<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
I forgot to mention that I will be using a Gen 1 TT 3.2 ECU BUT DARN THING WAS A DSG

Not sure that makes a difference other than you might need to flash an R32 (manual) map on instead... not something I have had to deal with as I am using Ignitron ECU...

1) I am also planning to use the S3 standard 14pin plug with the 3.2 engine side connecting to it. So I just want to make sure that I must take the speedo cables out my original harnness and tap it into the 14pin plug? I think there are pins in the way though, any ideas on that?

I am using the larger 81 pin loom from the S3 and the smaller 40pin loom from a 3.2 TT... please note however I am able to do this as I am using an Ignitron standalone ECU and not an ECU from an R32/TT 3.2 as I couldn't tell you if the std S3 ECU is compatible in so much as I don't think you can flash an R32 map on to it...

Ignitron supports using a feed from the ABS for the speedo signal but I decided to use the speedo drive from the box and ran the wires to the 14 pin plug

2) Pin 1 on the Fan control module is the the wire that controls the After run pump on both the 1.8t and the constant run pump on the 3.2.. I do not understand 100% what you meant when you said: " I just took the original pin for the S3 after run pump... only reason I re-pinned was down to the VR pump seemingly running a thicker gauge wire so I had a spare wire available so used it... the TT loom had the correct plug etc for the after run pump so I just left that as is... ". Does that mean nothing needs to be done for this pump or what should I do?

I just took the original pin for the S3 after run pump... only reason I re-pinned was down to the VR pump seemingly running a thicker gauge wire so I had a spare wire available so used it... the TT loom had the correct plug etc for the after run pump so I just left that as is...

As you are using an OE ECU you might find you need both looms to get it to work but tbh I couldn't say off hand what the differences are as I wired mine for use with the IECU...

Using IECU for a turbo build will give you more control, better protection and is much easier to tune plus you can go properly MAF less which is a great advantage on builds like these... it only supports one Lambda currently though so running NA means I have to be creative ( I currently have the lambda in the downpipe for cyl's 1,2,3) but ultimately it runs fine for now... if I was sticking to NA and using IECU I would however move the lambda to a more central point where it will see exhaust gas from all cylinders

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
So gearbox has arrived... sadly has the excessive play problem :(

Measured 2mm of play on the input shaft which is not the best... the seller has been contacted to see where we go from here but... the gearbox/clutch saga continues.... ffs!

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
It was 'test driven with no issues'... which is about as much use as 'my mate done this' replies on the interwebs...

The have organised a pickup to return... I have officially called it faulty (as they said no need to raise a return but I did anyway) and I have a concern that I won't get all my money back but at least thats (mostly) sorted... just need to find another box...

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Started the day with an aircon re-gas...
20190928-96dpi-IMG_20190928_094612.jpg

...however.... always a bl**dy however these days!... pressure seems to be holding ok but the air wasn't cold in the least... and then noticed the larger fan wasn't turning... which was followed by a familiar smell... the smell that means the magic blue smoke has escaped :(

On further inspection I could see that the aircon hose had moved and was pressing on the fan... disappointing... so will need to deal with that and potentially replace the compressor... which is fine as I have a couple of spare ones...

So parked her up on the naughty step again and took the A2 off for a jolly to Basingstoke to pick up this...
20190928-96dpi-IMG_20190928_155001.jpg

...yep... another gearbox lol... this one however is a DRP code so a proper box...
20190928-96dpi-IMG_20190928_155832.jpg


Early non black cap one and was a relief to grab the main shaft (fnarr) and not have it move in and out (again, fnarr)

I also managed to bag a set of 4-Motion PAS pipes... this is a full set which doesn't have the oil cooler the 20v uses but the plan is to use the bits I need to get the pipe out of the way from getting damaged and will use the cooler kit I bought too...
20190928-96dpi-IMG_20190928_155819.jpg


I plan to strip this box, to inspect it clean it all up and do the mods to the forks... I'll most likely paint it too if its ok

Fingers crossed this marks the end of my gearbox and clutch woes...

