Leshkin's Sepang Blue S3 Money Pit Project

[miltybilty]

That's interesting because mine is on std and it has a huge delay when letting the brake off and just bogs down ....then picks up and goes manic. But by that time you may as well just floor it from a standing start and forget TC. That said i don't think i have tried it since i went 2+ as i worry about the drive train especially having already had to fit a new Diff :-(

Well most people that have the DSG In NA will map it when they tune it, so that it can handle the extra power .... It changes the clutch clamping pressure as well which helps with launching and shifts as well as longevity of the tran.

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[miltybilty]

Had some fun with the car last night...

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Me like ....

Also I heard the other vids including flyby and manual takeoff .... Plain & simple goodness

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[paddy]

Milty
I have an apr map and i am pretty sure the torque limit is set by the engine map. i have never heard of a DSG not delivering full torque even on stg2+ because of "clamping pressure" why would you have an adjustable clamping pressure and not set it to max, its not like the clamping pressure is your torque limiter ?

 

[Moxy89]

Milty
I have an apr map and i am pretty sure the torque limit is set by the engine map. i have never heard of a DSG not delivering full torque even on stg2+ because of "clamping pressure" why would you have an adjustable clamping pressure and not set it to max, its not like the clamping pressure is your torque limiter ?

Well you’re wrong babe, at stage 1 my box was cutting torque. It’s fine though as we all can’t be right all the time! Just myself

 

[leshkin]

Yeah, TCU does have the ability to limit torque. It also does this to a point when the engine can barely move the car if the dsg overheats. Stock software is designed for a much less spowerful/torquey engine, but the box itself is able to handle much more, hence the market for aftermarket TCU software.

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[paddy]

Lesh
The overheat on the box cuts about 99% of torque, it has no middle ground its not really a torque limiter as an on/off switch.
this is an excert from APR
All too often TCU upgrades are sold as a solution to "torque limiters" in which many companies charge extra to raise. While some companies may have trouble with torque interventions from the transmission, even at stage I power and torque levels, APR ECU upgrades do not require a TCU upgrade to meet advertised peak torque levels. APR does not charge extra to "raise the limits." Raising the limits does not increase performance and does not increase the transmission’s ability to hold more torque. The maximum torque limiters are simply removed, allowing customers unrestricted operation. In the event torque is limited by the factory clutches, upgraded units may be installed and torque may be increased without TCU intervention.

The torque limiter is applied by cutting torque from the engine, if you have a cheap and nasty map like poor old Maxy then it may not have altered the torque parameters however he wasted his money on the box map if he thinks that solved his torque issues (Sorry Maxy babe ! no easy way to let you down) xx
Pretty sure i read somewhere torque was cut by cutting boost but i may be wrong.

 

[Moxy89]

Lesh
The overheat on the box cuts about 99% of torque, it has no middle ground its not really a torque limiter as an on/off switch.
this is an excert from APR
All too often TCU upgrades are sold as a solution to "torque limiters" in which many companies charge extra to raise. While some companies may have trouble with torque interventions from the transmission, even at stage I power and torque levels, APR ECU upgrades do not require a TCU upgrade to meet advertised peak torque levels. APR does not charge extra to "raise the limits." Raising the limits does not increase performance and does not increase the transmission’s ability to hold more torque. The maximum torque limiters are simply removed, allowing customers unrestricted operation. In the event torque is limited by the factory clutches, upgraded units may be installed and torque may be increased without TCU intervention.

The torque limiter is applied by cutting torque from the engine, if you have a cheap and nasty map like poor old Maxy then it may not have altered the torque parameters however he wasted his money on the box map if he thinks that solved his torque issues (Sorry Maxy babe ! no easy way to let you down) xx
Pretty sure i read somewhere torque was cut by cutting boost but i may be wrong.

Who the hell is Maxy ??? Btw how your rotors ?

