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Need some assistance with my diagnostic - please (logs provided) :)

Crs Mar 2, 2020

  1. Crs

    Crs Registered User

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    Hello All
    I hope some people here can help me out as I like to do this myself than to leave with a garage who will probably just throw parts at it and do more guess work. Money is a little tight and I do like working on problems myself anyway.

    Brief history
    S3 2011, CDL Engine, DSG 6 speed with 70k miles
    I got the car in August and it seem to drive ok I do not recall ever getting a management light.
    Upon getting the car I replaced the DV with the newest G revision from Audi.
    I had no faults to suggest anything but in the knowledge that the DV needs replaced I thought with my car having 70k miles it would be a good idea.

    I booked the car in for a service in early October 2019 and had following done;
    fuel filter, oil, plugs, haldex, oil filter, air filter,cam follower, oil pickup pipe.

    I can't say for sure the service and my next issues relate but in late November I noticed the car going into limp mode. I used my bluetooth vagcom thing and dashcmd on the iphone and found the following errors;
    Code P0172: System too rich (Bank 1) P0172
    P0441 - Evaporative Emission System Incorrect Purge Flow

    I hoped these both related and replaced the EVAP sensor (i bought a cheapy one on ebay) it didn't resolve the issue so I bit the bullet and bought one from Audi...It resolved the issue and I also replaced the carbon canister (got that on amazon so not genuine audi). The EVAP error (P0441) has never come back since.

    I get the limp mode on a daily basis almost and appears to come sooner the harder I drive it.
    The bluetooth dongle/dashcmd always displays the same fault "P0172".

    I replaced the MAF, dip stick, fuel cap and PCV.

    I eventually got VCDS and it looks like it is showing a different error code but kind of the same thing "too rich condition"

    Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-CDL.clb
    Control Module Part Number: 8P0 907 115 AP HW: 8P0 907 115 B
    Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0010
    Software Coding: 0103000C1C0F0160
    Work Shop Code: WSC 14129 411 435910
    1 Fault Found:

    008568 - Bank 1; System Too Rich off Idle
    P2178 - 002 -
    Freeze Frame:
    Fault Status: 01100010
    Fault Priority: 2
    Fault Frequency: 3
    Reset counter: 255
    Time Indication: 0
    Date: 2020.03.01
    Time: 13:40:16

    Freeze Frame:
    RPM: 1771 /min
    Load: 47.0 %
    Speed: 22.0 km/h
    Temperature: 63.0°C
    Temperature: 22.0°C
    Absolute Pres.: 970.0 mbar
    Voltage: 14.097 V


    Readiness: 0000 0000


    ---
    When I look at Group 32 and 33 with this fault logged I see;

    Address 01: Engine (8P0 907 115 AP)

    16:23:58 Group 032: Lambda Control (Mixture Adaptation)
    5.3 % Adaptation (Idle) Bank 1 Sensor 1
    -23.0 % Adaptation (Partial) Bank 1 Sensor 1



    16:23:58 Group 033: Lambda Control
    -2.7 % Lambda Control Bank 1 Sensor 1
    1.48 V Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 1


    - Obviously the -23% is the cause for the fault.

    Question 1:
    Why is this a different code to the bluetooth dongle I use?

    Question 2:
    I ran a measure on groups 32 and 33.
    I reset all error codes to return fuel trims to 0.
    On group 32 it's 0% and 0%
    On Idle group 33 - short term fuel trim flucuates between -2% and 2%.
    From what I understand that's perfect?
    My research suggests that a VAC leak is only evident on idle and would show up on this idle test. I seen the effect of the dip stick test on youtube but it seems my car has no such vac leak..

    Question 3:
    When I rev the car in nuetral whilst meansuring groups 32 and 33 I noticed that short term fuel (in group 33) jumps upto -15%. Is this normal behaviour ?

