Thanks, Splitter is 12mm marine ply, cut with a jigsaw and profiled with a belt sander. Then painted black.
Mk1 TT 225 track day car, Officially a ten second car 10.8 seconds at 127 mph.
- Thread starter desertstorm
- Start date
Engine run completed with 475 miles done on mineral oil. Changed the oil for Millers Nano drive and connected the oil cooler back up. Engine oil that came out looked good and had no visible metal flakes or debris. Also took the opportunity to change the thermostat which was opening a little to early so the engine temp was only running around 75 degrees.
Connected up the MAC valve to control the boost, decided to ditch the factory N75 as the MAC valves are supposed to be more reliable at higher boost settings.Tie wrapped temporarily till I decide where to put it.
Tweaked the Ignitron map for 1.6 bar of boost. and did some logging. Tweaked a few more things and a bit more logging. Car drives very well and pulls well. ECU is calculating 430bhp at 7200 rpm and 450Nm which seems plausible. It certainly doesn't hang around. Need to tweak the PID controller and make a few more mods to get the boost more stable . It spikes to 1.8 bar when it's spooling and holds that for a few hundred RPM before settling at a steady 1.6 bar.
Connected up the MAC valve to control the boost, decided to ditch the factory N75 as the MAC valves are supposed to be more reliable at higher boost settings.Tie wrapped temporarily till I decide where to put it.
Tweaked the Ignitron map for 1.6 bar of boost. and did some logging. Tweaked a few more things and a bit more logging. Car drives very well and pulls well. ECU is calculating 430bhp at 7200 rpm and 450Nm which seems plausible. It certainly doesn't hang around. Need to tweak the PID controller and make a few more mods to get the boost more stable . It spikes to 1.8 bar when it's spooling and holds that for a few hundred RPM before settling at a steady 1.6 bar.
Hi @bobby singh the Ignitron ECU is indeed an amazing piece of work. It's not like most aftermarket ECU's it's designed to replace the ME7.5 ECU so is plug and play to the factory harness. No extra bits and pieces. Intergrates into the CAN bus reading values from other car modules such as the ABS to pick up wheel speed sensors, the clocks to get info such as fuel level etc.It has so much functionality and has very powerful logging facilities. The guys behind it are Hungarian but the support is fantastic from both them on the Facebook forum and Bill Brockbank at Badger 5 who sells these.
Sorted the boost issue with some tweaking of the Integrator maps for the PID controller, as suggested by Brian who is I believe the main man behind the ECU and he also spotted the quite bumpy Lambda curve which was due to the VE map not having smooth transitions between cells.
The car is Mafless running speed / density tuning and relies on the VE map and the transitions between the cells were not smooth as some of the values were quite high due to my innatention when applying the VE map learning values.
So that is sorted and Lambda is now pretty stable, also boost control. Spotted a few places where there a small amount of knock so retarded the ignition a degree or so . Run the map and check to make sure all is good, and wind up the boost to 1.8 bar for more fun.Need to wire in the switches on the wheel for race mode which will be 2 bar ish and hopefully around 500bhp.
Sorted the boost issue with some tweaking of the Integrator maps for the PID controller, as suggested by Brian who is I believe the main man behind the ECU and he also spotted the quite bumpy Lambda curve which was due to the VE map not having smooth transitions between cells.
The car is Mafless running speed / density tuning and relies on the VE map and the transitions between the cells were not smooth as some of the values were quite high due to my innatention when applying the VE map learning values.
So that is sorted and Lambda is now pretty stable, also boost control. Spotted a few places where there a small amount of knock so retarded the ignition a degree or so . Run the map and check to make sure all is good, and wind up the boost to 1.8 bar for more fun.Need to wire in the switches on the wheel for race mode which will be 2 bar ish and hopefully around 500bhp.
Looking into that just now. The gear selected function doesn't seem to work on my car ATM and I have been advised to check the clutch switch so that's what I am off to do now.
Smallport head with standard cams. Want a reliable fast car to use on the track and road. Happy to get somewhere close to 500bhp, in a sub 1300Kg car it will be fast enough for me.
pretty cool! i'm building an engine with similar spec - same turbo and Ignitron ECU as well - interested to see how much power yours makes, as i am also running a smallport head (though im going to be running catcams)
Boost by gear issue resolved. The clutch switch on my car had failed. Probably my enthusiastic gear changes. The end had broken off the switch.New switch fitted and ECU correctly identifies which gear the car is in.
More mapping and some checks made to see if all is running OK.
Started using some more of the functionality of the Ignitron ECU. It does so many things.
Added a switch to enable race mode. In race mode this will enable the highest boost I want to run along with anti lag and launch control. Will probably be 2 to 2.1 bar of boost.Certainly don't need anti lag in normal driving.
Ran the car with 1.6 bar of boost and sorted the PID controller settings to get the boost response I wanted. Quite easy really. Tweaked the ignition to lose a small amount of knock I was getting in 4th or 5th gear flat out pulls.
Configured the SET switch on the cruise control stalk to also the turbo map settings. So can run 4 different boost settings and alter them on the fly. Currently running 1.6, 1.8 and 1.9 bar maps. With the 1.9 bar map selected by the Race mode switch.
Have to say car is pretty quick at 1.8 bar, Haven't yet tried the 1.9 bar map. Need to review the logs on the 1.8 bar runs.
