Lag - Delay - Hesitation

[Daggerit]

My last car was a 2013 S5 which was great and no issues with the auto box.

Currently have an RS3 and find the auto fine in this also.

Why have Audi ditched the s-tronic for the new S4 and seamingly fitted an inferior auto box ?

I've heard a lot of negative comments about the auto on the new 4's now.

Not liking the sound of this at all !!!

Beyond the previous S-Tronic being a bit fragile I don't think there's a huge reason behind it from what I can see.

Plus the ZF8 has been a proven solution in various high power cars in one format or another (RS6/7, S8) for a fair while so they probably like the proven track record too.

I really didn't think it was quite as bad as a lot of people have been making out. Slower than the S-Tronic but during my test drive through traffic it was smoother and then on back roads it was plenty quick for me!


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[Simonb1975]

Horses for courses i guess both boxes have people who get on with them and those that don't/can't.

 

[Daggerit]

Horses for courses i guess both boxes have people who get on with them and those that don't/can't.

Very true.


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[Snake Pliskin]

is it 8 speed now too ?

 

[Daggerit]

is it 8 speed now too ?

The S4 is!


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[jimnastics]

This sounds like the lag I've always had on my B8 1.8T multitronic. It was weird at first but now it's second nature, just part of the drive. Is there anyone here who has used that box and now has an A4 2.0 S Tronic who can comment on the comparison?

 

[Dippy]

I gotcha. If you look at other models that have boost gauges such as S3, RS3, RS6, etc, I don't think that there's much of a difference in terms of how it builds to be honest. I'd be surprised if that was the source of a 'dangerous' level of lag off the line is more what I mean.

But the B9 S4/S5 is supposed to be different. It has a higher compression ratio than most turbo engines and a twin-scroll clamped as close to the exhaust ports as possible in order to minimise lag. Audi claim that maximum torque is from about 1350rpm which is pretty amazing for an engine that can also achieve around 350 horses. The trouble is that the torque curve from a car that MRC put on their rollers doesn't show this. In that video the boost gauge only starts at about 1750rpm and reaches maximum at about 3000rpm.

Going back to the OP's #1 post, I assume @CH 12 is at a junction with foot on the brake and the gearbox in drive - first gear will be selected and it will be 'slipping' at the converter. Then when the brake is released the converter should do its stuff and even include a bit of torque multiplication (although it needs to be near the stall point to get the real benefit of that), and transmit that directly through the transmission to the wheels. There should be no need for it to change gear so how can any lag be due to the gearbox mapping? Unless there is something strange going on in throttle control, I can only assume that @CH 12 's complaint is due to turbo lag, so we might have to agree to disagree on this.

I guess I need to test drive one of these. When there's an RS5 at one of my local dealers I might see if I can test an S4 or S5 at the same time.

 

[zcoreyy]

I have the 2017 facelift S3 and it sometimes does the same for me... mine is manual on the other hand.


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[CH 12]

It is as you describe Dippy with car in manual stationary very light use of break pedal to just hold, g/box saying 1st gear. I have ruled out turbo lag as virtually nothing happens at least you should get some power down then feel the turbo but you don't for a second or so, If you have time go to a dealer and test drive the S4 or 5 see what you think they have the same engines and boxes as you are most probably aware, I would be interested in your verdict. Apart from this it is a nice car. Another reason to rule out turbo is it varies only slightly in some modes but then that is down to mapping so could I effect the tubo. I have now had a quote to cure the issue from a top German Audi specialist £2400-00 remap plus extra hardware.

 

[CH 12]

zcoreyy have you taken it back to the dealer the more complaints the better, also if your manual does it then it must be throttle pedal lag.

 

[zcoreyy]

zcoreyy have you taken it back to the dealer the more complaints the better, also if your manual does it then it must be throttle pedal lag.

Not as of yet, only started to notice it. Will definitely be letting them know.


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[EddieRS3]

It is as you describe Dippy with car in manual stationary very light use of break pedal to just hold, g/box saying 1st gear. I have ruled out turbo lag as virtually nothing happens at least you should get some power down then feel the turbo but you don't for a second or so, If you have time go to a dealer and test drive the S4 or 5 see what you think they have the same engines and boxes as you are most probably aware, I would be interested in your verdict. Apart from this it is a nice car. Another reason to rule out turbo is it varies only slightly in some modes but then that is down to mapping so could I effect the tubo. I have now had a quote to cure the issue from a top German Audi specialist £2400-00 remap plus extra hardware.

Christ who is the specialist at £2400? ABT? Then again it depends what hardware! Would be interesting to know !

 

[hmy7k]

I have the tiptronic box in my 272, it uses the same tiptronic gearbox as the S4 and I find throttle response in Sport mode is excellent.

I do find it a bit sloppy in Drive and Economy so I am surprised that @CH 12 says its the same in all modes.

