Letter from the Police.. What next? Will I lose my license??

[Geordie Mike]

Andy, I'm with JamS3 & filipharvey here. As the things are very precisely worded, they are correct. With each question you ask (reading this all in one go) you highlight some of the ambiguity (and in my opinion a misinterpretation), certainly on the driving without due care and attention. But the point still stands... You would be charged with a breach of the Road Traffic Act, with the evidence of the crap driving coming from whatever the numpty has done:

"Although failure to comply with the other rules of the Code will not, it itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under Traffic Acts to establish liability."

The highway code merely repeats some of the Road Traffic Acts (the bit about speed limits etc. wasn't set by the HC, so you're not just falling foul of the HC but the roud traffic act too. There has been no parliamentary act passed making the content of the highway code law.

Mike

 

[AndyMac]

I never said the highway code was law. Comments were made about driving in breach of the highway code which you cannot be prosecuted for, which are clearly wrong, because you can be. If you want to be pedantic and say such acts are not in the road traffic act, then you're just arguing about symantics, ultimately you can and will be prosecuted if the act is witnessed by the police and they deem you put other road users at risk. The road traffic act cannot list all the stupid things people will get up to on the road, but the catchall of driving without due care & attention takes care of everything that is not specifically listed.
There is no law that states you can't swerve all over the road to warm your tyres up but if the police witnessed it you could be prosecuted etc etc.
I'm not saying you would be prosecuted, but you certainly could be prosecuted. To say you cannot be prosecuted is just so obviously incorrect.

 

[golf]

I hate cyclists in London, they think they're the kings of the roads, whereas they are really ordinary men wearing very tight shorts.

A cheeky **** had the audacity to go through a red on a busy junction on Seven Sisters Road, and then hurl a barrage of abuse at a motorist who almost rammed into him, because of his own failure to follow traffic signals.

 

[ManicMunky]

I would say going all the way around in the left lane woud constitute dangerous driving...

 

[AndyMac]

Thankyou - finally someone with their head screwed on.
But apparently you CANNOT be prosecuted for it!

 

[JamS3]

No way dangerous whatsoever!

There is no way you would ever get a prosecution for dangerous driving by doing that in court, I would put my car and salary on it.

 

[JamS3]

I dealt with a case where someone was not looking where they were going whist driving (floor roof anywhere but forward), dangerous you would THINK (the key word being THINK here as that is what people are doing, it is their opinions. However courts and results are based on fact not what people think, everybody has different opinions however it does not work like that).

Anyway this person left the road and unfortunately killed a motorist at the side of the road changing their wheel. Just because they were not looking where they were going, it was easily avoidable.

Went to court and person was convicted of death by CARELESS driving, Crown Prosecution said a momentary laspse of concentration contributed to it along with the collision investigation reports.

To have a dangerous driving charge it has to be something exceptional to warrant a prosecution, NOT going all the way round in the left hand lane on a roundabout i'm afraid. If people think that is dangerous then thats deluded i'm afraid.

There is NO offence of turning right on a roundabout in the left lane.

Andy find the offence and post it here I challenge you!

Find the SPECIFIC offence of turning right on a roundabout in the left hand lane.

If you look at the Highway Code sec 163 it actually advises you to LOOK OUT for vehicles incorrectly positioned on a roundabout but there is NO LAW subsection underneath it to show what laws you contravene if you do it like other sections.

Just like not indicating at roundabout, corners etc NO OFFENCE

 

[silver75]

Oh and Silver i'm def not having a go just some friendly banter with Andy and hopefully giving you some more ammo and trying to work things out for you!

lol no probs man, to be honest Im still not 100% clear as to who is meant to give way in this sort of situation, so its good to have both sides of the argument....

...anyway I have just been talking to the lady from the Met police who sent me the letter.

She asked to give my side of the story which I did. She says that that the cyclist was not hurt and just had a few grazes and bruises that come with falling off a bike etc.

I asked if i will need to go court or if any charges will be brought against me... She says she will wait for my insurance documents and then take it from there, she also said that she doesnt think they will be taking things further and hopefully will just be a case of exchanging insurance details with the cyclist..

Anyway thanks again people for your help and advice...

Silver mate, you are going to jail!, becareful if you drop the soap in the showers haha.

except you

 

[AndyMac]

"To have a dangerous driving charge it has to be something exceptional to warrant a prosecution, NOT going all the way round in the left hand lane on a roundabout i'm afraid. If people think that is dangerous then thats deluded i'm afraid."

It's pretty dangerous if it results in a death and is witnessed by the police or a number of other drivers. i.e. HGV doing it, which results in a small car getting trapped underneath the lorry.
What exactly do you not understand about specific offences that are illegal (speeding, jumping red lights etc), and other offences that are not directly illegal but would still result in a prosecution if they were either witnessed by the police or caused another car to swerve/have an accident and therefore a complaint was made?
The road traffic act covers all the obvious offences that are easily policed and can be easily proved in a court of law.
Everything else is covered under driving without due care or dangerous driving. All these offences have to be witnessed in order to be proved, so not as cut and dried as speeding. Having said that you can be caught speeding by the police and not necessarily prosecuted.
I really don't know why you continue to defend the stupid statement you made earlier saying you CANNOT be prosecuted for this. Of course you can, although if you're just being as pedantic as I think you are, then yes you can't be prosecuted for driving around a roundabout in the wrong lane, but you can be prosecuted for the same offence under driving without due care.
As said earlier this is just symantics but the end result is the same.