    Question 4:
    I do not know if my car is remapped but I ran a quick test, I used 3 gear and set box to manual.
    I get MAF readings like;
    Group C: 002
    Engine Speed Engine Load Injection Timing Mass Air Flow
    TIME (G28) Sensor (G70)
    STAMP /min % ms g/s
    17.97 4320 146.6 4.08 134.31
    18.33 4720 143.6 4.08 143.47
    18.69 5120 139.1 4.08 150.11
    19.03 5480 142.1 4.34 165.22
    19.41 5840 145.1 4.34 181.47
    19.77 6200 145.9 4.34 196.58
    20.11 6560 152.6 4.59 217.67
    20.49 5080 174.4 4.34 212.11
    20.85 5160 191.7 6.12 221.47
    21.24 5440 191.7 6.12 230.22
    21.62 5680 191.7 5.87 237.33
    21.96 5920 191 5.61 240
    22.33 6160 184.2 5.61 241.31
    22.69 6360 178.9 5.36 243.67
    23.02 6600 173.7 5.36 244
    23.39 5880 172.9 4.34 219.22
    23.74 5080 176.7 5.61 194.53
    24.11 5080 15.8 0.51 10.81


    I believe if you take highest figure and devide by 0.8 it gives rough estimate of BHP? so 244/0.8 = 305bhp ? That would indicate a remap?


    Question 5
    Does this look like a boost leak or is it normal boost?

    Group C: 115
    Engine Speed Engine Load Boost Pressure Boost Pressure
    TIME (G28) (specified) (actual)
    STAMP /min % mbar mbar
    43.52 1600 31.6 500 990
    43.87 1680 27.8 440 990
    47.97 1960 65.4 1040 1000
    48.08 2040 69.2 1060 1010
    48.19 2080 74.4 1090 1020
    48.32 2120 78.9 1140 1040
    48.44 2200 83.5 1290 1060
    48.55 2240 87.2 1520 1080
    48.66 2240 93.2 1590 1090
    48.77 1920 104.5 1450 1120
    48.89 1960 108.3 1440 1150
    49 1920 111.3 1430 1170
    49.12 1920 113.5 1430 1190
    49.22 1920 115 1420 1190
    49.33 1960 115.8 1450 1210
    49.46 2000 118 1460 1220
    49.56 2040 119.5 1510 1230
    49.68 2120 121.8 1550 1250
    49.78 2160 124.8 1590 1260
    49.91 2200 127.1 1650 1290
    50.05 2280 131.6 1660 1320
    50.18 2320 133.8 1650 1350
    50.29 2400 136.1 1620 1370
    50.41 2440 139.8 1600 1400
    50.54 2480 133.1 1480 1430
    50.67 2600 118.8 1220 1460
    50.79 2600 103 1140 1480
    50.91 2680 91.7 1000 1410



    164.49 2040 109.8 1730 1150
    164.6 2160 112.8 2000 1170
    164.73 2360 115.8 2120 1210
    164.85 2600 118.8 2220 1250
    164.99 2920 125.6 2230 1320
    165.1 3040 135.3 2230 1380
    165.23 3360 147.4 2240 1490
    165.35 3600 163.9 2230 1630
    165.48 3800 181.2 2210 1790
    165.6 4000 191.7 2230 1960
    165.72 4280 191.7 2230 2020
    165.82 4520 191.7 2230 2040
    165.93 4560 191.7 2240 2090
    166.05 4760 191.7 2250 2120
    166.2 4920 191.7 2250 2120
    166.32 5080 191.7 2260 2120
    166.43 5240 191.7 2260 2100
    166.54 5400 191.7 2260 2080
    166.66 5520 167.7 1450 1920
    166.8 5600 118.8 870 1790
    166.91 5640 60.9 620 1790
    167.03 5640 31.6 490 1420
    167.15 5680 23.3 360 1330



    Question 6
    From all of the above what would you suggest? The car smells like it's running rich, the MPG isn't great i'm getting roughly 30 miles to £10 of fuel around the city... When I reset codes the car pulls like an absolute train - it's very quick! but then this limp code ruins everything! If I had a boost leak I would expect lesser performance.. Does it sound like an O2 sensor?

    I have a warranty for "non wear and tear" parts only...

    Please help a brother out i'm so baffled by this fault :(
     
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  3. Crs

    Crs Registered User

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    Anyone? :bye:

    I can find nothing online about p2178... I don't understand how the short term fuel adjustment goes to high - % when I use throttle.
    If it was a boost leak it wouldn't be apparent while i'm rev'ing in N as in N gear the turbo doesn't spool, right?
    I confirm that also by recording the requested and actual boost and it remains at baseline.

    :cower:
     
  4. samuelh_888

    samuelh_888 Registered User

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    You raised your initial post at 10am when most of us are at work and sent a chaser post at 6pm while we are travelling home...