 

[leshkin]

Lesh
The overheat on the box cuts about 99% of torque, it has no middle ground its not really a torque limiter as an on/off switch.
this is an excert from APR
All too often TCU upgrades are sold as a solution to "torque limiters" in which many companies charge extra to raise. While some companies may have trouble with torque interventions from the transmission, even at stage I power and torque levels, APR ECU upgrades do not require a TCU upgrade to meet advertised peak torque levels. APR does not charge extra to "raise the limits." Raising the limits does not increase performance and does not increase the transmission’s ability to hold more torque. The maximum torque limiters are simply removed, allowing customers unrestricted operation. In the event torque is limited by the factory clutches, upgraded units may be installed and torque may be increased without TCU intervention.

The torque limiter is applied by cutting torque from the engine, if you have a cheap and nasty map like poor old Maxy then it may not have altered the torque parameters however he wasted his money on the box map if he thinks that solved his torque issues (Sorry Maxy babe ! no easy way to let you down) xx
Pretty sure i read somewhere torque was cut by cutting boost but i may be wrong.

I've seen this APR marketing bumf before and it may be correct for some tuners, but here's the thing, clamping pressure is an adjustable setting that can be changed as part of a TCU map, but that is not the control mechanism of how a TCU limits torque. All that is achieved by increased clamping pressure is the effective maximum torque that can be sent through the clutch pack and reduce the chance of it slipping. That's it as far as I know.

As far as how the TCU can limit torque goes, then it does have the ability to intervene in how the ECU functions as part of normal operation - overheating self-preservation situation is one of them and the effect of that is very drastic - DSG limp mode. Even APR's own TCU upgrade package mentions factory torque intervention limiters that it adjusts, so it's not a all or nothing affair and the TCU has the ability to hold the ECU back in very subtle ways if these limits are being breached. I'm pretty sure that the limits in question are not all set to a specific level at which they are triggered, but there are moving averages or rate of increase limits also, so the way some tuners, including APR, can avoid the TCU map requirement as part of ECU remap is by controlling the rate at which torque is delivered as part of the ECU map. That's where the art of tuning comes in I guess - most of the drive-by/driveway mappers don't know how to do or can't be bothered to understand it as punters still pay them the same 150 quid to put crap maps on their cars.

There are many methods to handling these things and that's where good maps differ from rubbish ones. R-Tech TCU maps introduce things like micro-clutch slip to reduce stresses on components as well as improve traction, but this is getting into the weeds of how these things are actually done and one of the main reasons why we'll never see a tuner jump on to one of these treads and explain it to us noobs in detail... It's simple - they are protecting their know-how and experience. Otherwise the same drive-by mapper jockeys can copy what APR/R-Tech/etc have spent months or years researching and perfecting.

 

[leshkin]

Here is what Niki from R-Tech had to say about this conversation to add some weight to my uneducated mumblings ...

"Spot on TCU can control torque to the tarmac in a number of ways. CAN singal to ECU cutting the timing out put at a certain frequency, or it can stop loading up the pressure to the packs. They can clamp 19bar clutch pressure if needed, but then it's very harsh like a rally dog box. Lowest possible pressure with fastest possible ramp rate to the peak pressure is key to refined dsg control. Most of my performance testing has been on the drag strip with the dsg"

Here's a vid of one of his customers doing the needful at Santa Pod (DSG Mk6 Golf R - same as an 8P S3 for those who don't know) :

 

[paddy]

Who the hell is Maxy

who the hell is babe ?

 

[Moxy89]

who the hell is babe ?

Let’s not spam his thread now...

Add me on MySpace or bebo if we need any further conversations!

 

[paddy]

I wasnt spamming this thread actually, i was hoping to gain a little knowledge from Lesh which i have while contemplating getting my box mapped, couldn't be more on topic as it happens then some weirdo turns up and tells me his box cant even cope with stg1 and he knows best and calls me his babe. Quite a common tactic used by trolls. Snowflake works as well as does Gammon i here if you really want to wind people up.

