Facelift MPG S3 2017

No point in putting 99 in a standard S3 in my opinion as it's designed to run on a veriaty of fuel, where as my 8p was mappped to run on 99 and if ever I got caught short and had to put 95/97 in it was lathargic
Respectfully, I disagree. If ever an engine was in need of a fuel with an enhanced level of resistance to detonation in extreme conditions, it was an engine squeezing 155PS out each single litre of capacity.

"Designed to run on..." should more accuratley be expressed as "can tolerate running on..." when it comes to the fuels it can use. Yes, it'll run on low quality fuels, as will many cars in this age of high power electronic management, but presumably you didn't buy a 300+hp hatch just because it looked nicer than the 200hp version, so why would you choose to nobble it by feeding it cheapskate fuels?
 
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Respectfully, I disagree. If ever an engine was in need of a fuel with an enhanced level of resistance to detonation in extreme conditions, it was an engine squeezing 155PS out each single litre of capacity.

"Designed to run on..." should more accuratley be expressed as "can tolerate running on..." when it comes to the fuels it can use. Yes, it'll run on low quality fuels, as will many cars in this age of high power electronic management, but presumably you didn't buy a 300+hp hatch just because it looked nicer than the 200hp version, so why would you choose to nobble it by feeding it cheapskate fuels?
It respect you will see little to none at all power gain wise or running wise difference between the two fuels, it's to cope with the difference in fuel types across Europe, etc, Ireland iv heard mostly sells 95-97? Correct if wrong get Germany is something like 102 standard. It is fine on a wide range.
 
Respectfully, I disagree. If ever an engine was in need of a fuel with an enhanced level of resistance to detonation in extreme conditions, it was an engine squeezing 155PS out each single litre of capacity.

"Designed to run on..." should more accuratley be expressed as "can tolerate running on..." when it comes to the fuels it can use. Yes, it'll run on low quality fuels, as will many cars in this age of high power electronic management, but presumably you didn't buy a 300+hp hatch just because it looked nicer than the 200hp version, so why would you choose to nobble it by feeding it cheapskate fuels?
And 300bhp is hardly on the limit of high performance, yes 99 will be a little cleaner etc but honestly you aren't going to notice a difference in performance on a stock car
 
It respect you will see little to none at all power gain wise or running wise difference between the two fuels, it's to cope with the difference in fuel types across Europe, etc, Ireland iv heard mostly sells 95-97? Correct if wrong get Germany is something like 102 standard. It is fine on a wide range.

Again, respectfully, I disagree.

Yes the engine can tolerate different fuel qualities, but you cannot expect it to operate at peak efficiency and power on 'bad' fuel compared to 'good' fuel.

The way in which an internal combustion engine "copes" is to ****** ignition when the ECU detects premature uncontrolled combustion occurring within the combustion chamber. When you ****** ignition timing, or implement any other coping mechanism, you lose efficiency and therefore you lose power.

Whilst fuels with higher octane ratings don't contain any more energy in them per unit volume, they do have a higher auto ignition temperature, and so are very much less susceptible to premature uncontrolled ignition.

The risk of this uncontrolled ignition goes up with increasing cyclinder temperatures during the compression phase. The ultimate temperature in the cylinder is directly coupled to the pressure achieved within the cyclinder (Gay-Lussac) and the temperature of the air fuel mix at the beginning of the compression stroke. If the temperature goes higher than the auto ignition temperature of the fuel, we will see premature explosive combustion, the ECU will ****** the ignition and we will lose power.

The S3 engine runs the sort of static compression ratio that only a few years ago would have been considered normal for a naturally aspirated engine. This 9.3:1 static compression ratio is accompanied by a 1.2 Bar of boost pressure, again, a level that is markedly higher than turbocharged engines of only a few years ago. The net result is an effective compression ratio of 20.3:1. A compression ignition engine will happily run at very high efficiency with significantly less compression than this, but we're asking standard pump petrol to wait until after we've achieved peak temperatures and pressures before we spark ignite it, and to please not auto ignite on the way there.

