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Mk1 TT 225 track day car, Donnington track day spin

desertstorm Apr 7, 2017

  1. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    you probably already told me this but egt sensor is in collector on yours?
     
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  3. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Yes @badger5 in the collector. Found the Lambda EGT enrichment map on Ignitron, Not normally used by the looks of it. I already have a WMI system fitted on my A4 road car that I very rarely use so think I may transfer it to the TT and try some water injection. I would like the EGT's to be sensible and under normal road use they are. On those dyno runs at yours the highest seen was around 915 degrees.
    I was also babying the car a lot looking at the logs, I am not using the revs at all and changing up around 66-6700 RPM which is what I used to do with the stage 2 K04. Revving out the engine will only make the EGT situation worse though I would have thought. EGT sensor is located where the red cross is.
    EGT sensor location.jpg
     
  4. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I noticed that you're not revving it out much at all Karl, it's really obvious from the sound more than anything. it'll be interesting to see how you find the cams open up the rev range.

    I watched yours compared to mine last night and it's certainly making more power than I was on the GT30!

    On my lap I cross the start line at 102mph, and only reach 129 up the rise. That's button pressed too so 2 bar the whole way up!

    You cross the line at 88mph and still manage to reach 132mph, so whatever it's making it's more than I was on the GT30!

    Looks fun. Will be good to see how you get on with a few ECU tweaks
     
  5. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    The inlet cam I have should hopefully just help the top end breathing a bit. Opening point is the same as the turbo Cams so shouldn’t affect the bottom end and with more lift and 12 degrees more duration will just hopefully stop the torque falling off so quick at the top end. Been playing with virtual Dyno which I have found quite useful to see improvements in power and torque.
     
  6. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Went shopping on Flea bay looking for a new throttle body, didn't want another R32 item as although cheap enough they are 15 years old and more likely to fail. Found a 75mm throttle body as used on the RS4,RS5,RS3 and TTRS and looking at the connector it seemed the same as the original and the R32 item so went for that.
    I dismantled the original throttle body to see what the problem was and the spring that shuts the valve had broken, right in the middle of the spring though not at the end which is where I would of thought it would break.
    DSC_5135.JPG

    Small problem with the new throttle body, although it has a 75mm throttle butterfly the spacing of the mounting holes is smaller on the RS3 item , only 70mm on the RS3 as opposed to 75mm on the R32. So looks like I had to find some way to make it fit. Either drilling some offset holes in the adaptor plate or remaking the plate. I decided on the easy option and slotted the mounting holes in the new throttle body. So after making sure the TB worked OK with the Ignitron ECU ( which it does) I slotted the holes out 2.5mm on each corner to get the 75mm hole centres.

    DSC_5121.JPG
     
  7. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    Interesting stuff Karl.

    How did you manage to slot out the holes? They're usually cast the full depth like 30mm or more and quite thin!

    Good to hear it's plug and play on the wiring side too, Much like the VR6 upgrade for the AGU setup
     
  8. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    I slotted the holes using a course round file, It's only cast ally so not that difficult. If it was steel that would be a different story. There was enough material to let me do this fortunately. This item is about 350 grams lighter than the R32 one so a very slight bonus there as well. I thought as the item was used on turbo cars such as the RS3 and TTRS retention of the hose wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately on the RS3 and TTRS I have since found out they use a throttle valve adaptor which bolts onto the throttle body and the hose connection to the intercooler is on this.
    https://audi.7zap.com/en/rdw/audi+rs3+sportback/rs3/2011-720/1/145-145080/ item 26.

    Thus I am having issues getting the boost hose to stop on the throttle body. If the Silverkrin hair spray doesn't work then will need to get some ally welding done like I did on the R32 item.
     
  9. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Small update, fitted the Water injection system. Took the WMI system off my A4 that has had very little use.

    DSC_5123.JPG

    I am going to use this to inject water only as I am really just after reducing EGT and hopefully some knock that occurs around 5500-6500 RPM at high boost. On the A4 I used a pressure switch that turned the pump on at anything over 20PSI . Fortunately on the TT I have the Ignitron and there are better ways of enabling progressive injection. You can buy a fancy progressive controller from Devils own or several other manufacturers or use some of the Ignitrons functionality to implement a fully adjustable progressive controller for the cost of a Solid State Relay.
    Using the Fuel Rail Pressure controller option on Ignitron, which isn't used normally, I can control the SSR to switch it's output from 0-100% . The output from the controller can be routed to any unused output on the Ignitron ECU. So I used the Evap solenoid output. Extended the wires from the EVAP solenoid to the input connections of the SSR.

    DSC_5151.JPG

    The output of these SSR's is a Mosfet and the particular one I chose will switch 20A. I initially bought a 40A cheap Chinese clone SSR40DD off Fleabay and it did work but the heatsink on the back wasn't isolated and was connected to the 12V input. Not very good so bought a used Crydom D1D20 off fleabay.
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sensata-Crydom-20-A-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-D1D20/333168323379?
    This works fine and should be more reliable than the cheap Clone. The heatsink is also isolated as it should be.

    After some measurements of flow at various percentage outputs I came up with this map to try first.