 

[Moxy89]

I wasnt spamming this thread actually, i was hoping to gain a little knowledge from Lesh which i have while contemplating getting my box mapped, couldn't be more on topic as it happens then some weirdo turns up and tells me his box cant even cope with stg1 and he knows best and calls me his babe. Quite a common tactic used by trolls. Snowflake works as well as does Gammon i here if you really want to wind people up.

My engine was mapped, torque limiter on the box was holding the car right back and killing all torque, I then had the box mapped and all of these issues disappeared. So yes the box does have a torque limiter and will hold back power. And simple answer is yes get your Box mapped, best mod I done

 

[leshkin]

I know I keep banging-on about how good R-Tech is, but this goes to show...

The man and his team know their trade and have true passion for their work.

I just pinged him on FB to confirm if what I was saying was actually true

 

[miltybilty]

Heres an idea .... I've not much experience, but I wouldn't always trust APR to be honest .... I've seen lots of threads on there products and support that aren't very complimentary to say the least.

Most companies suggest you get a TCU tune when tuning your ECU ....

Why then would APR be counter culture and say you don't need to, but still offer a TCU tune if you want .... Seems odd.

APR has come a long way and I think is managed better there now. Tunes are safer and such.

It would be a good idea to get there TCU map to match your tune Paddy.

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[miltybilty]

I know I keep banging-on about how good R-Tech is, but this goes to show...

View attachment 166304

The man and his team know their trade and have true passion for their work.

This ^^

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[paddy]

I think the point is not everyone has access to a guru like R-tech. many of us have to buy off the shelf and are quite happy with what we have. Lets face it if you have Revo. AMD, R-tech or APR fitted you are going to be saying yours is the best it human nature but really we don't know any more than what we are told. The answer is probably along the lines of " if you are happy then that's all that really matters"
Lesh has a seriously quick car, looks fantastic (the car) and like me gets a kick out of not needing to spend £50k to run the latest model. Really thats all that matters and his money is really well spent for those returns.
Today i found out how fast my car goes exactly the same speed as a new Maserati Granturismo at least from 20 -100 anyway
You know how you follow someone and they keep dropping back from the car in front then accelerating back up his exhaust ? well this guy was doing this for about 10 miles in front of me until we came to a good open dual carriageway and he floored it off the roundabout, as i was expecting, so there i was right with him in sport ready to go and we could have been tied together....lol I couldn't pull up on him and he couldn't pull away..
My good old 7 year old S3 did well against his new £110k italian job ....bet he was a bit peeved though
Happy days

 

[Moxy89]

I think the point is not everyone has access to a guru like R-tech. many of us have to buy off the shelf and are quite happy with what we have. Lets face it if you have Revo. AMD, R-tech or APR fitted you are going to be saying yours is the best it human nature but really we don't know any more than what we are told. The answer is probably along the lines of " if you are happy then that's all that really matters"
Lesh has a seriously quick car, looks fantastic (the car) and like me gets a kick out of not needing to spend £50k to run the latest model. Really thats all that matters and his money is really well spent for those returns.
Today i found out how fast my car goes exactly the same speed as a new Maserati Granturismo at least from 20 -100 anyway
You know how you follow someone and they keep dropping back from the car in front then accelerating back up his exhaust ? well this guy was doing this for about 10 miles in front of me until we came to a good open dual carriageway and he floored it off the roundabout, as i was expecting, so there i was right with him in sport ready to go and we could have been tied together....lol I couldn't pull up on him and he couldn't pull away..
My good old 7 year old S3 did well against his new £110k italian job ....bet he was a bit peeved though
Happy days

Totally agree... however many people have been else where before r tech and noticed the gains. I for one spent money mapping else where and then took the jump to R tech and the difference was out of this world. There is a reason why he is fully booked with nothing but the tfsi engine day in and day out. But as long as your happy that’s all that matters. And yes alexi car is porn an amazing build

 

[paddy]

Maybe i should send R-Tech my chart and see what they say and if they can improve on it ?