Thermodynamically and chemically that's asking the impossible, especially when you factor in high ambient temperatures or high altitude running. Yes, direct injection mitigates some of the issue, but were still seeing injection occurring some time before TDC on the compression stroke, so it doesn't remove the problem, and still doesn't allow sufficient time for the charge to fully stratify and be ignited by the spark, rather than be injected and immediately explode.

The use of high octane fuels in this engine will improve both power and efficiency, simply because the engine can wait until the optimum time to ignite the fuel mix, rather than having to ignite it early to avoid it exploding and damaging the pistons. Whether it's to a degree that you as a driver can easily detect or not may be debatable, after all, no one here can tell the difference between the 300ps and 310ps power units, but the physics behind it are by now fairly well established.

And 300bhp is hardly on the limit of high performance, yes 99 will be a little cleaner etc but honestly you aren't going to notice a difference in performance on a stock car

306bhp from 2 litres in a family hatchback with long service intervals and a warranty is something you take for granted far to easily. 153bhp/litre is extraordinary. Higher than a current 911 turbo.

Even 25 years ago, a 300hp engine in any form was something pretty amazing, but squeezing that much power from only 2 litres was next to impossible with any degree of assured reliability. A 300hp cosworth was an evil thing with all the subtlety in its power delivery of a brick through a window. Even in standard form with only 102bhp/litre, it wasn't exactly the sort of thing your granny could drive.

Modern NA stuff like the Lamborghini Huracan are 'only' 117hp/litre, the R8 only manages 100bhp/litre, so in terms of fuel requirements, those engines may be slightly less fussy when it comes to fuel. The now legendary Porsche 959 (the Veyron of the 1980's) had a specific power output of 155bhp/litre, almost exactly the same as an S3.

Michael Schumacher won his first F1 drivers championship with 185bhp/litre, and even now, the very latest Ferrari 488 is only pushing 171bhp/litre.

As I said before, if any engine was in need of a fuel with an enhanced level of resistance to detonation, its this one.
 
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:scared2::wtf:

That all went way over my head lol
 
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Again, respectfully, I disagree.

Yes the engine can tolerate different fuel qualities, but you cannot expect it to operate at peak efficiency and power on 'bad' fuel compared to 'good' fuel.

The way in which an internal combustion engine "copes" is to ****** ignition when the ECU detects premature uncontrolled combustion occurring within the combustion chamber. When you ****** ignition timing, or implement any other coping mechanism, you lose efficiency and therefore you lose power.

Whilst fuels with higher octane ratings don't contain any more energy in them per unit volume, they do have a higher auto ignition temperature, and so are very much less susceptible to premature uncontrolled ignition.

The risk of this uncontrolled ignition goes up with increasing cyclinder temperatures during the compression phase. The ultimate temperature in the cylinder is directly coupled to the pressure achieved within the cyclinder (Gay-Lussac) and the temperature of the air fuel mix at the beginning of the compression stroke. If the temperature goes higher than the auto ignition temperature of the fuel, we will see premature explosive combustion, the ECU will ****** the ignition and we will lose power.

The S3 engine runs the sort of static compression ratio that only a few years ago would have been considered normal for a naturally aspirated engine. This 9.3:1 static compression ratio is accompanied by a 1.2 Bar of boost pressure, again, a level that is markedly higher than turbocharged engines of only a few years ago. The net result is an effective compression ratio of 20.3:1. A compression ignition engine will happily run at very high efficiency with significantly less compression than this, but we're asking standard pump petrol to wait until after we've achieved peak temperatures and pressures before we spark ignite it, and to please not auto ignite on the way there.

Thermodynamically and chemically that's asking the impossible, especially when you factor in high ambient temperatures or high altitude running. Yes, direct injection mitigates some of the issue, but were still seeing injection occurring some time before TDC on the compression stroke, so it doesn't remove the problem, and still doesn't allow sufficient time for the charge to fully stratify and be ignited by the spark, rather than be injected and immediately explode.

The use of high octane fuels in this engine will improve both power and efficiency, simply because the engine can wait until the optimum time to ignite the fuel mix, rather than having to ignite it early to avoid it exploding and damaging the pistons. Whether it's to a degree that you as a driver can easily detect or not may be debatable, after all, no one here can tell the difference between the 300ps and 310ps power units, but the physics behind it are by now fairly well established.