    Fuel Rail pressure map min.JPG

    This will start injecting water when RPM is above 4500Rpm and more than 1.2 bar of boost . I discovered when testing that even with only a 5% output you would get 75% of the output that you get at 100%.
    The jet used was a Devils Own number 5 . The atomisation was still good at 5%
    5 % 260 mL / minute
    8% 290
    10% 300
    40% 320
    60% 330
    100% 350

    Mounted the pump and tank in the car low and in the centre.

    DSC_5150.JPG

    The water injector jet is pre TB

    DSC_5153.JPG

    Initial tests seem to show this works well to reduce EGT , took about 80 degrees EGT off a back to back 2 bar 3rd gear acceleration run. And also got rid of the 2 degree timing pull that was showing on cylinders 2 and 3. Intake air temps reduced by 4-5 degrees as well . Currently I am using deionised water as had 5L of it in the garage and it's fairly cheap compared to methanol anyway.
    Unfortunately when looking at the logs I also noticed that the fuel pressure when running at high revs was not where it should be 3.3 bar instead of 5 bar and 99% injector duty cycle.
    Ignitron was doing it's best to hold the Lambda to the specified level but looks like it was close to going into the limp mode
    I have configured.
    So looks like the DW65v is not happy so it's out to go back to Part-box and the original pump is back in. I have ordered a Bosch 044 and this will be fitted shortly. Hopefully this will mean I can get back to using the car on track again.
     
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  10. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    the more I see about ignitron the more ridiculously impressed I am by it's capabilities. So much so that I simply cannot imagine a future that doesn't involve my car running on it!

    I'd agree that a single DW65 is unlikely to keep up with a G25 660 at 2 bar, I've seen other have similar issues. I think an 064 inline is your friend there, but I'm not sure going back to the original intank is a wise move, as the 044 still needs a decent flow to keep it happy.
     
  11. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Ignitron is a great piece of kit, With all the features and the fantastic logging facilities makes tuning and tweaking the car a lot easier.
    I have fitted a Bosch 044 to the car using Bills custom made tails and put the OE pump back in the tank for the moment. Not to difficult to fit really using the tails. I ran a 30A fused supply to the fuel tank and used the power feed to the in tank pump to switch the relay that then feeds the 044. Added a GND point for the pumps as well. Bill suggested a Cupra R filter that I have fitted under the bonnet. They are very much smaller than the OE TT item. Went to a local VAG breakers place by me and they were breaking a mk4 1.6 Golf so managed to get the 90 degree quick fit fuel fittings off that to use on the fuel filter. Filter part number 503440627 £5.41 delivered from CP4L . The Pump was from Fleabay £145 . You have to watch out there are loads of dodgy pumps on there, this is from an authorised seller and I have checked the hologram part number against the Bosch protect web site.
    http://www.ebaystores.co.uk/driven2automotive

    https://badger5.co.uk/fuelling/1-8t...fittings-for-oe-filter-location-pump-installs


    DSC_5155.JPG

    The OE filter on the TT is well big.

    DSC_5166.JPG

    Comparing the OE filter with the Cupra item. The Cupra filter fits nicely.

    DSC_5165.JPG

    You can see the pressure sensor in the line just before the filter. Previously the sensor was measuring pressure after the filter . Pressure seen at idle is about 0.2 bar higher than before. There will be a small amount of pressure drop across the filter but the main difference is the 044 is doing the business and shifting fuel.
    DSC_5157.JPG


    Didn't take a picture of the pump installed just the before piccie with the filter. You can see there's lots of room with.
    DSC_5162.JPG

    Pushed a fish wire down from the pump relay to the pump and pulled the pump wiring through.

    DSC_5168.JPG

    The pump is a good deal louder than the OE pump. Quite noticeable at idle but once driving you don't really notice it. I have a few ideas on sorting this.
    These kind of pumps when used on cars typically have pulsation dampers or accumulators to try and smooth the fuel pressure pulses.
    when I fitted the Original TT pump I did some testing and the TT pump managed 4.3 L flow to an open pipe in 90 seconds. The duff DW65 managed 5.1L on the same test. The DW65 flow is well below what it should be doing and has gone back to be exchanged under warranty.
    The Bosch flows about 7 litres of fuel in 90 seconds at 3 bar looking at the stats, a lot more than the OE pump can flow to an open pipe.
    I took the car out for a drive with the old TT pump on and did a 3rd gear accel run. It went into limp mode around 7K RPM when Ignitron detected the Lambda being higher than I had set. Maximum Lambda is set at 0.86 and it made it to 0.9 just before 7K. I pretty much expected that, the reason I had the DW65 was because the OE pump couldn't cope with a stage 2 275bhp tune.

    limp mode old pump.JPG

    Looking at the logs the original pump managed about 4.1 bar max and fell to 3.4 bar when it should have been around 5 bar. Injector duration had hit 100% trying to maintain Lambda at target.

    old fuel pump.JPG

    This is the log from the run on the dyno at Bills with the DW65 in better health. Peaks about 4.7 bar and then falls away to 4 bar.