Selecting maps, only 2 configured maps when I shot this. The CEL flashes depending on which map selected. If you turn the cruise switch off it stops the SET button from working so you can't accidentally change the setting.
The Race mode selector switch. The red push button on the right is activates race mode when pressed and held. The switch on the left locks if you want to enable it for more than 10 seconds or so. The red LED on switch comes on when enabled.
Car does get through some fuel, although the MPG has reduced the smiles per gallon have very much increased.
Decided to check the compression across all the cylinders and check the plugs out, compression check is a base line as I know what it is now going forward if I need to check it again I can spot any changes.
With all the plugs removed and the engine at around 40 degrees I checked all 4 cylinders.
They all came out at between 210 and 215 PSI. This seems a little excessive to me compared to a normal BAM which is I believe around 8.5-9.0 to 1.
The Wossner pistons come in 8.5 and 9.5 to 1 compression, the lower compression items may ultimately result in more performance but off boost they can make the engine quite lazy. I went for the 9.5 to 1 items.
As it is ATM I am happy even off boost it's quite peppy.
I suspect that I may have to reduce timing a little to avoid knock at higher RPM which I am seeing a small amount of, but it's a good compromise.
I think the actual plugs look reasonable. They are NGK BKR7EIX , they managed in the engine before and the EGT's were much hotter than they are in this set up.
A shot of a small part of the info you get when logging. A 3rd gear acceleration run. Makes 1.8 bar of boost around 4350 RPM. Peak EGT was 780 degrees on that run.
More mapping and some checks made to see if all is running OK.
Started using some more of the functionality of the Ignitron ECU. It does so many things.
Added a switch to enable race mode. In race mode this will enable the highest boost I want to run along with anti lag and launch control. Will probably be 2 to 2.1 bar of boost.Certainly don't need anti lag in normal driving.
Ran the car with 1.6 bar of boost and sorted the PID controller settings to get the boost response I wanted. Quite easy really. Tweaked the ignition to lose a small amount of knock I was getting in 4th or 5th gear flat out pulls.
Configured the SET switch on the cruise control stalk to also the turbo map settings. So can run 4 different boost settings and alter them on the fly. Currently running 1.6, 1.8 and 1.9 bar maps. With the 1.9 bar map selected by the Race mode switch.
Have to say car is pretty quick at 1.8 bar, Haven't yet tried the 1.9 bar map. Need to review the logs on the 1.8 bar runs.
Selecting maps, only 2 configured maps when I shot this. The CEL flashes depending on which map selected. If you turn the cruise switch off it stops the SET button from working so you can't accidentally change the setting.
The Race mode selector switch. The red push button on the right is activates race mode when pressed and held. The switch on the left locks if you want to enable it for more than 10 seconds or so. The red LED on switch comes on when enabled.
Car does get through some fuel, although the MPG has reduced the smiles per gallon have very much increased.
Decided to check the compression across all the cylinders and check the plugs out, compression check is a base line as I know what it is now going forward if I need to check it again I can spot any changes.
With all the plugs removed and the engine at around 40 degrees I checked all 4 cylinders.
They all came out at between 210 and 215 PSI. This seems a little excessive to me compared to a normal BAM which is I believe around 8.5-9.0 to 1.
The Wossner pistons come in 8.5 and 9.5 to 1 compression, the lower compression items may ultimately result in more performance but off boost they can make the engine quite lazy. I went for the 9.5 to 1 items.
As it is ATM I am happy even off boost it's quite peppy.
I suspect that I may have to reduce timing a little to avoid knock at higher RPM which I am seeing a small amount of, but it's a good compromise.
I think the actual plugs look reasonable. They are NGK BKR7EIX , they managed in the engine before and the EGT's were much hotter than they are in this set up.
A shot of a small part of the info you get when logging. A 3rd gear acceleration run. Makes 1.8 bar of boost around 4350 RPM. Peak EGT was 780 degrees on that run.
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if there's a vss speed signal from clocks, iecu will pick that off from instruments, from which you just "teach" the ecu the gear ratio and then you have ability to set gear based boost.. I have just done this on our demo lupo K04-380 as 413bhp in a little lupo is daft traction wise.
Bill very good. You know the sample rate for logging with say 10 channels?
Can the ECU take a analog input to say monitor turbo shaft speed?
Do you remember me? we first met at Santa pod around 2003 ish iirc
My friend Virdi done your head in with questions as 13's 1/4 at the time was impressive (in a FWD). Resulted in him going for the jabba IHI kit.
Can the ECU take a analog input to say monitor turbo shaft speed?
Do you remember me? we first met at Santa pod around 2003 ish iirc
My friend Virdi done your head in with questions as 13's 1/4 at the time was impressive (in a FWD). Resulted in him going for the jabba IHI kit.
Hi Bobby data logging is not an issue with the Ignitron. The ECU will autolog upto 32 pieces of data that you choose continuously in the 8Mb memory at something like 35-40 samples per second. Obviously the faster you log stuff the quicker the 8Mb gets filled up and overwritten but I have mine set up at 32 pieces of data at 10 times per second and that gives you around 3.5 hours logging.