306bhp from 2 litres in a family hatchback with long service intervals and a warranty is something you take for granted far to easily. 153bhp/litre is extraordinary. Higher than a current 911 turbo.

Even 25 years ago, a 300hp engine in any form was something pretty amazing, but squeezing that much power from only 2 litres was next to impossible with any degree of assured reliability. A 300hp cosworth was an evil thing with all the subtlety in its power delivery of a brick through a window. Even in standard form with only 102bhp/litre, it wasn't exactly the sort of thing your granny could drive.

Modern NA stuff like the Lamborghini Huracan are 'only' 117hp/litre, the R8 only manages 100bhp/litre, so in terms of fuel requirements, those engines may be slightly less fussy when it comes to fuel. The now legendary Porsche 959 (the Veyron of the 1980's) had a specific power output of 155bhp/litre, almost exactly the same as an S3.

Michael Schumacher won his first F1 drivers championship with 185bhp/litre, and even now, the very latest Ferrari 488 is only pushing 171bhp/litre.

As I said before, if any engine was in need of a fuel with an enhanced level of resistance to detonation, its this one.
Again I understand what you are saying I was just giving a brief reason. all I was saying is if you didn't want to put 99 in the car it's not going to blow up or suddenly not work, yes 99 is a cleaner fuel and will benifit the car, it's all I run my tuned S3 on. Also a few years ago I think it was 5th gear that did a test on the dyno with a number of different fuels different ron and different companies and there was maybe 5bhp between them all and that was on a standard golf GTI.

And as for all the info you wrote I agree with, btw if I ever have to study or read thermodynamics again in my life I may top myself had enough of that when studying HND in engineering
 
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btw if I ever have to study or read thermodynamics again in my life I may top myself had enough of that when studying HND in engineering

You're a lucky man. It's easily the most annoying part of my job. And even after 20 odd years of daily use I still struggle to remember which one is which when it comes to entropy and enthalpy.
 
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You're a lucky man. It's easily the most annoying part of my job. And even after 20 odd years of daily use I still struggle to remember which one is which when it comes to entropy and enthalpy.

Entropy and Enthalpy brings back bad memories of my engineering degree. I did an MEng in Electronic Engineering but we had to study all branches of engineering for the first two years!
 
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Thought I'd dig up this thread and add my 2p.

As I may have mentioned in a couple of other posts recently, I've come from an S3 8P 3-door manual, that I owned for 10 years.

I have to say I think I was a little "taken in" by Audi's quoted fuel economy figures for the S3 8V. Yep, I know, I know, you can never believe manufacturers quoted figures and what with the VW/Audi emissions scandal, a pretty hefty pinch-of-salt also needs to be taken. So I knew, the quoted urban figure of 34.4mpg for a Sportback S3 with S-Tronic was going to be a bit of a joke. But I expected the car to be there or thereabouts, 30 maybe? 28?

Also in my naivety, I thought, "surely after 10 years of engine development (from the S3 8P 2.0T motor) that the economy is going to be pretty decent, plus with start/top technology too..."

How wrong I was. I mainly drive urban roads to and from work, 10 miles each way. And this modern car, packed with new technology, only delivers........ 22 mpg. That is driving calmly (but fairly progressive, not blasting about) in either manual or S mode. In Economy or D mode, I can eek it out to maybe 23-24 mpg - but the compromise is, you feel like you are driving like a pensioner and going backwards.

In contrast the S3 8P used to deliver between 21-23 mpg on my urban drive, depending on how I drove it. So an average of about 22 mpg - exactly the same as my S3 8V!

So where's the 10 years of engine development gone? OK an extra 50bhp, but a chipped S3 8P would have had over 310 bhp and probably similar fuel economy. So what have VW/Audi been doing?!

I know this is a performance car, but I did expect the urban economy to be a little bit better (I sound so old saying that!), without needing to resort to Economy or old-mans-gear-change mode (i.e D gearbox) to squeeze out an extra 2-3 mpg, which still doesn't come close to Audi's quoted figure.

Shell will continue to have a very frequent customer! :)
 
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Thought I'd dig up this thread and add my 2p.