 

[leshkin]

I doubt it will be as clear-cut as improving the peak, but would be interesting what Niki says about it. Your S is a very high Stg2+peak number, so not sure how far it can be pushed, but from what I have seen he tends to map for mid-range rather then peak number as that makes a faster car. Plus there are so many other things that make a good map, like how it delivers the power/torque, etc...

Without stating the obvious, but it's important to consider is that each dyno is going to be calibrated slightly differently, so it's key to see the before and after graphs to better gauge any improvement on the day rather than comparing results from different dynos from different times as there are way to many variables to consider.

 

[paddy]

TBH i wouldn't want to change anything, i was just showing an APR map for ref: I like the almost straight climb in BHP, often you see the peak BHP as a 10-20bhp blip at 7k
As i have mentioned i am from the bike world and a almost straight climb in Torque and BHP is pretty much ideal on a 4 stroke but i don't know if that applies to cars but it would be interesting to hear a view other than the APR view.
I think i will go for the APR DSG map as its designed to work with the APR ECU map if nothing else . not cheap though at £600 with vat

 

[Rob C]

TBH i wouldn't want to change anything, i was just showing an APR map for ref: I like the almost straight climb in BHP, often you see the peak BHP as a 10-20bhp blip at 7k
As i have mentioned i am from the bike world and a almost straight climb in Torque and BHP is pretty much ideal on a 4 stroke but i don't know if that applies to cars but it would be interesting to hear a view other than the APR view.
I think i will go for the APR DSG map as its designed to work with the APR ECU map if nothing else . not cheap though at £600 with vat

Am I right in thinking you've said you went for an APR map because they are designed to work without A DSG map? But now you're saying you're going to get an APR map for your DSG? I don't see your logic...

 

[paddy]

I don't have a clue where you got that from ? I went APR on recommendations on here from Ju who had an APR stg2+ S3 and who i have known from my 3.2 days 10 years ago.
As far as i know all Stg1-2 and 2+ maps from any tuning house are designed to work without a DSG map, the DSG map is quite separate however i would imagine APR maps are designed to work together but again i would expect any DSG map to work with any ECU map..

 

[Rob C]

Must have got the wrong end of the stick.

So what would you gain from a DSG map?

 

[mechanic69]

Must have got the wrong end of the stick.

So what would you gain from a DSG map?

Quicker changes, removes torque limiter


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[paddy]

• User definable APR pre-optimized shift patterns based on current stage of engine performance
• User definable launch control RPM
• User definable manual mode max RPM
• User definable manual mode automatic upshift on or off
• User definable manual mode automatic downshift on or off (Kickdown switch)

APR will adjust any mismatch between Engine Control Unit (ECU) and TCU max RPM or standing rev limiters, should any conflicts arise.

http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/tcu_upgrade_dq250_exx_fxx.html

 

[miltybilty]

• User definable APR pre-optimized shift patterns based on current stage of engine performance
• User definable launch control RPM
• User definable manual mode max RPM
• User definable manual mode automatic upshift on or off
• User definable manual mode automatic downshift on or off (Kickdown switch)

APR will adjust any mismatch between Engine Control Unit (ECU) and TCU max RPM or standing rev limiters, should any conflicts arise.

http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/tcu_upgrade_dq250_exx_fxx.html

Seems like they have quite a good TCU map .... And super adjustable .... I think you'll quite like it.

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[leshkin]

Last week, I had to take the car for MOT and given that the front brake disks were starting to look a bit tired after a bit of abuse over the last couple of years, I thought it would be a good time to change them.

Before I started on the brakes though, I spent a fair amount of time reorganising the garage - with the weather becoming less cooperative, I decided to do some cleaning and sorting the crud on some of the storage shelves along the sides of the garage to allow for easier jacking up of the car inside the garage, which would allow me to continue to work on the car in any weather.


But seeing as it was still nice weather on the day, I managed to get the work done outside - provably for the last time this year


I went for the same 356mm Yellow Sport Racing disks that came with my BBK originally to avoid any offset issues. These came without center bells as you're meant to reuse your originals. Given that the existing bell nuts and bolts were quite rusty, it was nice to see a brand new set included with the new disks! They even come pre-treated with locktite, which was nice.