You can initiate a logging session from the tablet view if you are doing something like a pull through the gears, and it logs pretty much everything. You can convert the log files to a CSV and export them . I have just done that with a 39 second log file and it turns into a 2MEG CSV file.
It is logging nearly 500 parameters at around 30 samples per second. When viewing the log files in the ECU they are all sorted into very logical areas and it's reasonably easy to find stuff.
You can add extra inputs I have added a fuel rail pressure sensor and an oil pressure sensor. It has 4 inputs that accept and measure digital frequency, duty cycle or pulse width. Two of these are used for EGT and Vechicle speed but the other 2 can be used for anything you choose. One of the inputs ECU39 is wired to the clutch switch, so to use that you would need to connect the clutch switch to another input and ECU39 input would be free.
I did enquire about a turbo speed sensor as I was thinking about getting a Garret one for the G25, It has been done before I think.
You can see the various sections logs are divided into when it logs everything. It does a similar thing when looking at logs you have selected , so if you are interested in Turbo PID settings just look at the turbocharger logs.
If you are interested in a particular map you can view the logs on that screen and you can see the particular cell active at that time. You can press the play button and the cursor will move around the screen . You can alter some values in real time whilst driving the car . It really is very powerful.
Bill and @baliszoft of course know a lot more about it's capabilities and what it can do than I do.
You can initiate a logging session from the tablet view if you are doing something like a pull through the gears, and it logs pretty much everything. You can convert the log files to a CSV and export them . I have just done that with a 39 second log file and it turns into a 2MEG CSV file.
It is logging nearly 500 parameters at around 30 samples per second. When viewing the log files in the ECU they are all sorted into very logical areas and it's reasonably easy to find stuff.
You can add extra inputs I have added a fuel rail pressure sensor and an oil pressure sensor. It has 4 inputs that accept and measure digital frequency, duty cycle or pulse width. Two of these are used for EGT and Vechicle speed but the other 2 can be used for anything you choose. One of the inputs ECU39 is wired to the clutch switch, so to use that you would need to connect the clutch switch to another input and ECU39 input would be free.
I did enquire about a turbo speed sensor as I was thinking about getting a Garret one for the G25, It has been done before I think.
You can see the various sections logs are divided into when it logs everything. It does a similar thing when looking at logs you have selected , so if you are interested in Turbo PID settings just look at the turbocharger logs.
If you are interested in a particular map you can view the logs on that screen and you can see the particular cell active at that time. You can press the play button and the cursor will move around the screen . You can alter some values in real time whilst driving the car . It really is very powerful.
Bill and @baliszoft of course know a lot more about it's capabilities and what it can do than I do.
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hiBill very good. You know the sample rate for logging with say 10 channels?
Can the ECU take a analog input to say monitor turbo shaft speed?
Do you remember me? we first met at Santa pod around 2003 ish iirc
My friend Virdi done your head in with questions as 13's 1/4 at the time was impressive (in a FWD). Resulted in him going for the jabba IHI kit.
as karls saying, you can indeed log additional inputs if they're wired into analogue in (or frequency in)
sample speed is muchos fast, and unlimited if you are using tablet mode to log... its literally logging everything.. as well as internally logging up to 32 channels on its on board memory for download later. a few hours worth of data onboard.
2003 is a lifetime ago is'nt it.. lol... IHI was nice then, but boy have things moved on since then.. big time
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You can also very handily create your own template view to make all this data logged, managable like I have done.
Had a play with some of the many options Ignitron has. Happy that 1.9 bar seems OK I enabled launch control and anti lag in race mode.
I tried the aggressive version of anti lag first and it certainly does what it says on the tin. Holds around 1.3 bar of boost when changing gear which makes the gear change pretty seemless compared to a normal one. However the banging out the exhaust is pretty biblical and I can't imagine it's that good for the turbo or exhaust system. Thus trying out the mild option to see what that's like.
A section of the log showing 3rd,4th,5th gear accel run.
you can adjust the launch RPM by pressing the clutch and then using the adjusting the launch rpm with the accelerator.
I tried the aggressive version of anti lag first and it certainly does what it says on the tin. Holds around 1.3 bar of boost when changing gear which makes the gear change pretty seemless compared to a normal one. However the banging out the exhaust is pretty biblical and I can't imagine it's that good for the turbo or exhaust system. Thus trying out the mild option to see what that's like.
A section of the log showing 3rd,4th,5th gear accel run.
you can adjust the launch RPM by pressing the clutch and then using the adjusting the launch rpm with the accelerator.
Ran Anti lag in it's Mild configuration and whilst it's not quite as seamless as the aggressive version the banging out the exhaust is a lot more restrained and it still holds 0.6 bar of boost and recovers very quickly back to 1.9 bar. With this setting the throttle minimum opening whilst changing gear is only 20% whilst the aggressive setting is 50%.
Of course it's very easy to alter the settings and go anywhere in between these two pre loaded settings.
Of course it's very easy to alter the settings and go anywhere in between these two pre loaded settings.
I will have a go at tweaking the settings to get the effect that I want.One of the reasons I went with the Ignitron is the ability to fine tune everything I want out of the car so I am sure I will find the exact effect that works for me. If I was just running a 1/4 mile sprint then the aggressive mode would be fine. As I am running a track car I think it would possibly cause some issues at some tracks with the noise.