<tuffty/>
 

killfame

Registered User
What exactly you plan to do with the forks?Just strengthening the weak spots of the genuine ones or going for uprated ones and which manufacturer, if so?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Yes, i am totally familiar with your previous build up.
I just was curious if you plan to do or try something new.
Nah... It works, it's cheap :)

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Started off by draining the oil out of the box... oil came out nice tbh... was translucent and no shiney bits...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_103858.jpg


Split the case.... no lumps of metal, no obviously excessive wear marks so all looking good so far...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_132545.jpg


Removed the internals...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_132550.jpg


...cleaned the case halves...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_140239.jpg


..and the internals...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_143031.jpg


Next I modded the forks to address the common rivet failure problem (I did this on my 20v box so have a look on page 90 for more detail...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_151951.jpg


20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_155123.jpg


20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_162646.jpg


Fitted all the cleaned internals back to the bellhousing lubricating up with gearbox oil...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_163459.jpg


20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_163517.jpg


Applied sealant and bolted the halves together... and done :)
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_183545.jpg


Hopefully this marks the end of my gearbox and clutch issues... (once I get around to fitting it of course)

While I was getting the box I also managed to grab a set of 4-Mo PAS pipes as while the 20v ones do fit and 'work' there are clearance issue... I already had to extend the feed pipe to get it close to clearing the alternator pulley but its still not 100%... also the pressure pipe off the pump sits way too low and I have already caught it so its just a matter of time...

The pipes look a bit different...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_185032.jpg


20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_185037.jpg


I only need the feed hose from the reservoir and not the return pipe with the curly bit on the end as the 4-Mo doesn't have a fluid cooler loop like the 20v and I want to retain that especially once turbo'd... I have the PAS cooler to fit for that as you may recall the std 20v cooling pipe doesn't really fit nicely either lol...

I wire brushed the pressure pipe and while a little pitted its in decent condition so I will clean off the existing paint, blast it and repaint...
20190929-96dpi-IMG_20190929_190611.jpg


That should hopefully sort all the PAS pipes and give me decent cooling...

Next job is to replace the cooling fan (and sort out the aircon pipe to stop it happening again) then swap out the aircon compressor which I hope will sort the aircon issue... while I await a ramp so I can swap the box out I need to order another slave and more oil...

Joys of modding cars... hopefully now though anyone reading through this will be a little better informed than I was when I started this undertaking... (you are welcome lol)

<tuffty/>
 

Prawn

My other car is a MINI!!!!
Lovely stuff PT! your gearbox issues remind me that I'm not alone :laugh:

Hope that stock 4th holds out for you when it's turbo'd!
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Lovely stuff PT! your gearbox issues remind me that I'm not alone :laugh:

Hope that stock 4th holds out for you when it's turbo'd!
I rarely get out of third when in Mexico tbh but I am well aware of the limitations there... Once I have sorted out the rest of my gearboxes (have now been refunded for the last one) I will acquire another spare as a just in case...

As I am still running std rods (will have ARP bolts though) I will play with tuning so its less stressful on everything...

The first hurdle of course is getting the car actually drivable... to be clear the issues I am having are more related to worn parts, incorrectly supplied parts and minor issues related to engine swaps (aircon pipes, PAS pipes etc)...

This info is either pretty thin on the ground or ambiguous at best so hopefully I can at least answer a few of those doing this :)

This thread is by no means definitive and more my experience with how I have gone about it...

Modding cars beyond what is considered 'bolt on' is always a challenge but fitting a gearbox isn't a challenge I was expecting to deal with much like yourself... onwards and upwards though dude :)

<tuffty/>
 

Rainbird

Registered User
What sort of ballpark torque do the VR6 rods tend to take? Not sure if the rods themselves are much different to those fitted to the 1.8t (obviously there are 50% more of them and things should be a smidge smoother). Glad to hear you've sorted a refund on the dodgy box. PITA regardless though.

You say this isn't a definitive guide but given your signature attention to detail it should be a good reference for people if nothing else.

'bolt on' is always a challenge

Michael-Bolton-cropped.jpg
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
What sort of ballpark torque do the VR6 rods tend to take? Not sure if the rods themselves are much different to those fitted to the 1.8t (obviously there are 50% more of them and things should be a smidge smoother).