    DW65V on Bills dyno.JPG

    And this is the Bosch with the original 17 year old pump in the tank. Pretty much holds 5.2 bar all the way through .The OE pump just has to supply enough low pressure fuel to the 044. I will probably drop the DW65 back in the tank just as it will be more reliable than the original pump . There is a possibility it may make the 044 a little quieter as I suspect some of the noise is due to cavitation due to restriction on the intake. Will be having a look at maybe controlling the voltage on the pump to reduce it's speed at idle and cruise.

    Bosch 044 fuel pressure.JPG
     
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  13. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    Good stuff Karl. I look forward to exposing a multitude of mechanical issues on mine once I have the full logging capability if ingitron :laugh:
     
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  14. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Booked some track time for the car. Out at Curbrough on Bank Holiday Monday the 26th with the Chequered Flag group, Looks like a mix of cars, be interesting to see how the TT goes since the power upgrade.
    https://www.the-chequered-flag.com/
    Booked the 4th September at Donnington for the day with Javelin. Hopefully have the water injection fully dialled in for then so can get the full use out of the engine .
    Looking to take it for a run out at Santa Pod for a laugh to see what it will do. Probably the GTI Action event in October after I have sorted the cam out and done a bit more tweaking.
     
  15. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Refitted the new DW65V pump that Part Box sent back to me in place of the original TT pump. This has sorted the noisy 044 pump issue.
    Old TT pump



    And the new DW65V, much quieter and almost inaudible in the car .



    Do have a slight issue with the new DW65v and Bosch together they are putting so much fuel through the pressure at idle should be around 2.5 bar, it's more like 3.1 bar as the OE regulator looks like it can't handle that much fuel being thrown at it. The Ignitron works around this and has resulted in changes to the VE map. I may use one of the auxilliary outputs on the Ignitron and drive another SSR to regulate the Bosch pump at idle. Once the turbo is making positive pressure and the engine is using some fuel the fuel pump pressure regulation is pretty much spot on.
     
  16. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Did a sprint event at Curbrough on the Bank Holiday Monday. Had some fun and the car came back in one piece so that was a plus. Wasn't sure what tyres to run as done Curbrough before and they were only 30 second runs so didn't have enough time to get any heat in the tyres. Different format on this event with a much longer lap and it was well warm in the afternoon, should really have put the track tyres on.
    Had a few issues with the Boost pipe popping of the throttle body so most of the time running 1.8 bar with the odd lap in the afternoon at 2 bar but it well hot then .Will be getting some ally beads welded on the TB. Temporarily fixed with tie wraps.
    Water injection worked fine, EGT's never went over 910 degrees ,and intake temps were sometimes lower than ambient and they were starting off around 60 degrees in the afternoon as the car was sitting in queues, CSF rad is a great piece of kit coolant temps never went over 95 degrees despite all the time sitting in queues and the slow average speed around the track.
    There were a good mix of cars there from a 3 wheel Morgan, Peugeot 206 GTI, M3 BMW, Nissan Skyline, Golf track cars etc.
    Fastest car of the day was a Kit car that looked like a small Caterham / Severn. Apparently 500Kg and a 200bhp FJ1200 bike engine in it, I was 0.4 seconds slower on my fastest lap and that was a 127.8.
    Tim Wybrow Stuart Taylor FJ1200 200BHP 500kKg.jpg

    DSC_5204.JPG

    image1.jpg

    An in car video off my phone using the Harrys lap timer app.

     
  17. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User TDi Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Did a track day at Donnington last week. Despite the weather forecast saying just a 5-10% chance of rain it was raining all the way there and only stopped around 09:00. It was a Javelin track day and there was a very good mix of cars. They also have a resident photographer on these Javelin track days now so got a few decent photos.

    48687377791_8b92cb0874_o.jpg

    Didn't record anything in the first session as it was still a drying track car was going very well though overtook 2 of the Nissan GTR's that were out on track at that time.
    Second session was a dry track, I let some air out of the tyres as I expected higher temps but should of let some more out though as the rear was getting skittish on the later laps.



    Last lap on that session thinking about coming in and I had a bit of a trip through the gravel at Schwantz / Mcleans.



    Unfortunately several pieces of gravel broke the passenger side window and the drivers side mirror along with a nice crack on the windscreen.

    DSC_5234.JPG

    Good job these are old cars, A replacement mirror cost me £17 delivered and picked up a complete window winder mech with glass for £30 from a VAG breakers just down the road. Really love how easy it is to change out things like the mirror, A 10 minute job to replace the complete item without having to remove door cards etc.

    DSC_5236.JPG

    The screen I will do through the insurance as it's MOT is due next month. The one on the car is the original and is going around the top edge anyway.
    Captured the spin on Ignitron as I was logging the session.

    donnington spin log.JPG

    You can see the two unloaded inside wheels partially lock up as I braked and kicked the ABS in. I look to have braked a little earlier than previous laps when still on the corner so Rookie mistake 1.
    Good news is I can run full boost all the time when on track with the water injection. Brakes are great, Engine and coolant temps well under control, coolant temps never went over 90 degrees and oil temps hit 110 max. just need some more practice to improve the driver.
     
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