit?

Cheers for the info mate


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Because it requires precision engineering. A basic turbo rebuild is what? 300quid? so you've got that, plus the cost of buying new larger wheels, and boring out the compressor and turbine housings etc. Also the bigger compressor doesnt actually fit in the stock cover, so you need to source a different larger cover and make that work etc etc.

Its probably not cheaper, but shouldnt cost any more and is IMO a better solution.

I believe the part number is 5303 970 0106 or 06D145701J Theres probably a few other numbers that cross over.

Heres an example:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-A4-2...953985?hash=item33cf761341:g:ABIAAOSwWxNYwFdK

For the MAF you need a MK3 Golf VR6 housing ("OBD2" type) and put your stock sensor inside. For the injectors, Vauxhall C20LET are a decent option for the mid 200's, i'm using VXR ones which are a bit bigger (470cc vs 320). Stock are 220ish.

I would suggest a proper FMIC, it should go behind the bumper with some trimming. See my "sub wellycooler" thread.

 

[MaverickTDi]

Cheers for all the 'gen' - great stuff!

Out of curiosity, what would be the bhp drop if I were to leave the stock IC fitted but embody all the other upgrades. Or is that just daft?

Vauxhall injectors drop straight in!? Would have never thought that - who on earth stumble across that?

Would you anticipate it being hard for a tuner to map the car to ensure all the upgrades work together?

I assume you have a TQS as well?

If you don't mind me asking - what's it running?


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[aragorn]

stock intercooler is already out of its depth with standard power. Its simply not big enough. The B6 190 got a twin intercooler setup, but even that isnt all that great for big power.

Theres a whole family of injectors (Bosch EV1) that fit, the Vauxhall ones just happen to be common enough and big enough. SAAB reds work too. The VXR ones needed a bit of filing to fit, whereas the LET/SAAB injectors are a direct fit in the B5 rail.

These cars are awkward to tune, because the stock ECU cannot be flashed. It can only be chipped like back in the 90's. There are two solutions. Easy: Fit the ECU from an AGU engined A3 or Golf. these are plug and play compatible and are flashable. Difficult: Convert to the ME7 drive by wire setup from a later 1.8T engine. Much more involved but much easier to tune.

A decent tuner wont have an issue mapping the car though, but you might have to be prepared to drive to someone that knows what they are doing. I drove my car to Unicorn in Stockport (from Fife, Scotland) to get it tuned.

I do have a TQS. Its got a Beachbuggy hybrid on it along with most of the other bits mentioned here and makes 280hp. The turbos capable of about 330hp though, and chokes badly due to the restrictive hotside housing and exhaust manifold, which is why i'm saying if i did it all again, i'd go TFSI.

 

[Lowfield]

This thread interests me.
What, by definition is a stage 2 with tfsi turbo setup?
C20let injectors
Vr6 maf
Exh mani adaptor
Fmic 63mm pipework toyosport cooler
Decent exhaust / 3in downpipe
Flashable ecu
Better brakes (for safety)

If you port the head and fit forged rods can you release more power or are we talking bigger turbo.

I found with the 2.7tt engine for dailly / fast road application the basic s to rs conversion was hard to beat ie in hp terms 265 to 420 with masses of torque.

Would this formula apply to the 1.8t ? Ie 180 to 290 again with masses of torque.

 

[aragorn]

"stage2" on an original TFSI A4 would usually mean exhaust and intercooler and possible a high pressure fuel pump upgrade. Maybe some other bits. Not all that clued up on the TFSI engines. Stage 2 generally means "all the bolt on bits" and thus represents the limits of the standard turbocharger.

No point touching the head until your approaching 500hp.

Forged rods are a good plan if your passing 300hp, or less power with an aggressive torquey tune.

You'll never get 2.7T torque levels from a 1.8T, but i think the TFSI turbo is going to give you the best blend of power and torque. If you go any larger, it really starts hurting the low end.

As for your comparison, its worth remembering that the 180 engine is mechanically identical to the 150 engine, Audi just remapped it from the factory. Which is why it doesnt see the usual turbo style gains. Remap the S4 engine and your going from 265 to 310-320, whereas remap the TQS and your going from 180 to 190.

 

[aragorn]

This is the dynoplot from my car:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jhqyg3c9k93kslt/Avant-Dyno-Unicorn.png?dl=0

I would hope the TFSI turbo would spool a bit quicker, and hold on much better at the top end, rather than going off a cliff like mine does.

 

[Lowfield]

That's interesting regarding head. So no port matching needed aswell if going tfsi with adaptor plate?

What do you think of this? It's a 2004 AMD remap(chio) on a standard tqs.

 

[Lowfield]

Your plot is similar to a standard s4 Kev. Does it have similar characteristics on the road?

 

[Samuel c5 Q]

Does anyone mind if I ask what the best method is to launch a Quattro? I'm used to fwd cars and either bug down or threaten to burn the clutch out.

 

[Lowfield]

Left foot down. Engage 1st. Right foot down. Slide left foot LEFT !!

 

[aragorn]

The AMD graph shows unrealistic power numbers. With a decent modern well calibrated dyno, the stock K03 turbo will do about 200hp and thats it. I've seen folk have tunes with all the bolt ons under the sun and come away with 195hp.


The biggest difference with the S4/1.8T is below maybe 2500-3000rpm.