The existing disks have developed a rather large lip, with slots being quite shallow by this point, plus the middle section of the disk braking surface starting to develop micro-fractures. I do not blame this issue on the disks - I tried some brake anti-squeal paste during the last pad replacement and this managed to get on to the pistons, which restricted their travel and resulted in the pads sticking a little, which caused mild overheating. VRT applied the paste, but given that it's not a common request I don't blame them for this mistake - I've fed that back to them and will be a bit more specific in the future.


BTW, the anti-squeal paste I used was quite effective with noise reduction, but you have to be careful with how much you apply.

It forms a rubbery layer between the pad and brake piston and reduces the amount of pad movement over the piston, thus the squeal goes away.

Anyway, with the old disks out, I went about setting the disks on to the brake bells, which was a bit tedious due to number of nuts and bolts and having to use the torque wrench to do each one. Oh and if anyone cares, the torque setting for these bolts is 19nm - I couldn't find this in the manual that came with the kit or online, so I had to ask Tegiwa for clarification on that.



As my Mintex M1155 pads were on the car for less than 2k miles, it felt like a massive waste of money to be replacing them with the disks, which is normally the recommended way. I used a hand sander to refresh and even the pad braking surface and put them back on with the new disks (Top pad is the refreshed one, if it's not obvious)...



I cleaned up the caliper pistons from any residue left over from the anti-squeal paste to allow them to move more freely, followed by all the brake hardware getting a thorough clean and copper grease to make sure that the pads could retract smoothly.



Overall it took a few hours to complete the job, but it was more because I took my time making sure that everything is cleaned, greased and working properly. I know that the calipers are looking rather filthy and one of my winter jobs will be to get them professionally painted as it's the one thing that is still nagging me about the car

Oh, she passed her MOT with flying colours, which was nice.

 

[paddy]

Personally i would never change the pads and discs at the same time again after my last experience with the J hooks.so i think you have done the right thing. either use a well glazed disc with your new pads or a glazed pad with your new disc but not a rough disc with a rough pad. you simply get pad material build up on the disc, transfer than takes place between the disc and pad/pad and disc and this can be uneven and create hot spots on the disc, this creates different braking coefficients round the disc and gives the impression the disc is warped although they very rarely are.

 

[leshkin]

Another quick update from yesterday - I bought a Q3 climate controller a few months back, but only now got round to fitting it...

Pretty straightforward affair:


Shaved the sides down with a hand sander (this thing is damn useful! ) and refitted everything...


Really like how it looks!


I haven't coded the seat heating yet, but that seems like a very simple task wiht VCDS, so will give it a go tonight maybe.

I also took a look at the controller PCB and it looks like all of the red lighting is done by red, surface-mounted LEDs, which would be pretty simple job to desolder the originals and replace with white LEDs of similar size, so might give it a go at some point in the future.

 

[paddy]

Good move Lesh
The heated seat buttons are streets ahead of the old roller wheel, coded mine and dropped the top heat temp but i dont know how necessary that is as i get the impression the top setting drops of its own accord after a while ?

PS love your white stitched knee rest things .....if only i was rich

 

[ch1z64]

1 haven't coded the seat heating yet, but that seems like a very simple task wiht VCDS, so will give it a go tonight maybe..

 

[ch1z64]

1 haven't coded the seat heating yet, but that seems like a very simple task wiht VCDS, so will give it a go tonight maybe..
View attachment 167788

All Credit to Mechanic69

 

[samisnake]

 

[leshkin]

Haha, that's when she smoked like crazy

 

[tcardio]

ok the above video is so unfair to the country on the other side of the pond! We are a Q country and so sad. Euro Audi is pure sex! PERIOD

 

[leshkin]

A quick update on what the S3 has been up to for those that are still following this... My daughter, wife and I decided to do a family road trip to Europe mainland right after Christmas. It was all a bit last minute, but with route planned and hotels booked along the way as well as a list of places we wanted to visit, the three of us set off in the S3 on boxing day and spent the next 9 days traveling through France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Lichtenstein. We covered around 2000 miles in total, saw some amazing places and met the New Year in Zurich. Here are some of the photos from the trip...