A bit different yeah... ironically not drilled either...
Screenshot 2019-10-02 at 13.27.40.png


I was running 155hp/110flbs per cylinder in the 20v... not sure what the power output is likely to be as this is the first VR setup I have done but it 'should' be in the region of 400-500hp so thats 66-83hp per cylinder so at my assumed rev limit of 7k in theory thats 50ftlbs to 62ftlbs per cylinder...

Assuming the math works out (who knows) then I am hoping stock rods should be good for that... the figures that get interweb'd about is the usual horsepower and not torque figures and seems to be anywhere from 400 to 600 hp...

I plan to be a bit more progressive rather than aggressive with the mapping so will see how that works out...

Glad to hear you've sorted a refund on the dodgy box. PITA regardless though.
Yeah, grateful that the process was fairly painless tbh.. they arranged pickup but have refunded via eCheque so have to wait a few days...

You say this isn't a definitive guide but given your signature attention to detail it should be a good reference for people if nothing else.
Thanks dude... appreciated :)



The wife is a bolton fan... should have been a sign really but we have put up with each other (well, she has put up with me I should say) for 30 years now lol

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
A little update....

Following on from the rather dramatic fan not turning incident I found that it was not turning as the aircon pipe was resting on it :(

So... I got the system degassed as I need to swap out the pump and took the front off to have a butchers at the fan...
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_102807.jpg

...the pump looks fun to do :
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_103953.jpg

...then I saw this.... epic fail :(
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_104121.jpg

Well that made the decision on removing the pump easy lol... will leave it there for now until I can work out what to do next with the pipe...

I then took the fan apart as it smells a little toastie... and yep... it was a little melty..
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_111520.jpg
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_111602.jpg

Unfortunately the spare fan I had was the wrong side... so had to order a new one... never ends lol....

To get the car down to my mates place for the de-gas I used a tactical piece of wood to move the hose out the way... so decided to make a better more permanent version...
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_125324.jpg


Siliconed and screwed the block on and....
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_131746.jpg


....seems to work...
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_132547.jpg
20191027-96dpi-IMG_20191027_132622.jpg


I guess I will need to find replacement air con pipes but of course this is the one that is one piece from the front to the back.... so that will be fun to fit (said no one ever!)

I will also see if I can find someone who might be able to replace the hose if I can get the car to them and take the front off (getting pretty good at this now lol)... I will probably go through winter with no aircon anyway now... not got the motivation to swap out the aircon pipework if thats what I end up having to to...

Once the car is 'mobile' again all thats left to do then is swap the new gearbox in... hopefully a ramp will be available soon as the winter months close in lol :)

<tuffty>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Why can't you just do away with the aircon? Or would that not solve the problem?
I want to retain the aircon.... I don't do heat very well and not a fan of opening the window (makes a mess of my interior lol) so while removing it would sort the pipe issue its not a solution for me...

The V6 pipework is a little different... there is no great rush to sort it though unless I can get the hose replaced without replacing the whole lot... I may look into getting hold of a 4-Mo setup or V6 TT maybe... will see what comes up over the coming months...

The existing 20v pipework will be fine with tweaking, I am just a bit annoyed with myself that I didn't notice it before...

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Probably a good idea, for when you shift down instead of up... I hear that happens inadvertently at your age sometimes :p
In fairness I am more likely to lose bladder control than anything else these days

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Got access to a ramp Saturday (thanks Bill)... took me a while to get motivated tbh as after a few attempts at trying to sort the gearbox/clutch situation had not gone well and lets face it, dropping a quattro box is not the most fun thing in the world to do..

As is the way of my luck so far the day started well... and by well I mean one of the subframe bolts pretty much fell out when I unscrewed it... seems that the subframe fixing has seen better days...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_105532.jpg
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_110600.jpg


...disappointing...!


...will deal with that later... so... here we are again... the R32 box is out...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_131217.jpg


The R32 box (left) and the 4-Motion DRP box (right)...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_142130.jpg

Took the slave out from the R32 box...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_210618.jpg


Brand new from the last time the box was off... and still getting damaged some how... so Alex and I took a little time to do measurements between boxes, plates, DMF's etc.... the only measurement I couldn't do at the time was to check flywheel face to block distance as all the other measurements seemed to be the same between a 20v and this setup...

