Leaders lie, civilians die, and lessons are ignored

[*Unkle*]

Is it just me, or is the cycle of violence backed by foreign leaders asking for "restraint" laughable, like both sides have been using F18’s and tanks. Where is the Worlds Middle East Envoy? Oh yes its Tony Blair who has disappeared off the face of the map while the Israeli’s and Palestinians kill each other.

Over a period of months they have turned off the water in Gazza, controlled the power supply, created an embargo on ships and only allowed trucks bringing in aid, food and medicine to move in when it suits.

In 8 years Hamas has fired indiscriminately into Israel (which is totally wrong) and less than 20 Israelis have been killed, in 8 years!! Over 350 have been killed in 3 days of bombing not including hundreds in "targeted" attacks in the last few years, is that proportionate? Israel has said it is because of Hamas, or, it is the fault of Hamas, the fault of the Arabs. Does Israel really think that killing hundreds of Palestinians will stop violence? NO, but its ruling party is about to start and election campaign against a right wing party ahead in the polls demanding a tougher line on the Arabs.

So the Kadima and Likud party are using the rhetoric we see over here regarding “tough on crime tough on the causes of crime” and the party that’s tough on crime, but the stakes in the Middle East are higher. This is the start of a political campaign to win votes in Israel, it has very little to do with the actual rocket attacks, and the killing of a few hundred Arabs is a price worth paying they think.

In the future?... Well the retaliatory attacks from Hamas we allow another attack from Israel and the cycle will continue…

Over the next few days you will hear:
"Targeted Strikes" Civilians were killed.
"Incursion into Palestinian territory" Invasion into another sovereign country.
"The Rules are Changing" We weren't abiding by the Geneva Convention or Un resolutions and we aren't starting now.
"Targeted Military Operation on Hamas Leaders" State Sponsored Assassination.

 

[voorhees]

I look at it and think its not that far away from the way the nazis treated the jews

 

[*Unkle*]

Its a terrible state of affairs,

But the press are complicit. I heard the Foreign Affairs Spokesman for Israeli say yesterday "Hamas took control in a ****** coup" and I thought, that’s funny they won elections (real elections in an Arab state) in many Palestinians areas to get majority share in the parliament. But the comment wasn't cross examined on the news, propaganda is pumped out unchallenged as the press don't want to be called anti Semitic.

 

[sidibear]

The way I see it, Hamas continued to strike against Israel during the ceasefire, which the Israelis' honoured. Now the ceasefire is over and Israel are firing back Hamas don't like it and have thrown their toys out of the pram. Also, launching missiles from Mosques and high civilian population areas and then complaining when they have these areas attacked is just basically their own fault.

Hamas is an acronym translating as "Islamic Resistance Movemment". Islam always refers to itself as a peace loving religeon, yet they are responsible for most of the terrorist attacks in the world.
Hamas is known as a terrorist organisation by a lot of the major countries.

 

[NHN]

Here we go Unkle & his

*** give it a rest, I come on here to talk about cars as I hear this crap day in day out online & tv, its a car site not a religious wall

But I will say Sidibear is right its funny how islam is regarded by muslims as peace love to all but flaunt it to there liking when they see fit, you notice I said regarded by muslims, most think its a very violent religion given terrorism commited these days is mostly in the name of Islam, talk about a cafeteria religion, getting quite fedup with it tbh, religion spurns all wars anyway & for me religion has no place in my life now or ever

 

[Silver Quattro]

suddenly every1 becomes an expert on another religion without knowing diddly squat about it to begin with apart from what the media says and then when it suits them the media is full of crap lol funi ppl we have here on this forum indeed,

if you dont like a topic its simple as abc dont click and then comment on it.

wonder what those small minded folk would do if this was happening to them in their own backyard...


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gs4mK_FEAjY

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ow1rjJ6kM

 

[abdus]

Islam always refers to itself as a peace loving religeon, yet they are responsible for most of the terrorist attacks in the world.

Islam is responsible for terrorist attacks? Where and how do you get that kind of **** in your mind?

So if tomorrow I get out, I claim to be Christian and do a terrorist attack, then Christianity is resposible for the terrorist attacks?

Your post just shows your hatred and biased opinion towards Islam.

Were you not the one that said if somone came in your country with planes etc...you would nuke them and their country?

Palestinians are only defending what is theirs...