As I may have mentioned in a couple of other posts recently, I've come from an S3 8P 3-door manual, that I owned for 10 years.

I have to say I think I was a little "taken in" by Audi's quoted fuel economy figures for the S3 8V. Yep, I know, I know, you can never believe manufacturers quoted figures and what with the VW/Audi emissions scandal, a pretty hefty pinch-of-salt also needs to be taken. So I knew, the quoted urban figure of 34.4mpg for a Sportback S3 with S-Tronic was going to be a bit of a joke. But I expected the car to be there or thereabouts, 30 maybe? 28?

Also in my naivety, I thought, "surely after 10 years of engine development (from the S3 8P 2.0T motor) that the economy is going to be pretty decent, plus with start/top technology too..."

How wrong I was. I mainly drive urban roads to and from work, 10 miles each way. And this modern car, packed with new technology, only delivers........ 22 mpg. That is driving calmly (but fairly progressive, not blasting about) in either manual or S mode. In Economy or D mode, I can eek it out to maybe 23-24 mpg - but the compromise is, you feel like you are driving like a pensioner and going backwards.

In contrast the S3 8P used to deliver between 21-23 mpg on my urban drive, depending on how I drove it. So an average of about 22 mpg - exactly the same as my S3 8V!

So where's the 10 years of engine development gone? OK an extra 50bhp, but a chipped S3 8P would have had over 310 bhp and probably similar fuel economy. So what have VW/Audi been doing?!

I know this is a performance car, but I did expect the urban economy to be a little bit better (I sound so old saying that!), without needing to resort to Economy or old-mans-gear-change mode (i.e D gearbox) to squeeze out an extra 2-3 mpg, which still doesn't come close to Audi's quoted figure.

Shell will continue to have a very frequent customer! :)


You will never get close to the mpg numbers quoted however they are supposed to be representative so you can compare cars and get similar gains. So, assuming you got 21mpg real economy in the 8P and using Audi's quoted 25.2 for the 8P and 34.4 for the 8V. You should be able to get 21 * 34.4 / 25.2 which is 28.7 mpg.

I get around 25 urban. Perhaps yours is still running in? Or perhaps you are using an average from the 8P with different weather conditions. Remember, cold, damp conditions affect the performance/economy of an engine especially those that are turbocharged.

On the other hand, what Audi have done in a single generation (or a generation and a half if you consider the FL which I don't really) is to deliver a car which is approximately 20% faster 0-60 and still deliver a (albeit small) boost in economy. Remember the new car is also a tad heavier for reasons ;-)
 
Best I've had is 38mpg on a 60 mile trip in efficiency mode. Mostly motorways, tiny little bit of city traffic at the beginning.

Last 400 miles have averaged 28mpg and that is probably a mix of comfort, some motorways and some dynamic. Not really pushing her yet though as still "running in" :blahblah1:

Making a conscious decision to avoid looking at mpg and start concentrating on smiles per miles which is what a car like this is all about :D
 
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My old 8p was actually better on fuel once at stage2+ then it was standard unless booting it ibvs I averaged about 23 and in my facelift 8v s3 I'm getting 22 although on a run the other day I was getting 43mpg!
 
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I'm 3,000 in and averaging 33mpg, Mostly down to my m5 commute from chelt to Bristol and back. I'm amazed by the efficiency of the S3 just terribly disappointed by the handling.
 
I'm 3,000 in and averaging 33mpg, Mostly down to my m5 commute from chelt to Bristol and back. I'm amazed by the efficiency of the S3 just terribly disappointed by the handling.
No mag ride fella ?
 
After about 6000 miles I've seen a SLIGHT improvement! Averaging around 25mpg on regular 95 octane but I can get 28 on similar driving using super unleaded (idk if its worth an extra 10p a litre)

But I was shocked to average 42 on a trip to Dublin in E mode

On a side note has anyone else noticed a whine when in 7th gear with cruise control set to 70mpg? It disappears when i set it at 60 or 80 had me worried

I hate the comfort steering setting! Feels far too slack.... ive set individual to everything in comfort bar steering for long trips I just leave it in dynamic day to day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Can you let me know when I'm absolved of my sins? :slapped:
Alright, you can come back out and play now, just remember to play nicely, and we'll have no more of those naughty words, ok? ;)
 
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You will never get close to the mpg numbers quoted however they are supposed to be representative so you can compare cars and get similar gains. So, assuming you got 21mpg real economy in the 8P and using Audi's quoted 25.2 for the 8P and 34.4 for the 8V. You should be able to get 21 * 34.4 / 25.2 which is 28.7 mpg.

