More power please

monty77

Registered User
Lot of time on my hands - away on business and bored /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

What are the current upgrade options for the S3 beyond a chip?

So far I've read about:

MTM - too rich for my blood and not after silly power
Jabba - not many S3s running the IHI so a little nervous about this one
Hybrid K04 - Some people say they're great, others that it's not worth the money.

..keep reading that the manifold is the restriction, turbo dynamics keep threatening one that'll fit but nothing is forthcoming.

The S3/TT have been around for a long time now, so why the lack of options?

Old car (Fiat coupe turbo) is far rarer but the tuning options were much better.

I'm after ~300BHP/300lbft .. has to be reliable (daily driver)

Cheers!
Adam
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
The IHI is a reliable solution. The reason there are very few floating about is because Jabba have not yet made a downpipe for 4wd models so its all custom made by whoever fits it (AmD have done some S3's). Basically, the S3 engine is no different to any other 1.8T (Basically! the rods, pistons .etc .etc are different) so nothing to worry about there. You should expect about 330bhp adn 330lb.ft

Rich
 

nervus

Registered User
I was told from jabba that the manifold was really restrictive on the S3 too. There was one on the bench there and it did look as though it could benefit from a bit of machining/porting etc but i dont think that would yield much power.

I've heard a KO4 can deliver upto ~300hp so maybe an enlarged manifold is the key? Rich will know, hint /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif(enlighten me again)
Also i've read turbos with the turbine blades clipped, what does this acheive?

I too want to see around 300/300 but im bucked if im spending £6000.
 

nervus

Registered User
Have you had your car rollered monty? I was wondering how you find the REVO map and what real proven power it gives???

I know alot of people claim 270 - 280 is unachievable just from a map because they haven't seen it on their cars but i know of an S3 which has recorded an average on three independent rollers of 281hp and all it has had done is a REVO map DV and Samco TIP, so they cant all be bull results!

 

bigshout

Registered User
281bhp from a chip on average seem way to over optomistic. I think an average of 255bhp would be more the norm. The owner of the S3 must have had some other things done to his car to get a result like this. This would mean he's not too far of the 300bhp result Monty is after.
 

monty77

Registered User
Going on the rollers in Feb, very doubtful it'll get anywhere near 280BHP. I think most chips are in the 260-265region .. anyone know why the LCR lot get more from theirs? Haldex losses on the rollers or something else?

Cheers,
Adam
 

nervus

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
Bigshout said:
281bhp from a chip on average seem way to over optomistic. I think an average of 255bhp would be more the norm. The owner of the S3 must have had some other things done to his car to get a result like this. This would mean he's not too far of the 300bhp result Monty is after.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what i was thinking as most on here claim 260-ish and the REVO is a generic program. The car is an early one (v reg) from my area and the guy hasn't owned from new but hes adament thats the only mods. The car was chipped when he got it and he didn't believe the plots himself so got it re done and i've even seen the plot recording 283hp. Its actually recorded as 283cv which im lead to believe is bhp??? it also has 110k miles too!
 

Grant

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
nervus said:
Have you had your car rollered monty? I was wondering how you find the REVO map and what real proven power it gives???

I know alot of people claim 270 - 280 is unachievable just from a map because they haven't seen it on their cars but i know of an S3 which has recorded an average on three independent rollers of 281hp and all it has had done is a REVO map DV and Samco TIP, so they cant all be bull results!



[/ QUOTE ]
281bhp from just a remap... that must be a really agressive remap... must be about 1.8bar boost!
 

Grant

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
monty77 said:
Hybrid K04 - Some people say they're great, others that it's not worth the money.


[/ QUOTE ]
I spoke to Craig @ Turbo Dynamics and he said that modifying the existing K04 turbo would possibly produce an extra 20-30bhp, but your main problem is the manifold... it wouldn't last long because it's so restrictive.

Modifying the turbo cost from £395 upwards... all depending on the condition. Turnaround is 2 days.
 

Ess_Three

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
Imola S3 said:
281bhp from just a remap... that must be a really agressive remap... must be about 1.8bar boost!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are getting a bit confused Grant..
Peak boost only affects peak torque.
1.8 bar peak boost will equate to about 320-325 lb-ft...1.85 roughly 325-330 and so on...

Peak power is dependant on air flow...the K04 can't move enough air...so the pressure at peak power is about 1.2 ish bar.

You can map a K04 to produce 1.2 bar from peak torque to peak power...only have 230-240 lb-ft of torque and still have over 270BHP...with a flat torque 'curve'
But you can't get a car peaking at 1.8 bar at peak torque, to hold 1.8 bar at peak power...it just can't move ebough air.

Cranking up the boost only really adds torque low down...you need to add more ignition advance or add a bigger turbo to get more power at peak power.
 

Grant

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
monty77 said:
I know it's frowned upon and not a permanent power solution but what about NOS? I'm talking about a professional kit with controller naturally.

I spend most of my weekly commute stuck in traffic, no point having 300BHP sitting at 20mph anyway but at the weekends and coming home after traffic has cleared it'd be nice to flick a switch and have another 50BHP on tap.