But I will say Sidibear is right its funny how islam is regarded by muslims as peace love to all but flaunt it to there liking when they see fit, you notice I said regarded by muslims, most think its a very violent religion given terrorism commited these days is mostly in the name of Islam, talk about a cafeteria religion, getting quite fedup with it tbh, religion spurns all wars anyway & for me religion has no place in my life now or ever

so you seem to generalise a group of people and make them the example for a whole religion and people who follow that religion?

people who never think that terrorist attacks, bombings etc...are a good thing..people who always condemn terrorist attacks, are now violent?
I will say all whites are terrorists and racists if we take the KKK as an example, how about that?
terrorism committed in the name of Islam...you mentioned it yourself, but I guess you couldn't actually understand what you wrote.

Like it how you say you come here to talk about cars etc..., yet you take the time and reply to this post. There is a report button at the top of each post/thread...make the most out of it

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL

 

[*Unkle*]

Here we go Unkle & his

*** give it a rest, I come on here to talk about cars as I hear this crap day in day out online & tv, its a car site not a religious wall

But I will say Sidibear is right its funny how islam is regarded by muslims as peace love to all but flaunt it to there liking when they see fit, you notice I said regarded by muslims, most think its a very violent religion given terrorism commited these days is mostly in the name of Islam, talk about a cafeteria religion, getting quite fedup with it tbh, religion spurns all wars anyway & for me religion has no place in my life now or ever

(right click and save)

Haha I like it, you post a comment and pic of me (i suppose) then proceed to comment on the very same subject. You mention "religion having no place in your life" but you then categorize the people by religion, how weird is that. This has less to do with religion everday. (Personally I didn't mention religion in either of my posts anyway)

You may have come to the forum about cars but the title of this section is
General discussion: The place to chat about anything not related to cars, questions, music, current affairs, etc

If you don't like the topic discussed don't post or better still go start a thread about how exciting an A3 is, or fluffy kittens, or big brother... :thumbsup:

 

[NHN]

 

[EssVier]

Its a subject that is a tough one to tackle.

Religion has been the root and cause of pretty much every conflict since it began, but take away religion, technology, and mankind would still want to stove each other's heads in with what you can lay your hands on.
Human's are the biggest terrorists, the leaders playing us like pawns.
Why cant we just all get along. We are just One! Peace

 

[sidibear]

@Unkle, I agree, this area is General Discussion, we can chat about everything including cars in this bit:thumbsup:

Islam is responsible for terrorist attacks? Where and how do you get that kind of **** in your mind?

I have a Phd in psychology, granted my paper was on social cognitive science but I did read the Koran to get a better understanding of that particular religeons views towards the subject.
History speaks for itself, Islam is an agressive religeon.

Were you not the one that said if somone came in your country with planes etc...you would nuke them and their country?

Palestinians are only defending what is theirs...

I am all for people defending what is theirs, but there is a difference between acting like soldiers with codes of conducts and dressing like civilians with suicide bombs killing in the name of religeon.

I live in Birmingham next to Alum Rock. Muslims are a 75% majority here so most people I know are Muslim and followers of Islam, and we get on just fine. I respect their views and they respect mine, but it doesn't stop them trying to convert me to Islam. I have not once tried to convert them. In thier own admission they will not do anything to stop extremism that is rife in the Muslim community as it is part of their religeon.

So if tomorrow I get out, I claim to be Christian and do a terrorist attack, then Christianity is resposible for the terrorist attacks?

Only if you do it in the name of Christians

All religeous scripts are open to interpretation,its all down to the views of the individual.
Hamas are fighting in the name of Islam, as I have previously said, Hamas is an acronym that translates as Islamic Resistance Movement.
I haven't seen much involvement from the PLO yet though.

No one likes terrorist attacks because they are very rarely targetted at opposing forces, they are designed to bring awareness to the terrorists cause by killing the innocent and blaming the other side for their actions, thus turning the innocents against the opposing forces.

As for the KKK. The Ku Klux Klan was an organisation started to help the white underpriviliged and farmers fight back against the newly created black organisations towards the end of the American Civil war. The alledged purpose was to scare the god fearing blacks by dressing up as ghosts of dead confederate soldiers. And as with all things, extremism started to take over.

 

[*Unkle*]

Personally I don't believe Islam is anymore an aggressive religion than some of the others. The Christian Knights Templar, the Pope sanctioning William of Orange. But remember this has nothing to do with religion.