I get around 25 urban. Perhaps yours is still running in? Or perhaps you are using an average from the 8P with different weather conditions. Remember, cold, damp conditions affect the performance/economy of an engine especially those that are turbocharged.

On the other hand, what Audi have done in a single generation (or a generation and a half if you consider the FL which I don't really) is to deliver a car which is approximately 20% faster 0-60 and still deliver a (albeit small) boost in economy. Remember the new car is also a tad heavier for reasons ;-)

Thanks Allanmb.

You might have the figures for the later model S3 8P. The manufacturers Urban figure for a 06/07 S3 8P was 22.8mpg. So I was getting there or thereabouts with the S3 8P.

I think whets happening is manufacturers are grossly inflating the fuel economy figures, more than perhaps they used to, http://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/fuels-environment/official-fuel-consumption-figures

The car should be run in, it has 3700 miles on the clock now. But because its a 3-month old ex-demo car, I cant vouch for what fuel the dealership would have used. Probably the cheapest stuff they could find. But now, it will only ever have V-Power, so hopefully it will clean the engine a little and improve efficiency and performance.

But looking at the posts above, it sounds like the fuel efficiency of this S3 8V is more skewed/achievable doing longer trips.

I still don't believe the Audi figure of 34.4 mpg is achievable on an Urban run. The UK Gov testing page (visit carfueldata.direct.gov.uk search for the car etc.) gives the Urban as 33.2 mpg. I cant see how that can be achieved either! Have a read of the Urban cycle test here; http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/fcb/the-fuel-consumption-testing-scheme.asp.

It probably sounds like this is a big issue for me, it isn't, its just a bit disappointing really. The manufacturers figures are not true to real-life and that needs to change.

Cheers

AL
 
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No mag ride fella ?
Nope didn't tick that box and definitely regret not doing so. I had a TT ultra before the S3 and that was on standard s line suspension and handled nicely, assumed the S3 would be just as good if not better, how wrong I was.....

I love the S3 in most ways other than handling.
 
Thanks Allanmb.

You might have the figures for the later model S3 8P. The manufacturers Urban figure for a 06/07 S3 8P was 22.8mpg. So I was getting there or thereabouts with the S3 8P.

I think whets happening is manufacturers are grossly inflating the fuel economy figures, more than perhaps they used to, http://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/fuels-environment/official-fuel-consumption-figures

The car should be run in, it has 3700 miles on the clock now. But because its a 3-month old ex-demo car, I cant vouch for what fuel the dealership would have used. Probably the cheapest stuff they could find. But now, it will only ever have V-Power, so hopefully it will clean the engine a little and improve efficiency and performance.

But looking at the posts above, it sounds like the fuel efficiency of this S3 8V is more skewed/achievable doing longer trips.

I still don't believe the Audi figure of 34.4 mpg is achievable on an Urban run. The UK Gov testing page (visit carfueldata.direct.gov.uk search for the car etc.) gives the Urban as 33.2 mpg. I cant see how that can be achieved either! Have a read of the Urban cycle test here; http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/fcb/the-fuel-consumption-testing-scheme.asp.

It probably sounds like this is a big issue for me, it isn't, its just a bit disappointing really. The manufacturers figures are not true to real-life and that needs to change.

Cheers

AL

On motorway runs between 70/80 mine is doing 35 - 40 mpg which I'm amazed by, town driving is more like 20 mpg. Overall my average is 33mpg, I mostly drive it individual mode which engine set to auto, Quattro/steering in auto and exhaust dynamic.
 
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Pretty decent when it wasn't to be.

3F6E1C63-715F-4E51-99C4-5EFB6A476287.jpg
 
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