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I would not use ALS on the track at all. Maybe a very weak one which does not really increase your EGT above acceptable levels and also gives usable engine drag (on decel). If you plan to use ALS on the track i would suggest you to install an aux. vacuum pump which will provide vacuum for your brake booster, as with ALS the engine will not produce any!
I was going to configure it just to work on race mode and it will be a short term thing only, kind of push to pass on longer straights. It's my understanding that the vacuum suction pump on the intake manifold plumbing produces a certain amount of vacuum even in high boost conditions.
Quick question, why does it take take so long to download a complete 8Mb log file ? .
Is the ECU having to format the data to download it or is it some restriction on the USB speed ?.
Not a major hassle as I don't do it very often.
Quick question, why does it take take so long to download a complete 8Mb log file ? .
Is the ECU having to format the data to download it or is it some restriction on the USB speed ?.
Not a major hassle as I don't do it very often.
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It has a serial flash in it, which is accessed at low speed.
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No idea how much vaccum does it generate, it is usually omitted in high HP builds around here
Last big performance mods to be added to the car, Fitted the R32 throttle body I have had around for a while, straight forward with the Ignitron. Just needed to do a throttle body alignment and it was good to go. I have noticed a few percentage point gains on the VE map so it must be doing something.
The cooling upgrade arrived this afternoon. Pretty quick service from CSF. Slightly apprehensive when I saw the side of the box, Made in Indonesia?? . Not your normal made in china intercooler or rad though. Very well packaged, Sony or Panasonic would have been happy to pack a flat screen LCD TV like this. But then it costs as much as a small flat screen TV.
Quality of the welds and hardware on the rad is excellent, It does look very well made.And it seems to do a good job keeping engine temps under control .
Tried the car at 2.0 bar of boost with antilag. Hopefully won't be having any more trouble from those pesky M3's on the track.Won't be running this all the time more of a push to pass on longer straights.
Great thing about the logs is the number of measurements taken every second. Looking at the timestamps car accelerated from 50-75 mph in third gear in 1.9 seconds and covered the 60-120 mph sprint in 7.4 seconds.
The 60-120 time could be quicker if I had changed at 7500 instead of 3-4th 7200 and 4th-5th 6800.
Bit more tweaking and hopefully it will be going to Badger 5 for a bit of dyno tweaking.
The cooling upgrade arrived this afternoon. Pretty quick service from CSF. Slightly apprehensive when I saw the side of the box, Made in Indonesia?? . Not your normal made in china intercooler or rad though. Very well packaged, Sony or Panasonic would have been happy to pack a flat screen LCD TV like this. But then it costs as much as a small flat screen TV.
Quality of the welds and hardware on the rad is excellent, It does look very well made.And it seems to do a good job keeping engine temps under control .
Tried the car at 2.0 bar of boost with antilag. Hopefully won't be having any more trouble from those pesky M3's on the track.Won't be running this all the time more of a push to pass on longer straights.
Great thing about the logs is the number of measurements taken every second. Looking at the timestamps car accelerated from 50-75 mph in third gear in 1.9 seconds and covered the 60-120 mph sprint in 7.4 seconds.
The 60-120 time could be quicker if I had changed at 7500 instead of 3-4th 7200 and 4th-5th 6800.
Bit more tweaking and hopefully it will be going to Badger 5 for a bit of dyno tweaking.
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Great stuff Karl!
Enjoyed catching up with progress. Can't wait to see how it does on the dyno!
How did it go out in the States with the Robots?
Enjoyed catching up with progress. Can't wait to see how it does on the dyno!
How did it go out in the States with the Robots?
Car is booked in at Bills next Saturday to see what it's doing and some tweakage from the man himself.
Had a great time in the states, the robot had a hard time. Great spending 2 weeks watching these things batter each other and get rebuilt, some of the engineering that goes into them is incredible.
Had a great time in the states, the robot had a hard time
. Great spending 2 weeks watching these things batter each other and get rebuilt, some of the engineering that goes into them is incredible.
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Car is booked in at Bills next Saturday to see what it's doing and some tweakage from the man himself.
Had a great time in the states, the robot had a hard time
Oh great news! Glad the trip to the states went well.
Very excited to hear how the car does at Bills!
nightroamer
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Car is booked in at Bills next Saturday to see what it's doing and some tweakage from the man himself.
Had a great time in the states, the robot had a hard time
Excited for today’s results
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Well took the car over to Bill at Badger 5 to see what it was doing and maybe get the car tweaked a bit. I asked him to run 2 maps the first at 1.8 bar which will be the normal running boost and 2.1 bar which will be what I would use for a short sprint or push to pass on a longer straight. I was hoping for something around 480 bhp and 370 Lb/ft (500Nm ) and ended up with 460bhp and 370 Lb/ft (500Nm) , So hit one of the targets. Bills dyno isn't one of those that gives away horses easily.
Suppose I was hoping for a little too much running a small port head, standard BAM manifold and standard cams in terms of flow at higher RPM. With no WMI as a lot of cars seem to run.
Bill hit the button on the Ignitron dash to fully log the runs which has given me some interesting information.
The first two runs are 1.8 bar and the second 2 are 2.1 bar race mode.
The ECU calculates power and torque from various parameters and when I had been testing the car had seen 480-490 bhp readings in race mode 3rd gear quite often. So was expecting to see over inflated readings when I looked at the logs. I was quite surprised to see the following.