This is one state attacking another in a billion dollar bomb dropping exercise paid for by America. Israel doesn't make F18 or Hellfire missiles, the bombs dropped don't completely disintegrate the casings sometimes get found by children, young men and Hamas and "made in the USA" (not literally) on the side is not a good policy to be backing by the west or USA.

Israel's promise to "root out terror" – be it of the PLO, Hizbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Iranian but it won't work. "War to the bitter end," the Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, has promised in Gaza. Its stupid rhetoric that will be forgotten when the reservists go home after another street war ending with many soldiers and civilians killed...

And we worry about whether Woolworths should be saved

 

[voorhees]

If you don't like the topic discussed don't post or better still go start a thread about how exciting an A3 is, or fluffy kittens, or big brother... :thumbsup:

well said

religion is the biggest killer...that said if it wasn't religion us humans would fight over hair colour or cars etc.

 

[sidibear]

Just because the weapons are bought from the USA doesn't mean that they are fiananced by the USA. Is Russia financing Hamas because they use AK47's ?
The worlds arms market doesn't have a conscience, they sell to whoever is buying.

The splinter bombs you refer to are designed to break up runways not be thrown at towns and cilivilans. But then during the Kosovan war I remember seeing Mujahideen fighters setting off an air to air missile balanced on rocks by hitting it with a hammer, and hitting a Russian tank half a mile away.
Oh, and what religeon where the Mujahideen fighting for?

They were armed and financed by the USA as a way of "anti Russian" involvement.
And once Russia had thrown in the towel and sodded off back home they started to fight each other over who should rule. A splinter group that was formed became the Taliban.
Another group recently admitted the Mumbai bombings.

Anyone seeing a pattern of violence emerging here?

 

[abdus]

I have a Phd in psychology, granted my paper was on social cognitive science but I did read the Koran to get a better understanding of that particular religeons views towards the subject.
History speaks for itself, Islam is an agressive religeon.

islam is a religion...anyway..how does history conclude that Islam is an agressive religion? Since you have read the Quran, show me where you can conclude that it is an aggresive religion?

I am all for people defending what is theirs, but there is a difference between acting like soldiers with codes of conducts and dressing like civilians with suicide bombs killing in the name of religeon.

each to their own. (not that I condone suicide bombers) you do with whatever you have...that's their way of retaliating since they don't have airstrie possibilities

Only if you do it in the name of Christians

my point is: if I do something in the name of Christianity, that doesn't mean I'm a Christian and that I'm representing them. just because I did it 'in the name of Christianity'...we can't generalise.


Anyway, I'm in no way defending Hamas or suicide bombers here...anywhee in the world...whatever religion/race etc....

and to make a happy reading for MHN, my car has a boost leak

 

[abdus]

Just because the weapons are bought from the USA doesn't mean that they are fiananced by the USA. Is Russia financing Hamas because they use AK47's ?

the same logic goes: Is Islam responsible because Hamas is fighting in the 'name of Islam'?

Anyone seeing a pattern of violence emerging here?

that can also be said for many many other countries and groups...these patterns are everywhere...You are just pointing to the one you don't like.

 

[*Unkle*]

Sorry I don't see the pattern of violence, I see Millions of religious people of Islamic or Abrahamic faiths and while some are wrongly guided by aggression more are completely peaceful, doing no harm to anyone. The Hellfire missiles are standard weapons made by Boeing, I'm not saying it right or wrong, but in the future America will wonder why it came back to bite them. And i'm sorry to say but the US has been funding Israel in many ways militarily for years



In a UK paper today this amusing take on the war...


Condoleezza Rice, having observed that more than 300 Gazans were dead, said: "We are deeply concerned about the escalating violence. We strongly condemn the attacks on Israel and hold Hamas responsible."
Someone should ask her to comment on teenage knife-crime, to see if she'd say: "I strongly condemn the people who've been stabbed, and until they abandon their practice of wandering around clutching their sides and bleeding, there is no hope for peace."
The Israeli government suffers terribly from this confusion.
The gap between the might of Israel's F-16 bombers and Apache helicopters, and the Palestinians' catapulty thing is so ridiculous that to try and portray the situation as between two equal sides requires the imagination of a children's story writer.
The reporter on News at Ten said the rockets "may be ineffective, but they ARE symbolic." So they might not have weapons but they have got symbolism, the canny brutes.
It's no wonder the Israeli Air Force had to demolish a few housing estates, otherwise Hamas might have tried to mock Israel through a performance of expressive dance.
The rockets may be unable to to kill on the scale of the Israeli Air Force, said one spokesman, but they are "intended to kill".
Maybe he went on: "And we have evidence that Hamas supporters have dreams, and that in these dreams bad things happen to Israeli citizens, they burst, or turn into cactus, or run through Woolworths naked, so it's not important whether it can happen, what matters is that they WANT it to happen, so we blew up their university."
Or there's the outrage that Hamas has been supported by Iran. Well that's just breaking the rules. Because say what you will about the Israelis, they get no arms supplies or funding or political support from a country that's more powerful than them, they just go their own way and make all their weapons in an arts and crafts workshop in Jerusalem.