We then looked at the plates themselves... there was evidence of the nose of the Sachs plate having touched the inside of slave which would explain the damage and cause of the slaves getting wasted... what was not easy to deduce is to why the nose would even be doing this in the first place as this setup is tried and tested in 20v's and our measuring suggests that everything should just work...

Alex grabbed an old plate that was kicking about the workshop and I noticed that there was a machined rebate in the nose that mine did not have.... I didn't take pics of the nose of mine sadly but here you can see the rebate on the old plate...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_181338.jpg

Took some measurements of the inside of the slave guide sleeve and it was around 0.5mm smaller than the nose of the Sachs plate so Alex put the plate on the lath and tuned a rebate into the nose of it... the plate now sits flush to the release bearing face (would never get that close in use due to the cover plate fingers and included a little wiggle room... it actually didn't require much material removing so won't compromise the integrity of the plate..

I didn't take any pics for some reason but tbh its not really a DIY mod as using anything other than a lathe could cause problems if not perfectly round...

With that done I refitted the clutch and then the 4-Mo box... I used the transfer box from the 4-Mo too as it kinda made sense to keep them together.. the R32 transfer box will be kept as a spare
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_161027.jpg



...and now for the job I have been putting off.... ideally I would weld a replacement captive 'nut' in but that would require pulling up the carpet and no doubt a little cutting the floor about to sort out so I went for a helicoil on the basis there was an M12 kit at the workshop and whatever I did would be better than no thread at all...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_161010.jpg

Drilled and tapped.... tapping was a little hard going... had to back out a few times to clean off the swarf as the usual cut and back motion was enough... was worried it would hang up and either snap the tap or literally pull the fresh threads back out!...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_170503.jpg


...however it went ok in the end and got a helicoil in...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_171158.jpg


Torqued up the subframe bolts to 100nm +90 (ish) and was a little more cautious on the helicoiled bolt but it took as much of the 90 degree as I felt comfortable doing and didn't feel like it was 'going soft' but time will tell of course and I plan to do something better next year (assuming it hasn't failed in the mean time)

All back together and filled with (yet more) gearbox oil... bled the clutch and all felt good...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_204207.jpg


Got the old girl re-dressed and backed her out the unit...
20191102-96dpi-IMG_20191102_205139.jpg



Had to get some fuel on the way home and popped to the Shell garage... they are doing roadworks on the roundabout there and they must have used some loose road filling material as it was dark and I rode over a trench crossing the road with a bang big enough that it opened my door!... I honestly thought I was going to find dents in the bonnet from front strut tops!!

Thankfully it seems there were no dents and the wheels still looked round! phew!..

I can report that I managed to drive home with no clutch issues at all... I even had a bit of a spirited burst changing up and down through the box with ease... who knew that could be a thing! lol..

Jury is still out... I need to put some miles on before I am 100% convinced but... I now believe the Sachs plate and 4-Mo DMF is most likely the cause of my problems so far in so much that (and this is informed speculation) the 4-Mo DMF sits the clutch plate a little further away from the engine (closer to the box/slave) and the nose of the Sachs plate while not an issue on the 20v application its designed for is just long enough that it interferes with the slave...

A std clutch plate does not protrude like the Sachs plate does so would not be an issue if using a std friction disc... the machining of the nose appears to have fixed the issue here and the R32 gearbox issue with the input shaft play was a bit of a red herring... there is more in/out play than there should be but its no different to any of the other boxes I have since looked at...

Hopefully the clutch is sorted out now, I am not really too surprised that I needed to do a little extra work to get all the clutch parts to work... its not the first time that a mix and match of parts needed fettling to work but at least I now know (and of course so do you)

Time to actually drive the car and I need to get a front alignment done now the subframe is not due to be off (hopefully) anytime soon...

Last main part of the turbo conversion should be sorted soon... ... I was going to use the R36 shells that everyone tends to use but ACL do coated big end bearings so will probably go with those...

There are a few other little things to sort out like downpipe bends and other stuff but these are all in hand...