 

[JamS3]

Andy

Like i said before I have specific knowledge and tranining in law so believe me i know what i'm talking about.

I'm glad you said "its pretty dangerous if it results in a death" because this is just a example of a persons opinion, the act itself could have been a pure total accident with noone at fault and because someone dies it becomes dangerous? No.

It must be prosecuted because someone dies, no!

Some things can be total accidents I'm sure you are aware.

Its easy to sit and think up scenarios but like I said HARD evidence that a act is dangerous which has to pass a prosecution guideline test in order to progress to court.

Doing the roundabout thing is not DANGEROUS irrespective of what happens death or not. Sounds harsh but thats the simple truth.

Its the ACT that gets prosecuted not the OUTCOME, people can't seem to grasp this.

Now going through a red light at 100mph without stopping, thats dangerous and would certainly proceed to court.

No police officer worth his/her salt would ever prosecute someone for not correctly using a lane on a roundabout unless exceptional circumstances apply. If they wanted to it would certainly get looked at long and hard by their supervision (Sgt or Inspector) who have to authorise it anyway.

By exceptional circumstances i mean serious injury or death, before you say see I told you that you could get prosecuted there would have to be aggravating factors such as dangerous/careless driving along with the driving in the incorrect lane.

The CANNOT be prosecuted was always referred to the scenario where no collision or injury/death happens as there would be nothing to prosecute.

Things have to be in the public interest to proceed to court and even IF police officer and their supervision agreed on the above example (no collision injury or death just using wrong lane going right) then I would bet money the CPS would not run it as not in the public interest, a total waste of money hence NO PROSECUTION.

Just because people witness things and make complaints does not mean someone is prosecuted. Complainants are often visited and advised things such as "well thats not a offence or one that would be run by the CPS".

Anyway thats the last I'm saying on the matter as its getting boring now!

 

[AndyMac]

Thank god for that! So you CAN be prosecuted, thankyou.

 

[JamS3]

This is the last word...

Driving round a roundabout in the wrong lane with no collision/injury

NO (like you eventually admit above)

Just like you thought the highway code was law when its not and you eventually realised that!

 

[AndyMac]

Still can't admit you're wrong though can you?
Please quote me where I said the Highway Code was law, I'd be ever so interested.

 

[batwad]

 

[Bash_A3]

love that pic, though i actually got shunned on a forum for posting it once!

 

[AndyMac]

Rather a retarded winner than a retarded loser

 

[TDI-line]

Hey, where's my post gone.

 

[silver75]

love that pic, though i actually got shunned on a forum for posting it once!

PC GONE MAD!

 

[jojo]

except you

I love you really....

 

[FactionOne]

Hey Mr S,

Only just spotted this one. Sorry to hear about your spot of bother mate...

I spent many years cycling regularly (although I'm a bit more reliant on my car now!) - and I always knew you should be diligent in how you behave on the road. From things that have happened to mates I'd say that most of the time it's a mistake or incorrect behaviour on the road that causes accidents, but as they're classed as pedestrians the law doesn't penalise them as much as it would a motorist. That said though (and on top of what the rest have said) - I don't think this will turn out to be the case of the century. It's a minor accident with his word against yours, and you already know (after he said you didn't stop when you actually did) that his word isn't the best. The police will be fully aware of that and as they've said most likely push some paperwork around and then let it drop.

Hope it comes good for you fella,

Rob.

 

[ManicMunky]

There doesn't have to be a collision for an incident to occur.

The act of driving around the outside of the roundabout is akin to cutting someone up, and would likely involve them taking evasive action and emergancy braking due to the poor driving on display.

If that's no dangerous in your view, I'd hate to come across you while driving.

 

[shineydave]

i have a mate who'll never use his right hand again and will always walk with a limp due to some tit end going right in the left hand lane of a roundabout, try telling him it's not dangerous. i suspect he'll show you he still has full functionality in his left hand.............

 

[ManicMunky]

here, here!

 

[doeboy]

08:28......hm..not quite dawn, oh well....

HANDBAGS! get yer HANDBAGS!

 

[JamS3]

Once again we are talking about VIEWS, the whole arguement was never about what people thought it was about fact and whether you would get prosecuted or not.

Of course people may think it is dangerous and are rightly entitled to do so but in a court there is no way on this earth that is would be classed as such, have you not read my post with numerous examples of poor driving which have never got anywhere near a dangerous conviction in court.

Oh and my driving is fine by the way....being a ex racer and advanced driver thanks!

 

[ManicMunky]

are we allowed ones with bricks?