Anyway its New Years day in New Zealand and i'm still at work

 

[sidibear]

You are just pointing to the one you don't like.

Really? Where do I say I don't like Islam as a religion? (bloddy spel chickers) I didn't say it states anywhere in the Koran that Islam is an agressive religion, its my own interpretation.
History does show though, that the majority of wars are caused by religion, and Islam is behind a lot of them.
Unlike you perhaps I didn't look into the numorous ways of reading the Koran, I didn't study Arabic first and I never read it with a rhythm. I read the suras in the order they appeared. To be honest its not the easiest thing to read because of its structure. I had a lot of assistance from my good friend Raqueeb, who has studied Islamic Science for the last 15 years in a hope to understand the Koran better, and even he says it is a science in itself to fully understand it. Perhaps leads an idea into why it is so open to misinterpretation. He does however, agree with my views on the aggression.

I take it you have read it? What are your views on the way it is written?

Is Islam responsible because Hamas is fighting in the 'name of Islam'?

If the innocent followers of Islam agree with Hamas then yes. If they refuse to do anything about it, or even distance themselves from it then yes. No Clerics have come forward to condone the actions of Hamas.No Islamic countries have condoned the actions. They are however queuing up to condone Israel. Is this the start of anti semetic feelings once again just like in the 1940's?

Boost leak? Split hose?

 

[voorhees]

Boost leak? Split hose?

LMFAO very subtle

 

[thesenator]

Hamas now plans major suicide attacks inside Israel. The group actually warned Muslims who are foreign citizens to leave Israel immediately: http://samsonblinded.org/news/hamas-warned-muslims-to-flee-israel-5473

 

[*Unkle*]

Obama is screwed as the US would say


A fait accompli

When the air raids on Gaza began, Barak said: "We have totally changed the rules of the game."

He was right. By blitzing Hamas-run Gaza, Barak presented the incoming US administration with a fait accompli, and neatly checkmated the newest player in the Middle East Great Game - Barack Obama, the US president-elect - before he could even take a seat at the table.

Latest news and analysis from Gaza and Israel
The Israeli offensive into Gaza now looks likely to short-circuit any plans Obama might have had to press Israel into withdrawing to its pre-1967 borders and sharing Jerusalem.This has pleased Israel's supporters in North America who have been cheering the war in Gaza and have been backing away from their earlier tentative support for a land-for-peace deal.
Israel's successes in having Western media portray the Gaza offensive as an 'anti-terrorist operation' will also diminish hopes of peace talks any time soon.
Obama inherits this mess in a few weeks. During the elections, Obama bowed to the Israel lobby, offering a new US carte blanche to Israel and even accepting Israel's permanent monopoly of all of Jerusalem.

As he concludes forming his cabinet, his Middle East team looks like it may be top-heavy with friends of Israel's Labour party.
Obama keeps saying he must remain silent on policy issues until George Bush, the outgoing US president, leaves office, but his staff appear happy to avoid having to make statements about Gaza that would antagonise Israel's American supporters.

Obama will take office facing a Middle East up in arms over Gaza and the entire Muslim world blaming the US for the carnage in Gaza.
Unless he moves swiftly to distance himself from the policies of the Bush administration, he will soon find himself facing the same problems and anger as the Bush White House.

 

[Just Plain Old]

Hummmm........... Israel does 'without question' have the right to defend itself. As does any nation State!

The only question in some circles is 'proportionality'.

If the Arab world really wanted to end the 'suffering' of the Palestinians they could do so overnight, why they don't is the question.......??

As for Islam and the Religion of peace,,, as I understand it you'll find plenty of instruction in the Koran on how to treat Kuffers' none of it very 'peaceful'. However 700 Years ago (which is where its ideology belongs) it was probably as uncivilised as Christianity was at the time........