The S4 comes on boost much earlier, AND has 50% more displacement, so in that low part of the rev range the S4 is night and day better. It has quite literally double the power. Mine is quite a slug down there. Infact i have a chart that shows the difference:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/issd0uioa2kqwts/2016-10-10 09_43_56-Clipboard.png?dl=0

I've overlayed various data i sourced online with my dyno plot. Some things are pretty evident... the remapped S4 monsters everything in the midrange. You can really see how ours (listed as Dawns) really hits a wall and falls on its face due to the restriction, compared with everything else. Its really noticable on the road too. Thats why i'm really strongly suggesting you dont bother with hybridised K03's and just fit the TFSI turbo. Prawns car has the K04-TFSI turbo from an S3 on it, you can see at the low end of the rev range again it spools slower. I think he was limiting boost a little bit down there for traction reasons hence the slightly concave look to the curve, but imagine it as a streight line and you'll have an idea of what fitting an even larger turbo does.

I would hope that with the TFSI turbo it'll be better. You can see the TFSI B7 on the chart, and you can see how its a much nicer curve than mine.

The issue i have, is that its a 330hp turbo CHRA, wedged into housings that have choked it down so its maxed out at 280. As a result, you end up with the lag of a 330hp turbo, but only 280hp. The TFSI turbo on the other hand is more like a 280hp turbo, so it'll spool quicker, wont choke because all the housings are the right size, and will make the same power with a nicer spread of torque.

 

[PaulJC84]

What roughly would be the cost of changing rods? I think they cost about £500 for the rods but unsure of the labour and its probably one of those things where people think well if I am doing rods I will do X,Y and Z as well.

I saw a great series of guides on youtube but I would never tackle that myself I don't think. Although I would love to.

 

[aragorn]

budget a grand i suspect.

Rods are closer to 600quid, and then you need bearings, rings, gaskets etc etc.

I decided it wasnt worth it. If the engine blows up, i'll spend £200 on another one and install that instead.

 

[PaulJC84]

Yeah I can see the cost is a lot more than a second hand engine.

If I were doing it I would have to just do the rods as I would want it reliable. It would be fun seeing what a standard engine could cope with though.

https://www.performancebyie.com/blog/guide-building-1-8t-1997-2005-engine-block-right-first-time/

That site is interesting. I was not aware that the crankshaft timing gear is weak. But I guess everything gets pushed as you turn up the wick.

I love that there is so many parts available for these engines and generally they are pretty tough and tuneable.

Every few years around the belt service I think it would be great to chuck in some rods at the same time so the engine is good for if I ever wanted to go BT.

 

[aragorn]

I've come to the conclusion that if you need more power than the stock motor will handle, you simply need a bigger engine.

Why spent thousands messing around with big turbo 1.8T when an S4 engine costs 500quid and goes to and beyond 450hp without issue... The end result will also be FAR nicer to drive than a 450hp 1.8T.

 

[PaulJC84]

Yeah I would love high 300 bhp 1.8T and I like that its then quite serviceable and accessible compared to the S4 which would be far more than I could manage. The costs for those guys are crazy. At least once it was done and if you needed a few repares here or there it should be a good chunk cheaper and I can swap the turbo out easily enough.

 

[MaverickTDi]

Aragorn - thanks for info, is there anything you don't know about the b5 .

Getting back to brakes quickly - what, if any, OEM+ upgrades are there for the rears?

All discs and pads need doing so considering all options.

Cheers.


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[aragorn]

Facelift S4 is one option but a bit dear.

As discussed in another recent thread, the B7 280mm rears are cheap as chips and a decent upgrade.

 

[MaverickTDi]

Facelift S4 is one option but a bit dear.

As discussed in another recent thread, the B7 280mm rears are cheap as chips and a decent upgrade.

So to complete this upgrade I'd need b7 calipers and discs. The other thread talks about longer bolts - are these the caliper bolts? And spacers - where exactly would these sit?

I assume I'll need different hoses too?

Cheers.


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[aragorn]

yeh B7 calipers and B7 disks. the spacers go between the caliper and hub, as the B7 disk is shallower and thus the caliper needs spaced forward by the same amount. The spacers mean the stock bolts arent long enough and you need longer ones.

 

[MaverickTDi]

Evening chaps,

Just after some recommendations for spark plugs, gearbox oil and diff oil if it's different to gearbox oil for a TQS.

Cheers.





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[MaverickTDi]

Just a quick bump on the previous post.

More so spark plugs.

Cheers.


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[PaulJC84]

NGK BKR6E but swap them out every year or PFR6Q and they last ages.

 

[RaulQTS]

I have a gt28rs eliminator in the classified section pm if interested

 

[MaverickTDi]

NGK BKR6E but swap them out every year or PFR6Q and they last ages.

Cheers mate

I'll go with the PFR6Q - £25 on eBay.


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[Oranoco]

I always use NGK BKR6EK's

 

[MaverickTDi]

Evening chaps,

Just changing my spark plugs today and upon removing the coil pack closest to the bulk head I find it bathing in engine oil . See pic;

Here's a coil pack I removed not caked in oil;

Any ideas what could be the cause??

Cheers.


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[MaverickTDi]

Think I may have found the cause of the intermittent/hesitant staring;

The centre electrode was badly degraded - all 4 were like this.

Starts on the button now


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