FIRST 1.8 BAR RUN
415 BHP 7140 346 LB/FT 470 Nm 4800
Ignitron logged
408BHP 437 Nm
SECOND 1.8 BAR RUN
427 BHP 6900 350 LB/FT 475 Nm 4800
Ignitron logged
399 BHP 429 Nm
FIRST 2.1 BAR RUN
460 BHP 7200 369 LB/FT 500 Nm 6000
Ignitron logged
449 BHP 479 Nm
SECOND 2.1 BAR RUN
459 BHP 7250 369 LB/FT 500Nm 6000
Ignitron logged
440 BHP 479 Nm
The Ignitron logged values are what the ECU was calculating at the same RPM as the dyno readings. So ball park readings from the Ignitron always lower than what the dyno had measured for both torque and power.
So looking into why that might be given I have seen calculated readings of 480-490bhp one thing I could see was the intake temps were creeping over 40 degrees, At this point it starts pulling boost and timing on the maps. With a 22 degree ambient that's only 18 degrees higher but on the road it rarely goes much more than 13-14 degrees over and the ambient is lower there was about 1.0 degree of timing pulled on the one Hi boost run at the top end.
I then had a look at the timing correction by gear as I could see some timing being pulled there.
I have found that there is a small amount of knock detected around 5200-5800 rpm in 4th and 5th gears but not in lower gears so populated some of the fields in this table to try and counter this issue. I seemed to have cocked up a little in the 5th gear as I have entered 2.3 degrees at 5500 rpm for no obvious reason and added a degree at 6500 and 7000 RPM because I suspected it may need this although I have never driven the car that fast to find out, and there was no sign of knock on the runs over 6500 rpm, 7500 RPM in 5th is about 150mph. All the dyno runs are in 5th gear, so that wouldn't have helped actual power output.
I think the mapping needs some more tweaking and after speaking to Bill I may have a look at the cams and possibly changing the inlet cam to improve the top end breathing a little. Fairly easy to do without removing the head apparently.
Suppose I was hoping for a little too much running a small port head, standard BAM manifold and standard cams in terms of flow at higher RPM. With no WMI as a lot of cars seem to run.
Bill hit the button on the Ignitron dash to fully log the runs which has given me some interesting information.
The first two runs are 1.8 bar and the second 2 are 2.1 bar race mode.
The ECU calculates power and torque from various parameters and when I had been testing the car had seen 480-490 bhp readings in race mode 3rd gear quite often. So was expecting to see over inflated readings when I looked at the logs. I was quite surprised to see the following.
FIRST 1.8 BAR RUN
415 BHP 7140 346 LB/FT 470 Nm 4800
Ignitron logged
408BHP 437 Nm
SECOND 1.8 BAR RUN
427 BHP 6900 350 LB/FT 475 Nm 4800
Ignitron logged
399 BHP 429 Nm
FIRST 2.1 BAR RUN
460 BHP 7200 369 LB/FT 500 Nm 6000
Ignitron logged
449 BHP 479 Nm
SECOND 2.1 BAR RUN
459 BHP 7250 369 LB/FT 500Nm 6000
Ignitron logged
440 BHP 479 Nm
The Ignitron logged values are what the ECU was calculating at the same RPM as the dyno readings. So ball park readings from the Ignitron always lower than what the dyno had measured for both torque and power.
So looking into why that might be given I have seen calculated readings of 480-490bhp one thing I could see was the intake temps were creeping over 40 degrees, At this point it starts pulling boost and timing on the maps. With a 22 degree ambient that's only 18 degrees higher but on the road it rarely goes much more than 13-14 degrees over and the ambient is lower there was about 1.0 degree of timing pulled on the one Hi boost run at the top end.
I then had a look at the timing correction by gear as I could see some timing being pulled there.
I have found that there is a small amount of knock detected around 5200-5800 rpm in 4th and 5th gears but not in lower gears so populated some of the fields in this table to try and counter this issue. I seemed to have cocked up a little in the 5th gear as I have entered 2.3 degrees at 5500 rpm for no obvious reason and added a degree at 6500 and 7000 RPM because I suspected it may need this although I have never driven the car that fast to find out, and there was no sign of knock on the runs over 6500 rpm, 7500 RPM in 5th is about 150mph. All the dyno runs are in 5th gear, so that wouldn't have helped actual power output.
I think the mapping needs some more tweaking and after speaking to Bill I may have a look at the cams and possibly changing the inlet cam to improve the top end breathing a little. Fairly easy to do without removing the head apparently.
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pair of n/a cams will help hold its top end torque or even the bigger cams like the cats we use on our bigger builds, budget depending.
Comparisons of other G25's, 550 & 660 and yours.. show you have more potential from it from further mods.
Comaparisons are Badgerwagen on G25-660, extreme ported dimpled largeport, badger catcams(YELLOW), The beetle we did on G25-660, smallport, std inlet, std cams but with wmi(BLUE), and your G25-660(RED).
Another comparison against, G25-550, G25-660.. Beetle,550,smallport,std cams,wmi vs TT225,550 smallport, std cams no meth, your TT225 660 smallport, std cams,larger throttle body, no meth, Badgerwagen, extreme ported largeport, dimpled, catcams, modifiedVVT/optimised cam timing..