 

[Staz]

I'll just leave this here for those that missed it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...yer-Anjem-Choudary-brands-Christmas-evil.html

Peaceful religion my ****.

 

[*Unkle*]

I'll just leave this here for those that missed it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...yer-Anjem-Choudary-brands-Christmas-evil.html

Peaceful religion my ****.

And the point is? That an evil person can be evil from a religion and it relates to every persons opinions from that religion? Therefore making them all agressive or evil or violent?





This person is Christian, Does he represent everyone that is Christian? Does his claim that "God spoke to him about Iraq" and that he was on a crusade, Does it make him speak for all christians?

Can we just try to take religion out of this. It relates to a nation which has expanded its borders illegally, has had numerous UN resolutions against it that it hasn't complied with. It never recognised hamas eventhough the people voted for them and it thinks that the last war has nothing to teach them, so it decides to attack another impoverished Arab neighbor. And will then wonder why more people try to kill Israelis

 

[motorbikez]

The firing of missiles into Israel helps the Palastinians plight how exactly.If they had an ounce of sense they would desist from doing that then Israel would have no excuse to invade Gaza.
Hopefully peace talks will take place soon as at the end of the day it is always the civillians on both sides that suffer most not the politicians.

 

[*Unkle*]

You are right i don't think it does help the Palestinians, but it might help to consolidate Hamas as the only people that will stick up for the Palestinians. As fatah as prepared to talk (although talking is the only way). At some point they will need to talk, but the Palestinians will lose out of this and any future negotiations.

 

[Staz]

And the point is? That an evil person can be evil from a religion and it relates to every persons opinions from that religion? Therefore making them all agressive or evil or violent?

This person is Christian, Does he represent everyone that is Christian? Does his claim that "God spoke to him about Iraq" and that he was on a crusade, Does it make him speak for all christians?

If someone from another faith were to make such protests against those of another faith as Mr Choudary continues to do against non-muslims they would be stopped, by people of their own religion. No other muslim has stopped Mr Choudary though.

Do a bit of research on him and you will see what sort of man he is. He himself admits Islam is not the religion of peace.

 

[abdus]

Hummmm........... Israel does 'without question' have the right to defend itself. As does any nation State!

vice versa

 

[abdus]

I'll just leave this here for those that missed it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...yer-Anjem-Choudary-brands-Christmas-evil.html

Peaceful religion my ****.

tut tut tut....so Anjem Choudary is your example now? What if tomorrow he says Christians and Whites are racists? WOuld you listen to him....

The guy is a ******* idiot who just speaks out of his **** and because of him, other Muslims are branded same. These are all idiots, Bakri, Anjem whatever, etc...maybe you should get out more and meet more Muslims who practise the religion like it should and you will see whether Islam is not a peaceful religion after all.

A bit like the Church and paedophiles? eh?

 

[abdus]

The firing of missiles into Israel helps the Palastinians plight how exactly.If they had an ounce of sense they would desist from doing that then Israel would have no excuse to invade Gaza.
Hopefully peace talks will take place soon as at the end of the day it is always the civillians on both sides that suffer most not the politicians.

And what right does Israel have to go into Palestine and when the latter defends themselves, they are to be blamed?

When Iraq invaded Kuwait, Bush and his little puppiues decided that this was not legal and a country cannot evade another one...so wtf is Israel doing in another country that isn't theirs?

You see, the problem with some here is all about Islam...not being Palestine, Kuwait, Iraq or whatever....

 

[sidibear]

And the point is? That an evil person can be evil from a religion and it relates to every persons opinions from that religion? Therefore making them all agressive or evil or violent?

The point is that the extremists of the Islamic faith are trying to convince all the other followers that they fully understand the teaching of Mohammed and that they should listen and follow like sheep. Trust me, the Koran isn't the easiest thing to read and as such it is open to more interpretation than any other religeon. Some women wear veils some don't, a good example of one persons interpretation.
Clerics state that they have a full understanding and that is why they preach to the others, and sure enough if the argument is stong enough others will listen. Hitler and the Jews being a classic example of people following listening and following blindly. Germany didn't wake up one morning and find Hitler in charge, and the concentration camps didn't appear overnight. ( I am not in anyway comparing islam to the nazi's)

This person is Christian, Does he represent everyone that is Christian? Does his claim that "God spoke to him about Iraq" and that he was on a crusade, Does it make him speak for all christians?