Have to say that the modifications I made to the car only made the experience better. The only minor annoyance was the slightly open power valve as the sound, while still great, did make some of the longer legs on Autobahns a little tedious. It did sounds incredible while bouncing off the mountains and in the tunnels! I'm not sure how many Swiss speed traps I set off, but they didn't stop me on the way out to pay any fines, so hopefully dodged that one haha

The S dealt with heavy rain, fog, icy/snowy roads as well as many alpine passes with much ease and never felt out of its comfort zone. Even a couple of 150+mph Autobahn runs were dealt with ease. Oh, and no noticeable oil used. The two minor issues that I'm aware of is the NS front wheel bearing might need replacing as I noticed a slight speed-dependent humming coming from it at between 40-60mph when I was taking a break in the passenger seat while my wife took the reigns. The second is that one of the rear passenger doors has been stuck locked on occasion, so that will need to be investigated. Not bad for a car that's almost 10 years old

When we got home and recovered from the trip, the car was covered in a thick layer of dirt and I couldn't help myself and cleaned it as best I could:



I have to say that lately, I've been thinking about selling the S3 and replacing it with something more driver focused out of the box as we now have two cars and my wife's car can be the primary family car. This dual purpose was one of the original reasons why I got the sportback S3 in the first place. My thinking was that this would be a last big trip we took in the S3, but after last couple of weeks, I'm not sure I want to sell... Decisions, decisions...

 

[paddy]

The desision to sell is the easy bit, i have often done it. Finding something better is another matter.

 

[NL316]

Looked like an epic journey man!

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[THQuattro]

A quick update on what the S3 has been up to for those that are still following this... My daughter, wife and I decided to do a family road trip to Europe mainland right after Christmas. It was all a bit last minute, but with route planned and hotels booked along the way as well as a list of places we wanted to visit, the three of us set off in the S3 on boxing day and spent the next 9 days traveling through France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Lichtenstein. We covered around 2000 miles in total, saw some amazing places and met the New Year in Zurich. Here are some of the photos from the trip...

View attachment 172928 View attachment 172929 View attachment 172930 View attachment 172931 View attachment 172932 View attachment 172933

Have to say that the modifications I made to the car only made the experience better. The only minor annoyance was the slightly open power valve as the sound, while still great, did make some of the longer legs on Autobahns a little tedious. It did sounds incredible while bouncing off the mountains and in the tunnels! I'm not sure how many Swiss speed traps I set off, but they didn't stop me on the way out to pay any fines, so hopefully dodged that one haha

The S dealt with heavy rain, fog, icy/snowy roads as well as many alpine passes with much ease and never felt out of its comfort zone. Even a couple of 150+mph Autobahn runs were dealt with ease. Oh, and no noticeable oil used. The two minor issues that I'm aware of is the NS front wheel bearing might need replacing as I noticed a slight speed-dependent humming coming from it at between 40-60mph when I was taking a break in the passenger seat while my wife took the reigns. The second is that one of the rear passenger doors has been stuck locked on occasion, so that will need to be investigated. Not bad for a car that's almost 10 years old

When we got home and recovered from the trip, the car was covered in a thick layer of dirt and I couldn't help myself and cleaned it as best I could:
View attachment 172934 View attachment 172935 View attachment 172936 View attachment 172937 View attachment 172939
View attachment 172940 View attachment 172941

I have to say that lately, I've been thinking about selling the S3 and replacing it with something more driver focused out of the box as we now have two cars and my wife's car can be the primary family car. This dual purpose was one of the original reasons why I got the sportback S3 in the first place. My thinking was that this would be a last big trip we took in the S3, but after last couple of weeks, I'm not sure I want to sell... Decisions, decisions...

Looking great after its had some Tjscarcare products on it.