Opinions?
A

[/ QUOTE ]
With most NOS kits, you are recommended to fit a progressive controller which will gradually and smoothly deliver your extra power rather than the "Fast and the Furious" style where you hit a button and shoot back into your seat!

From what I remember, Caney on the TT Forum runs a 100 shot of NOS in his TT with no problems.

Cost for a professionally installed NOS kit is about £1k.

http://www.noswizard.com/
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
Imola S3 said:
[ QUOTE ]
monty77 said:
I know it's frowned upon and not a permanent power solution but what about NOS? I'm talking about a professional kit with controller naturally.

I spend most of my weekly commute stuck in traffic, no point having 300BHP sitting at 20mph anyway but at the weekends and coming home after traffic has cleared it'd be nice to flick a switch and have another 50BHP on tap.

Opinions?
A

[/ QUOTE ]
With most NOS kits, you are recommended to fit a progressive controller which will gradually and smoothly deliver your extra power rather than the "Fast and the Furious" style where you hit a button and shoot back into your seat!

From what I remember, Caney on the TT Forum runs a 100 shot of NOS in his TT with no problems.

Cost for a professionally installed NOS kit is about £1k.

http://www.noswizard.com/

[/ QUOTE ]

hes close to 400bhp with 125bhp progressive NOS.
 

monty77

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
Imola S3 said:
[ QUOTE ]
monty77 said:
Hybrid K04 - Some people say they're great, others that it's not worth the money.


[/ QUOTE ]
I spoke to Craig @ Turbo Dynamics and he said that modifying the existing K04 turbo would possibly produce an extra 20-30bhp, but your main problem is the manifold... it wouldn't last long because it's so restrictive.

Modifying the turbo cost from £395 upwards... all depending on the condition. Turnaround is 2 days.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting ... wonder if their TT manifold is anywhere near ready....could be a decent combo for those not wanting to spend silly amounts of cash.

A
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
nervus said:
So is a realworld 281bhp possible with a standard KO4? and can anyone confirm what the unit CV mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

Debatable!
 

Markb

Registered User
Makes for interesting reading this /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

If I don't get my Evo 7 in a few years I will defo consider going down the big cash/big power route.

I just need someone to take me out in theirs and show me how slow mine is compared to theirs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 

Markb

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
RichA3Turbo said:
If you down this way /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

Goes on Multimap and works out how far away it is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

Nice one though I might take you up on that in the future.
 

jojo

Looking for Boost!
Staff member
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
Markb said:
[ QUOTE ]
RichA3Turbo said:
If you down this way /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

Goes on Multimap and works out how far away it is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

Nice one though I might take you up on that in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easier to ask Rich when he's next in Brum./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
jojo said:
[ QUOTE ]
Markb said:
[ QUOTE ]
RichA3Turbo said:
If you down this way /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

Goes on Multimap and works out how far away it is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

Nice one though I might take you up on that in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easier to ask Rich when he's next in Brum./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Tis a good point!
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
GolfTTish said:
[ QUOTE ]
RichA3Turbo said:
Wilko is running the same config as mine but on a small port head, and he has 330lb.ft,
Rich

[/ QUOTE ]


Not for much longer Rich.
I've got a brand new large port head being ported and polished at the moment with single piece valves to be fitted to it. Pauter rods and 9.0:1 tt pistons going in at the same time, along with the bigger exhaust housing on the turbo.
I'm going to run 21psi to the limiter if the turbo will hold it, plus push the limiter up a bit if I can.

If the turbo runs out of airflow, then it's VF22 time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My god John... Got bored of it already? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

That is going to be amazing when its done! We will have to meet. Im looking at the VF-22 for the next one along with everything (minus the head) that you are doing. Let me know how it goes

Rich
 

GolfTTish

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
RichA3Turbo said:

My god John... Got bored of it already? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

No not bored, just got the offer of the head, and it spiraled out of control to a point where I just said '***k it, I might as well go for it.'

It'll be late feb early march before it's mechanically complete, and then I've got to run it in for a 1000 miles or so, so hopefully mid march, I can wind the boost up and see what happens.

I just want it ready for the GTI festival and Inters /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
GolfTTish said:
[ QUOTE ]
RichA3Turbo said:

My god John... Got bored of it already? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

No not bored, just got the offer of the head, and it spiraled out of control to a point where I just said '***k it, I might as well go for it.'

It'll be late feb early march before it's mechanically complete, and then I've got to run it in for a 1000 miles or so, so hopefully mid march, I can wind the boost up and see what happens.

I just want it ready for the GTI festival and Inters /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent! Well i certainly aint racing you at inters! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
 

AndybS3

Registered User
What would be the pitfalls of making up an adapter plate to fit a B/T onto the standard manifold? granted the manifold would eventually crack but should be cheap and easy enough to replace, what other problems could arise?
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
Andy bS3 said:
What would be the pitfalls of making up an adapter plate to fit a B/T onto the standard manifold? granted the manifold would eventually crack but should be cheap and easy enough to replace, what other problems could arise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy,

You could always get a stainles tubular manifold custom made? This way you can use any turbo you want.The problem with the S3 manifold is that its too restrictive... the ports are VERY small and would require a lot of work to get it to a remotely reasonable standard and even then, its just not big enough...