America isn't the United states of Christians nor has every claimed to be.
Hamas on the other hand is the Islamic Resistance movement, not the Palestine Resistance movement. Therefore, yes, they are fighting in the name of Islam.

Can we just try to take religion out of this.

If the PLO take arms and control the war yes, but not while Hamas is controlling the fighting, it will always be a religous war no matter how you like to view it.

 

[abdus]

If someone from another faith were to make such protests against those of another faith as Mr Choudary continues to do against non-muslims they would be stopped, by people of their own religion. No other muslim has stopped Mr Choudary though.

Do a bit of research on him and you will see what sort of man he is. He himself admits Islam is not the religion of peace.

have you stopped some of the priests who like to have fun with kids in the church? have you gone there and told them off? have you written to them? have you gone out and kill them or beat them?

you cannot take this muppet Choudary as an example here...and after all he is a fiollower of another idiot in the name of Bakri.

 

[abdus]

The point is that the extremists of the Islamic faith are trying to convince all the other followers that they fully understand the teaching of Mohammed and that they should listen and follow like sheep. Trust me, the Koran isn't the easiest thing to read and as such it is open to more interpretation than any other religeon. Some women wear veils some don't, a good example of one persons interpretation.
Clerics state that they have a full understanding and that is why they preach to the others, and sure enough if the argument is stong enough others will listen. Hitler and the Jews being a classic example of people following listening and following blindly. Germany didn't wake up one morning and find Hitler in charge, and the concentration camps didn't appear overnight. ( I am not in anyway comparing islam to the nazi's)

sidi, that is well said

As you said, these extremists 'think' they are following the teachings properly, but i will never agree with them. Islam prohibits the killings of innocents, of women, of children, of old people and also prohibits suicide bombers. How can these extremists think they are doing the right thing and using Islam as their justification?

Regarding the veil, I'm a Muslim, my wife dresses properly...doesn't cover her face or herself like those in the Middle East (esp Iran); actually like Ninjas..lol

And Muslims with common sense and proper knowledge of Isdlam will never listen to these extremists...I'm a Muslim with some common sense

America isn't the United states of Christians nor has every claimed to be.
Hamas on the other hand is the Islamic Resistance movement, not the Palestine Resistance movement. Therefore, yes, they are fighting in the name of Islam.

Hamas is using the term Islamic..they are representing themselves, not Islam or the Muslims worldwide.,

 

[sidibear]

tut tut tut....so Anjem Choudary is your example now? What if tomorrow he says Christians and Whites are racists? WOuld you listen to him....

The guy is a ******* idiot who just speaks out of his **** and because of him, other Muslims are branded same. These are all idiots, Bakri, Anjem whatever, etc...maybe you should get out more and meet more Muslims who practise the religion like it should and you will see whether Islam is not a peaceful religion after all.

A bit like the Church and paedophiles? eh?

I couldn't agree more.
In this country though you do have to agree that most whites are considered racist, even the Union Jack is considered a racist flag.

With regards to the extremist clerics, they seem to be the only ones making the news so most people get an "informed" opinion of muslims.

Want to see something the will surprise you about me?
These people are my close family.

Halina, Bill, Me, Marire, Kai and Jess.

Halina is the one I have learned a lot about Islam from. She owns her own business and divorced her husband because she thought he was an idiot. But she does follow her religion vigorously in her own interpretation.
Kai also taught me a great deal. He is also a devout follower.
Bill is a sikh, has his own religeon and his own views.
Me, Marie and Jess. Shouldn't we be fighting with the others?
According to the tabloid press we should be.

 

[NHN]

and to make a happy reading for MHN, my car has a boost leak

Did your religion teach you sarcasm aswell then, here you go, one of these should fix your leak & in nice gold/silver colours aswell, lol:

 

[motorbikez]

And what right does Israel have to go into Palestine and when the latter defends themselves, they are to be blamed?

When Iraq invaded Kuwait, Bush and his little puppiues decided that this was not legal and a country cannot evade another one...so wtf is Israel doing in another country that isn't theirs?

You see, the problem with some here is all about Islam...not being Palestine, Kuwait, Iraq or whatever....

Did I say Israel had a right to go into Palestine no I didn't, did I mention Islam no I didn't, I said if the Palistinians had an once of common sense they would stop firing missiles into Israel.Hamas are causing major problems for their own people by continually firing missiles into Israel the only losers in this conflict are the people.