    I suspect you’ve seen this:

    16556/P0172/000370 - Ross-Tech Wiki

    16556/P0172 - System Too Rich, Bank 1
    Possible Symptoms

    Irregular behaviour

    Possible Causes

    Fuel system
    Excessive fuel pressure
    Leaking or contaminated fuel injectors
    Leaking fuel pressure regulator
    Low fuel pressure or running out of fuel
    Vapor recovery system
    Air leaks after the MAF
    Vacuum leaks
    Improper seated engine oil dipstick
    Stuck EGR valve
    Oil overfill
    Cam timing
    Cylinder compression
    Exhaust leaks before or near HO2Ss.

    and this:

    http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18619/P2187/008583

    18619/P2187/008583 - Bank 1; System too Lean at Idle
    Possible Causes
    • Injectors leak/blocked
    • Air Intake Leak (after MAF)
    • Exhaust Leak
    Possible Solutions
    • Check Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
    • Check Injector(s)
    • Check Fuel Pump
    • Check Activated Charcoal Filter (EVAP) System Solenoid Valve 1 (N80)
    Special Notes
    • When found in the NAR 2.0T (BPY) check RVUTB: 01-09-03 or 2018919 for updated Crankcase Breather Valve
      • If the breather valve is faulty, full engine vacuum is typically found when removing the oil cap at idle.


    I’d check fuel cap o’ring, to make sure it’s sealing correctly, fuel pressure regulator, smoke test for vac leads, N80 and then injector clean...
     
  5. Crs

    Crs Registered User

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    Sorry Samuel I was just a bit frustrated with this fault as usually you find so much information on the internet or a forum search..
    However every search i've found people have it and never post what actually fixed this error - it seems quite uncommon too.

    I learnt a lot about fuel trims over the last couple of weeks - although still no expert it's nice to know how to diagnose certain things using that method.
    I checked te fuel pump duty cycle and it seems to be normal on idle (around 40% if i remember correctly).

    I'm starting to think maybe it's a leak after the MAF - where would be a good place to look for that? The pipe that connects to the turbo?
    On the bit you posted it mentions
    "When found in the NAR 2.0T (BPY) check RVUTB: 01-09-03 or 2018919 for updated Crankcase Breather Valve"

    I assume this isn't related to my engine?
     
    samuelh_888 likes this.
  6. Crs

    Crs Registered User

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    Seems leak in the turbo outlet pipe that connects to the charge pipe from the turbo.

    Where can I get a replacement for this? is it easy enough to DIY, or do you need to access it from under the car?

    I know it comes as muffler delete but i don't care enough to muffler delete if all i get is improved sound. :)
     
  7. samuelh_888

    samuelh_888 Registered User

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  8. Crs

    Crs Registered User

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    Thanks so much for those links!
    Do you have a part number for the green o'ring?

    Also is this easy to do DIY? Is it all within reach from top of the engine or am I going to need to get the car up on the ramps?
    I searched so much on yourtube for s3 8p turbo outlet and see no videos with this and all the turbo muffler delete stuff is for entirely different engines.. :(
     
  9. samuelh_888

    samuelh_888 Registered User

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    Search for MK5 golf which is mostly similar.

    You may be able to make the change off you back, it’s not too bad - you can see the pipe behind the drivers wheel.

    Part number is: 3C0145117F
     
  10. Crs

    Crs Registered User

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    Hi Samuel

    Forgive me if i'm wrong but was the MK6 golf not the same as the s3 8p face lift?

    Thanks for that part number :)
     
  11. samuelh_888

    samuelh_888 Registered User

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    The Mk5 & 6 and the S3’s were much the same - they were all PQ35 platform. But when searching for videos there doesn’t seem to be too much on the Audi from the US, it’s more VW based.
     
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  13. Crs

    Crs Registered User

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    Hello, just to update this I found the issue.
    Unfortuantely I ruled out a boost leak by during a vcds test of requested + actual boost pressure.
    Because I was getting the requested I *ASSUMED* it wasn't possible to have a boost leak...

    As this issue became worse under full load I should have known it must have been some boost leak. Weirdly I never heard anything...

    There you have it, if you get this fault it's most likely you have a boost leak...

    I'm no master mechanic but I was able to replace this pipe, the charge pipe and demuffler kit (i didn't want demuffler kit but it's the only way to buy this part after market) in the space of 3 hours using jack stands.

    Very happy to have the car performing as normal again. Thanks for your input guys!
     

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