Rich
 

AndybS3

Registered User
I've phoned various companies Rich about fabricating a custom s/s manifold but because it's a one off you're looking at over £1000 for the work and they also need the car for a while.
I was wondering about the plate as I think ATP do a kit with a GT28?? and an adapter plate
 

DavidR

Registered User
Andy,

Explain that it will be far from one off, and try to claim a discount for development. If you have a manifold that will fit the IHI turbo or similar custom made and then reproducable, they'll sell...
 

Grant

Registered User
What is the better IHI turbo for the Audi?

The IHI VF22 or the IHI VF34, and can someone explain the differences and pros and cons of each please.

Thanks
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
Imola S3 said:
What is the better IHI turbo for the Audi?

The IHI VF22 or the IHI VF34, and can someone explain the differences and pros and cons of each please.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically:

IHI VF-22

Pro: high power output ~360+bhp
Cons: Increased Lag

IHI VF-34

Pro: Very little lag for its physical size.
Cons: lower output ~340bhp

Rich
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
David R said:
Andy,

Explain that it will be far from one off, and try to claim a discount for development. If you have a manifold that will fit the IHI turbo or similar custom made and then reproducable, they'll sell...

[/ QUOTE ]

Jabba have a proven manifold for the IHI... The only thing needed is for a GT28RS manifold.

Has anyone thought about buying a jabba manifold, cutting off the flange and welding on a flange for mounting a RS? Wouldnt be hard, and would mean the turbo is located in the right position laterally, youve got a damn good manifold .etc

Rich
 

AndybS3

Registered User
[ QUOTE ]
David R said:
Andy,

Explain that it will be far from one off, and try to claim a discount for development. If you have a manifold that will fit the IHI turbo or similar custom made and then reproducable, they'll sell...

[/ QUOTE ]

I've tried that angle David, the response was that I would get money back after they had sold a number of them, so shelling out for the manifold at that price and then the rest that goes with it would bring me into the IHI territory anyway, a tried and tested kit
 

dunk

Registered User
of all the options possibly available

the ihi isnt a developted kit for the s3 - you would need to get custom oil/water lines and downpipe, but the manifold is there. you would also need a custom map so would need to transport the car to get this done

apr are not going to do rhd kits, but in theory you could buy one o their kits and a jabba rhd ihi manifold and hack the manifold to fit the turbo in the apr kit - this might then just need a bit of tweaking of the mapping but the basics should be right. you might have to modify the oil and water lines and again you would need a custom downpipe

the sportec stuff is just silly prices

the mtm kit is well developed, off the shelf and takes 2 days to fit - thats why i eventually went this route- all the other companies required too much bodging/hacking with little support if it all went horribly wrong.
 

GolfTTish

Registered User
I've heard that the 28RS won't fit on jabbas manifold on a golf platform, as it fouls the bulkhead.
JBS are trying to develop there own manifold to fit a 28RS, using some bits from ATP with their own manifold.

But why bother. IHI kit is anything but fully developed, but it can be made to work relatively easily and in a reasonable time.

It won't make totaly silly power, but the VF34 can be made to produce >350hp with some other tweaks, and retain sensible drivability, with low boost threshold etc.

You cannot use more power than this on british roads for extended periods and either stay alive, or keep your liscence.

You are also looking at silly money whichever route you take, and you could pick up an early 996 porker by the time you've finished.

If I ever stop chucking cash at mine, it'll have cost in excess of £30K if you include buying the car new, and i've done everything cheap, with lots of freebies and favours along the way.

My advice to anyone is chip your s3 or a3 and enjoy the 50hp gain for £500. To get the next 50hp will cost you £5k, and the next another £5K

If you want more, buy a car that was designed for it in the first place. porker, evo etc.

But I did it anyway, and I'd do it again.
 

RichA3Turbo

Moderator
Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
GolfTTish said:
I've heard that the 28RS won't fit on jabbas manifold on a golf platform, as it fouls the bulkhead.
JBS are trying to develop there own manifold to fit a 28RS, using some bits from ATP with their own manifold.

But why bother. IHI kit is anything but fully developed, but it can be made to work relatively easily and in a reasonable time.

It won't make totaly silly power, but the VF34 can be made to produce >350hp with some other tweaks, and retain sensible drivability, with low boost threshold etc.

You cannot use more power than this on british roads for extended periods and either stay alive, or keep your liscence.

You are also looking at silly money whichever route you take, and you could pick up an early 996 porker by the time you've finished.

If I ever stop chucking cash at mine, it'll have cost in excess of £30K if you include buying the car new, and i've done everything cheap, with lots of freebies and favours along the way.

My advice to anyone is chip your s3 or a3 and enjoy the 50hp gain for £500. To get the next 50hp will cost you £5k, and the next another £5K

If you want more, buy a car that was designed for it in the first place. porker, evo etc.

But I did it anyway, and I'd do it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

All wise words and i couldnt agree more!

 
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