 

[Just Plain Old]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Plain Old
Hummmm........... Israel does 'without question' have the right to defend itself. As does any nation State!


vice versa

Indeed.......... A couple of minor problems though,,, 1. Hamas are the aggressor,, and 2. They are not a 'Nation State', as there is no 'Palistine'.

 

[Silver Quattro]

Obama is screwed as the US would say


A fait accompli

When the air raids on Gaza began, Barak said: "We have totally changed the rules of the game."

He was right. By blitzing Hamas-run Gaza, Barak presented the incoming US administration with a fait accompli, and neatly checkmated the newest player in the Middle East Great Game - Barack Obama, the US president-elect - before he could even take a seat at the table.

Latest news and analysis from Gaza and Israel
The Israeli offensive into Gaza now looks likely to short-circuit any plans Obama might have had to press Israel into withdrawing to its pre-1967 borders and sharing Jerusalem.This has pleased Israel's supporters in North America who have been cheering the war in Gaza and have been backing away from their earlier tentative support for a land-for-peace deal.
Israel's successes in having Western media portray the Gaza offensive as an 'anti-terrorist operation' will also diminish hopes of peace talks any time soon.
Obama inherits this mess in a few weeks. During the elections, Obama bowed to the Israel lobby, offering a new US carte blanche to Israel and even accepting Israel's permanent monopoly of all of Jerusalem.

As he concludes forming his cabinet, his Middle East team looks like it may be top-heavy with friends of Israel's Labour party.
Obama keeps saying he must remain silent on policy issues until George Bush, the outgoing US president, leaves office, but his staff appear happy to avoid having to make statements about Gaza that would antagonise Israel's American supporters.

Obama will take office facing a Middle East up in arms over Gaza and the entire Muslim world blaming the US for the carnage in Gaza.
Unless he moves swiftly to distance himself from the policies of the Bush administration, he will soon find himself facing the same problems and anger as the Bush White House.

"Now is the time to stand by Israel" Barack Obama

"Finally, let there be no doubt, I will always keep the threat of military action on the table to defend our security and our ally, Israel. Do not be confused."


"There is no room at the negotiating table for terrorist organizations. That is why I opposed holding elections in 2006 with Hamas on the ballot."


"I will make known to allies and adversaries alike--that America maintains an unwavering friendship with Israel and an unshakable commitment to its security."


"I will bring to the White House an unshakable commitment to Israel’s security. That starts with insuring Israel’s qualitative military advantage. I will insure that Israel can defend itself from any threat from Gaza to Tehran. Defense cooperation, defense cooperation between the United States and Israel is a model of success and it must be deepened. As President I will implement a memorandum of understanding that provides $30 billion in assistance to Israel over the next decade, investments to Israel’s security that will not be tied to any other nation."

"Now is the time to stand by Israel as it writes the next chapter in its extraordinary journey."



Senator Barack Obama
AIPAC Policy Conference 2008
June 4, 2008

http://www.aipac.org/Publications/Sp...C_08_Obama.pdf

below is a rabbis views on Israel,is anyone going to argue with him?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mRcOns7uRLY&feature=related

 

[Silver Quattro]

They were once victims of a Holocaust: Really?

"It's a horrifyingly sad place (Gaza) because of the desperation and misery of the way people live. I was unprepared for camps that are much worse than anything I saw in South Africa." (Edward Said)

The carnage in Gaza follows the carnage in Lebanon, Jenin, and Qana. The list will continue to grow as Israel with American fuel maintains the onslaught against the Palestinians and other Arab states. In line with the Jewish tradition, the Israelis are claiming to be the innocent victim. Just the body count alone tells the real story of who is the real victim in this asymmetric conflict.

It is difficult to fathom how a nation can behave in such a belligerent manner after it had allegedly lost six million in a relatively recent Holocaust, that took place during the Second World War, and some are still alive from that episode. If a nation genuinely suffered such losses in one tragic episode, they would show utmost restraint in killing innocent civilians. Moreover, one would expect them to be at the forefront in opposing the persecution of another group of people, let alone engage in such activities.

If it were the Germans instead of the Palestinians, that would make sense, as vengeance is a natural response. However, the Palestinians and Arabs had no connection with the Nazis in Germany. Europe commits the crime against the Jews; the people in the Middle East (Muslims and Christians) pay the price. This is unjust and illogical. Even more so, when you consider that historically the Jews have always prospered under Muslim rule, particularly under the ‘fundamentalist’ Caliphate that was constantly waging Jihad!