You have to like these G25 series.. so much more area under the curve..
Comparisons of other G25's, 550 & 660 and yours.. show you have more potential from it from further mods.
Comaparisons are Badgerwagen on G25-660, extreme ported dimpled largeport, badger catcams(YELLOW), The beetle we did on G25-660, smallport, std inlet, std cams but with wmi(BLUE), and your G25-660(RED).
Another comparison against, G25-550, G25-660.. Beetle,550,smallport,std cams,wmi vs TT225,550 smallport, std cams no meth, your TT225 660 smallport, std cams,larger throttle body, no meth, Badgerwagen, extreme ported largeport, dimpled, catcams, modifiedVVT/optimised cam timing..
You have to like these G25 series.. so much more area under the curve..
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Thanks for the comparisons Bill @badger5 . Shame I didn't notice the issue with the timing correction on 5th gear before it went on the dyno. Given up some easy power by not running a bit more timing. Don't really want to push the boat out on some cat cams but some second hand AGN ADR cams look to be the way to go.
Been enjoying the car out on the road in this nice weather. I am sure it's taken a few people by surprise with just how quick it is, still surprises me a bit. Getting ready for the Performance German Day at Castle Combe so sorted the front splitter out with my lawn edging in place looks quite good I think. Think it's just about the right height to be useable on the road . I have tried it across some of the larger speed bumps we have around here and seems OK.
Upgraded the brakes a bit. Bought some Pagid RS29 pads and a new set of ATE brake discs from the R32 golf, v6 TT . Plan was to swap between these discs and pads and the DB9 pads, EBC discs I have been running so I wouldn't need to have to keep bedding in different pads. Also wasn't entirely sure what the RS29 pads would be like on the road. Having bedded the pads in this afternoon they seem to be fine on the road which is good as I will be driving to track days with them on. Not had chance to get them really hot yet .
Upgraded the brakes a bit. Bought some Pagid RS29 pads and a new set of ATE brake discs from the R32 golf, v6 TT . Plan was to swap between these discs and pads and the DB9 pads, EBC discs I have been running so I wouldn't need to have to keep bedding in different pads. Also wasn't entirely sure what the RS29 pads would be like on the road. Having bedded the pads in this afternoon they seem to be fine on the road which is good as I will be driving to track days with them on. Not had chance to get them really hot yet .
Favourite place to be on a sunny day. In a scrap yard dismantling things. Not what most people would say, but been looking into possibly changing the cams in the engine to improve the top end breathing a little. Not wanting to spend too much I spent some time surfing the net and fleabay and decided the cams from a late AGN APG NA engine would be the best for me.
Found a complete engine on Fleabay with the gearbox for £150 but only really wanted the cams. Rang the seller and he said £80 for the head only, so 75 minutes later I am standing over the engine taking the head off. Took me 25 minutes to remove it and I was off back home. Cams look fine and I think initially I will just be changing the inlet cam and see what that brings.
An oft quoted list of cams . The late AGN APG model engines have the same opening point on the intake cam as the standard turbo intake cam but more lift and duration so hopefully this will just mean wins all around.
inlet:
058109021 = ADR und AFY 8,78mm, 210°, 4° n.OT
058109021.B = APX, ANB, AEB,APU, AJL, AGU, AQA, ARZ, AJQ, APP, APY, AUL 7,67mm, 190°, 18° n.OT
058109021.K = ADR, APT, ARG, AVV 8,41mm, 202°, 16° n.OT
058109021.M = AWT, AUM, ARX, ARY, AUQ, AMK, BAM, AUL, APP 7,67mm, 190°, 18° n.OT
058109021.F = AGN, APG 8,41mm, 202°, 18° n. OT
058109021.E = AWB 8,6mm, 207°, 9° n.OT
058109021.D = ADR, AGN 8,41mm, 202°, 12° n. OT
esxaust:
058109022.B = AQA, ARZ, AJQ, APP, APY, AEB, APU, ANB, AJL, AWT, AGU, AUM, ARX, ARY, AUQ, AMK, BAM 9,3mm, 210°, 10° v.OT
058109022.C = ADR, AFY, APT, ARG, AVV 10,25mm, 210°, 8° v.OT
058109022.D = AGN, APG 10,4mm, 210°, 8° v.OT
v.OT = vor dem Oberen Totpunkt = before Top Dead Centre
n.OT = nach dem oberen Totpunkt = after Top Dead Centre
Found a complete engine on Fleabay with the gearbox for £150 but only really wanted the cams. Rang the seller and he said £80 for the head only, so 75 minutes later I am standing over the engine taking the head off. Took me 25 minutes to remove it and I was off back home. Cams look fine and I think initially I will just be changing the inlet cam and see what that brings.