I need to get the hot side separated on my GT35 so I can clock it correctly but this is proving a little tricky as its pretty much holding in there... I don't want to apply loads of heat in case I heat it up in the wrong place and nuke the bearing packs... all jobs for the winter though :)

<tuffty/>
 

LostEnigma

Registered User
Glad she is finally coming together sir!

So I am sitting at my next stand still.

Using a BHE motor + DRP box + MK5 R32 DMF, clutch and pressure plate. That darn spacer plate between the box and motor is needed or the pressure plate squeezes up against the face inside the box and everything locks up.

3 week order cause South Africa sucks like that.. Wrong parts arrive cause South Africa sucks like that.. 2 Week "flash order" for the correct parts cause South Africa sucks like that..
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
I feel your pain dude...

I have a bunch of parts I can sell to get some money back now at least... did debate on keeping the R32 box as a spare but if I do manage to nuke the DRP I might even consider looking at a DQ500 just because lol...

I can report that I have been driving the car a bit this week... so far all is good with the clutch... I'd be tempted to use two plates maybe but turning the clutch plate seems to have sorted things out for now...

<tuffty/>
 

IPG

Registered User
I have just played catch ups on your VR6 turned into gearbox woes thread.

Looks like you're at the home run now!!! Not sure why i got so lucky with how generally "smoothly" my setup went but i just remember that everyone i asked said use the FW & clutch kit for that gen. gearbox. So since i was using the DRP/ 4mo box (not R32 mk4 one) that's the FW/clutch kit i went for.

re: Shredded A/C line - sorry i should've warned you on that one! Mine did the same and i just zip tied it away from the fan edge onto the dipstick tube.

Almost there!

How's it feel to drive?
 

Tj 0785

Registered User
VCDS Map User
Silver Supporter
Glad she is finally coming together sir!

So I am sitting at my next stand still.

Using a BHE motor + DRP box + MK5 R32 DMF, clutch and pressure plate. That darn spacer plate between the box and motor is needed or the pressure plate squeezes up against the face inside the box and everything locks up.

3 week order cause South Africa sucks like that.. Wrong parts arrive cause South Africa sucks like that.. 2 Week "flash order" for the correct parts cause South Africa sucks like that..
how come you decided to use the mk5 dmf,clucth and pressure plate? Are you going turbo aswell?
 
Last edited:

Tj 0785

Registered User
VCDS Map User
Silver Supporter
I feel your pain dude...

I have a bunch of parts I can sell to get some money back now at least... did debate on keeping the R32 box as a spare but if I do manage to nuke the DRP I might even consider looking at a DQ500 just because lol...

I can report that I have been driving the car a bit this week... so far all is good with the clutch... I'd be tempted to use two plates maybe but turning the clutch plate seems to have sorted things out for now...

<tuffty/>
Seeing the trouble your have I’m kinda glad I’ve been dragging my heels , nice to see it all come together, I need to really get a move on with it, it’s just depressing having the car sat there knowing I’ve got the all the gear,
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
I have just played catch ups on your VR6 turned into gearbox woes thread.

Looks like you're at the home run now!!! Not sure why i got so lucky with how generally "smoothly" my setup went but i just remember that everyone i asked said use the FW & clutch kit for that gen. gearbox. So since i was using the DRP/ 4mo box (not R32 mk4 one) that's the FW/clutch kit i went for.

If I had fitted a std clutch plate it would have been fine... it was just that the Sachs sticks out a bit and I think the VR DMF moves the plate a little closer... not an issue for a std style plate...

re: Shredded A/C line - sorry i should've warned you on that one! Mine did the same and i just zip tied it away from the fan edge onto the dipstick tube.

B@stard! ;)

Almost there!

How's it feel to drive?

Slow :)

<tuffty/>
 
If you want to free up any funds @<tuffty/> I'd take one of those climate controls for the double din set up if you plan on selling it.
You know the saying if you dont ask you don't get.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
If you want to free up any funds @<tuffty/> I'd take one of those climate controls for the double din set up if you plan on selling it.
You know the saying if you dont ask you don't get.
Lol... I had actually forgotten about those... Drop me a pm... I'll have a look for them and see what I can sort out..

I'll stick a classified in over the weekend for the other stuff :)

<tuffty/>
 
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