From Istanbul to Granada, the Jews lived happily without facing the regular inquisitions and pogroms of Christian Europe. A challenge for the Muslims is to convey the facts to the ignorant American masses, undoing the brainwashing done by the nasty mass media filled with mini Joseph Gobbles, so that they would at least see the Middle East with their two eyes, instead of one, like a one-eyed Dajjal.

Israel is claiming that it acted in self-defence, in response to the rockets fired by Hamas. As if it was entirely a unilateral provocation from Hamas without any prior cause. Let us assume the Israeli claims to be true. It is also true that Israel possesses huge technological advantage, with a fully equipped conventional armed force in comparison to Hamas. Even the analogy of David and Goliath would not be apt here. Under such circumstances, they should have sent ground troops, selectively targeting the Hamas fighters. Instead, they took the easy option, resorted to the aerial bombardment, which is indiscriminate by its nature, and not surprisingly led to the killing of innocent civilians and destroyed the infrastructure of the place bringing more chaos and suffering. Thus, everyone is talking about the cowardly disproportionate Israeli response.

How is the civilian casualty justified now? Tzipi Livni, the Israeli foreign minister, told the US media “"Unfortunately in a war ... sometimes also civilians pay the price". Then, the same argument should apply when Hamas kills Israeli civilians, but it does not. If we are to be consistent both sides are terrorists for engaging in killing civilians, otherwise the label of terrorism should be discarded as nothing other than a term of war propaganda. It also follows, the more civilians you kill, the bigger the terrorist you are. So it is Israel that wins the title here but overall trailing well behind the US

Indeed, if this situation were reverse, for example, Tel Aviv bombed by Syria or Iran, the mass media would have gone into a frenzy calling it Arab Terrorism or Islamic Terrorism. For sure, the UN would have been a lot more active, producing endless resolutions. If the Muslims can create Islamic terrorism, surely the Jews can create Judaic terrorism. Accordingly, can the Arabs/Muslims call the bombing of Gaza as an example of Judaic terrorism or Jewish terrorism? There are ample grounds to claim, this sort of Israeli action is the product of the racist, Talmudic laws and values, which considers the gentiles (non-Jews) to be less than human beings. It is no secret, the Jewish ideology considers the Jews to be the chosen race of God, and the rest by implication are something less. Perhaps this is why Israel sees the death of 3 or 4 Jews as enough to kill 300 or more Palestinians in line with its Judaic based ethos.

Let us not forget Christian terrorism. Iraq can be a prime example of that, since George Bush, Tony Blair and many others in the US Administration have openly professed as being devout Christians. According to George Bush, God inspired him to wage this crusade in Iraq; the WMD was the Holy Grail demanded by King George Bush. Note the tacit approval of the Vatican and the Orthodox Church by their silence. For the US, the killing of foreigners in a large scale has been part of its Secular-Christian heritage, from the genocide of Native Americans to the Arabs. Historical facts clearly point to that tradition of the Wild West.

The reality of Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan shows one thing, the Muslims are the ones being terrorised; they are the victims of state-led terrorism. Let us apply commonsense and ask: which inflicts more terror, a F16 fighter plane or a primitive home made rocket? Who has been terrorised, the Jews living in fortress Israel with 4 or 5 casualties or the Palestinians in Gaza with 400 plus? Truth is indeed the first casualty of war.

Yamin Zakaria
London, UK

Copyright © Yamin Zakaria 2009

 

[Staz]

have you stopped some of the priests who like to have fun with kids in the church? have you gone there and told them off? have you written to them? have you gone out and kill them or beat them?

You are assuming that I am Christian.

If I were, and the priest in my church did anything wrong, I would be the first to speak out. To him first. I can assure you of that.

What if tomorrow he says Christians and Whites are racists? WOuld you listen to him....

What is your point here? That I wouldn't listen because I know better? I certainly do, but others may not.

The guy is a ******* idiot who just speaks out of his **** and because of him, other Muslims are branded same. These are all idiots, Bakri, Anjem whatever, etc...maybe you should get out more and meet more Muslims who practise the religion like it should and you will see whether Islam is not a peaceful religion after all.

I am not assuming that every muslim has the same feelings as Choudary and I would hope no one else thinks that either. I do know muslims and have read books written by them so you're preaching to the wrong person.

But my point still stands. Those muslims who are peaceful and follow the peaceful version of Islam should be making a point of denouncing him.