An oft quoted list of cams . The late AGN APG model engines have the same opening point on the intake cam as the standard turbo intake cam but more lift and duration so hopefully this will just mean wins all around.
inlet:
058109021 = ADR und AFY 8,78mm, 210°, 4° n.OT
058109021.B = APX, ANB, AEB,APU, AJL, AGU, AQA, ARZ, AJQ, APP, APY, AUL 7,67mm, 190°, 18° n.OT
058109021.K = ADR, APT, ARG, AVV 8,41mm, 202°, 16° n.OT
058109021.M = AWT, AUM, ARX, ARY, AUQ, AMK, BAM, AUL, APP 7,67mm, 190°, 18° n.OT
058109021.F = AGN, APG 8,41mm, 202°, 18° n. OT
058109021.E = AWB 8,6mm, 207°, 9° n.OT
058109021.D = ADR, AGN 8,41mm, 202°, 12° n. OT
esxaust:
058109022.B = AQA, ARZ, AJQ, APP, APY, AEB, APU, ANB, AJL, AWT, AGU, AUM, ARX, ARY, AUQ, AMK, BAM 9,3mm, 210°, 10° v.OT
058109022.C = ADR, AFY, APT, ARG, AVV 10,25mm, 210°, 8° v.OT
058109022.D = AGN, APG 10,4mm, 210°, 8° v.OT
v.OT = vor dem Oberen Totpunkt = before Top Dead Centre
n.OT = nach dem oberen Totpunkt = after Top Dead Centre
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How did the German day at Combe go Karl?
Very keen to hear how it went and how the car felt!
What tyres did you run? Any idea on lap times?
Splitter looks good too!
Interested to see how you find the cams. Many people seem to enjoy the inlet cam only setup, but I hated it myself and much prefered both cams.
Inlet only is easy to fit though as you don't have to disturb the belt or main timing.
Very keen to hear how it went and how the car felt!
What tyres did you run? Any idea on lap times?
Splitter looks good too!
Interested to see how you find the cams. Many people seem to enjoy the inlet cam only setup, but I hated it myself and much prefered both cams.
Inlet only is easy to fit though as you don't have to disturb the belt or main timing.
Took the car to the Castle Combe Performance German day on Saturday. met up with some of the guys from Audi-sport.net and parked on the stand in the morning.
Main reason I had gone to the day was to try the car out on track. Having been round the track in my A4 I wanted to see what the TT would do. Not on till the afternoon session I had some time to watch other people out on track and with only 12 cars at a time out on the track it meant a much less congested track than I had been on before.
First session out and I just wanted to make sure everything worked OK and the brakes were bedded in. Managed to do about 3 laps just picking up the pace and I over ran one of the chicanes and ended up slowing right down to negotiate the tyres they put there. Just after the car went into limp mode, with very little traffic on track I could check the fault codes on Ignitron and it was a low oil pressure event. With the oil being at around 100 degrees and slowing for the chicane it had dropped 0.1 bar below the minimum 2.5 bar at 2000 rpm I had set in the map. Reset it and was off again. Picking up speed and learning the track for the next few laps then car went into limp mode again. So this time decided to cool down for a lap and leave the track.
This time car had gone over the 920 degree EGT limit I had set in limp mode. Not really sure what is safe for EGT on this, Mar M turbine on the G660 good for 1050 degrees apparently. With Supertech Inconel exhaust valves the EGT limit must be better than OE which I thought was around 920 degrees. Really surprised how quick the car was in limp mode running just 1 bar of boost.
I tweaked the low oil pressure limp mode map and upped the EGT limit to 940. Looking at the logs EGT is fine under power but when you lift off to brake it increases without the cooling effect of fuel. Second time out ran 1.6 bar on the map and car seemed to be going well until the EPC light came on and car went into limp mode again. Looking at all the temps and pressures everything seemed OK, so did a few more laps and car appeared fine.
Coming in off the track after a cool down lap and driving into the pits the engine was revving itself. without touching the throttle the engine was revving between idle and about 2.5K all on it's own in a very repetitive way. Pulled over and stopped, checked the fault codes and 2 codes appeared to point to the throttle pedal or throttle body. Cleared the codes and did a throttle body alignment started the engine and it revved upto 2.5k straight away and then started revving higher. Turned engine off played for the next 15 minutes with it and eventually managed to get it idling and driving OK.
Decided at that point to call it a day as far as the track was concerned. Managed to drive car home OK and on Sunday found the cause of the problem the throttle body is broken, the throttle should shut on it's own with quite a strong spring, looks like it's broken on mine.
So highlights of the day.
CSF rad is a fantastic bit of kit, coolant temps never went above 90 degrees when on track, oil temps peaked at 110 degrees maximum so really happy with that. Pagid RS29 pads and new discs really work well, very little wear on either and no sign of any fade. They feel a bit grabby compared to what I am used to and caught me out a few times when I braked a little too enthusiatically.
Car handling was OK, still don't think the front end turns in well enough but didn't have time to adjust or play with tyre pressures , dampers etc.
Going forward think I will be moving the Water meth system off the A4 which I only ever use very infrequently and putting it on the TT. Maybe uprating the front springs to 650-700Lb/in from the 550 they are now, to kill some of the roll. I removed the front ARB as this seemed to actually improve things but looking at the pictures on track it should be sitting flatter I think.
Tyres are the 235/40/18 Yokahama A052 I used before and they seemed to be quite good. I should have looked at some of the on line videos on driving the track as my lines were not where they should be for a quick lap.
Some pictures and videos.
From the Harrys lap timer app I was using my fastest lap was 1.20.3 on which I completely cocked up the last corner, and that lap would have been more like a 1.18.5 which was my fastest virtual lap. That included 2 out of the 3 sectors from the 1.20.3 lap. Half way around my fastest lap coming out of Quarry was when the EPC light came on so half that lap was in limp mode.
You can see how the lap times dropped with the car in limp mode after the 120.3
Fastest lap of the day , this was only 1.6 bar boost down the straight and still managed 132mph , with water meth and everything working right think closer to 140 would be possible. Car went into limp mode somewhere around Quarry.
Some laps in the car after my fast lap above with the car in limp mode, overtaken by several BMW's at the end the white one I noticed was an M2 competition car.
Main reason I had gone to the day was to try the car out on track. Having been round the track in my A4 I wanted to see what the TT would do. Not on till the afternoon session I had some time to watch other people out on track and with only 12 cars at a time out on the track it meant a much less congested track than I had been on before.
First session out and I just wanted to make sure everything worked OK and the brakes were bedded in. Managed to do about 3 laps just picking up the pace and I over ran one of the chicanes and ended up slowing right down to negotiate the tyres they put there. Just after the car went into limp mode, with very little traffic on track I could check the fault codes on Ignitron and it was a low oil pressure event. With the oil being at around 100 degrees and slowing for the chicane it had dropped 0.1 bar below the minimum 2.5 bar at 2000 rpm I had set in the map. Reset it and was off again. Picking up speed and learning the track for the next few laps then car went into limp mode again. So this time decided to cool down for a lap and leave the track.
This time car had gone over the 920 degree EGT limit I had set in limp mode. Not really sure what is safe for EGT on this, Mar M turbine on the G660 good for 1050 degrees apparently. With Supertech Inconel exhaust valves the EGT limit must be better than OE which I thought was around 920 degrees. Really surprised how quick the car was in limp mode running just 1 bar of boost.
I tweaked the low oil pressure limp mode map and upped the EGT limit to 940. Looking at the logs EGT is fine under power but when you lift off to brake it increases without the cooling effect of fuel. Second time out ran 1.6 bar on the map and car seemed to be going well until the EPC light came on and car went into limp mode again. Looking at all the temps and pressures everything seemed OK, so did a few more laps and car appeared fine.
Coming in off the track after a cool down lap and driving into the pits the engine was revving itself. without touching the throttle the engine was revving between idle and about 2.5K all on it's own in a very repetitive way. Pulled over and stopped, checked the fault codes and 2 codes appeared to point to the throttle pedal or throttle body. Cleared the codes and did a throttle body alignment started the engine and it revved upto 2.5k straight away and then started revving higher. Turned engine off played for the next 15 minutes with it and eventually managed to get it idling and driving OK.
Decided at that point to call it a day as far as the track was concerned. Managed to drive car home OK and on Sunday found the cause of the problem the throttle body is broken, the throttle should shut on it's own with quite a strong spring, looks like it's broken on mine.
So highlights of the day.
CSF rad is a fantastic bit of kit, coolant temps never went above 90 degrees when on track, oil temps peaked at 110 degrees maximum so really happy with that. Pagid RS29 pads and new discs really work well, very little wear on either and no sign of any fade. They feel a bit grabby compared to what I am used to and caught me out a few times when I braked a little too enthusiatically.
Car handling was OK, still don't think the front end turns in well enough but didn't have time to adjust or play with tyre pressures , dampers etc.
Going forward think I will be moving the Water meth system off the A4 which I only ever use very infrequently and putting it on the TT. Maybe uprating the front springs to 650-700Lb/in from the 550 they are now, to kill some of the roll. I removed the front ARB as this seemed to actually improve things but looking at the pictures on track it should be sitting flatter I think.
Tyres are the 235/40/18 Yokahama A052 I used before and they seemed to be quite good. I should have looked at some of the on line videos on driving the track as my lines were not where they should be for a quick lap.
Some pictures and videos.
From the Harrys lap timer app I was using my fastest lap was 1.20.3 on which I completely cocked up the last corner, and that lap would have been more like a 1.18.5 which was my fastest virtual lap. That included 2 out of the 3 sectors from the 1.20.3 lap. Half way around my fastest lap coming out of Quarry was when the EPC light came on so half that lap was in limp mode.
You can see how the lap times dropped with the car in limp mode after the 120.3
Fastest lap of the day , this was only 1.6 bar boost down the straight and still managed 132mph , with water meth and everything working right think closer to 140 would be possible. Car went into limp mode somewhere around Quarry.
Some laps in the car after my fast lap above with the car in limp mode, overtaken by several BMW's at the end the white one I noticed was an M2 competition car.
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920C for EGT limit is too conservative for track use (as you may have noticed ), i use 950C on street. Too tight limp parameters are just showstoppers . Throttle body stuck open? :O Never seen that before. Car looks to be fast and fun though!
), i use 950C on street. Too tight limp parameters are just showstoppers . Throttle body stuck open? :O Never seen that before. Car looks to be fast and fun though!
Thanks for the feedback, Bill has given me some really useful ideas . One of the reasons I bought the Ignitron was because of the limp features. They just need some fine tuning to work correctly. coolant leaks and oil leaks can quickly cause you issues on track so would rather know about them before more damage occurs. I never see anything over 900 degrees EGT on the street running 2 bar boost. Looking at the logs I am still driving the car like I did with the K04, typically changing up at 6700-6800 Which helps to keep the EGT's in check but doesn't liberate the potential from the car.