I find the difference quite noticeable and if I need a reliable and fast launch I use Sport mode and I am very happy with it.

 

[monkey66]

Could this all be some sort of mis-directed torque vectoring / traction control kind of thing?

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[Dippy]

It is as you describe Dippy with car in manual stationary very light use of break pedal to just hold, g/box saying 1st gear. I have ruled out turbo lag as virtually nothing happens at least you should get some power down then feel the turbo but you don't for a second or so, If you have time go to a dealer and test drive the S4 or 5 see what you think they have the same engines and boxes as you are most probably aware, I would be interested in your verdict. Apart from this it is a nice car. Another reason to rule out turbo is it varies only slightly in some modes but then that is down to mapping so could I effect the tubo. I have now had a quote to cure the issue from a top German Audi specialist £2400-00 remap plus extra hardware.

I'm really not sure if I am understanding you. So you are in 1st gear with your foot on the brake.
Is there any pressure at all on the accelerator? What are the engine revs?
When you release the brake how much are you using the accelerator? Again, what are the engine revs when this lag occurs?
What you you mean by "virtually nothing happens...for a second or so"? Is there any acceleration at all? What is the boost gauge showing at this point?

I had a B5 S4 for 13 years. It was about 315bhp/560Nm but lighter than the B9 so similar performance. Likely more turbo lag than the B9 but not ridiculous because it had the smaller K03 turbos. I was regularly humbled off the line by 3.0 TDI Audis because of turbo lag, although of course I soon caught up and overtook. This is why I keep thinking that you are describing turbo lag because it seems the same.

If you are releasing the brake and pressing the accelerator but the engine revs do not rise immediately then maybe there is some sort of throttle lag. But if the engine revs rise and for that second or two the boost gauge is not fully white then that's turbo lag.

 

[thefunkygibbon]

new S5 here, experience the exact same. Slamming it in S makes things a little more bearable, but I have to totally disagree about the person(people?) who said it was not a safety concern. It totally is. More than once now i've been at junctions or roundabouts and had a sufficient gap to pull out yet when putting foot down the delay of 1-2seconds invariably means the car that was half way around the roundabout is nearly upon you.
It really is a poor show for what is essentially a performance car.
Makes no difference what drive select you are in, if start/stop is enabled or not, or if hill hold is on or off... and to respond to another comment on here, it is most definitely not turbo lag.
The same delay is very apparent when you want to floor it or if you are pulling off. There is about a 1-2 second delay almost all of the time before the car wakes up and wants to move. If it was turbo lag it would at least do something as soon as you press the pedal down.

 

[Bellasdad]

new S5 here, experience the exact same. Slamming it in S makes things a little more bearable, but I have to totally disagree about the person(people?) who said it was not a safety concern. It totally is. More than once now i've been at junctions or roundabouts and had a sufficient gap to pull out yet when putting foot down the delay of 1-2seconds invariably means the car that was half way around the roundabout is nearly upon you.
It really is a poor show for what is essentially a performance car.
Makes no difference what drive select you are in, if start/stop is enabled or not, or if hill hold is on or off... and to respond to another comment on here, it is most definitely not turbo lag.
The same delay is very apparent when you want to floor it or if you are pulling off. There is about a 1-2 second delay almost all of the time before the car wakes up and wants to move. If it was turbo lag it would at least do something as soon as you press the pedal down.

A very good description of the problem many of us are having to put up with.
Couldn't have put it any better myself.

 

[Peter booth]

new S5 here, experience the exact same. Slamming it in S makes things a little more bearable, but I have to totally disagree about the person(people?) who said it was not a safety concern. It totally is. More than once now i've been at junctions or roundabouts and had a sufficient gap to pull out yet when putting foot down the delay of 1-2seconds invariably means the car that was half way around the roundabout is nearly upon you.
It really is a poor show for what is essentially a performance car.
Makes no difference what drive select you are in, if start/stop is enabled or not, or if hill hold is on or off... and to respond to another comment on here, it is most definitely not turbo lag.
The same delay is very apparent when you want to floor it or if you are pulling off. There is about a 1-2 second delay almost all of the time before the car wakes up and wants to move. If it was turbo lag it would at least do something as soon as you press the pedal down.

Thank goodness someone agrees with me on here. As I have stated my car is an sline 190 diesel and not an S4 so I will have a lot less performance but still not to this level. As thefunkygibbon states it is heart stopping when it happens even when you are moving and go to accelerate it sometimes does the same thing then all you get is a jolt when it shifts down and then goes does not make for a nice driving experience I can tell you. As far as I can tell (I will double check tomorrow) when this issue occurs the revs don't go up when you hit the accelerator for a few seconds.

 

[Simonb1975]

new S5 here, experience the exact same. Slamming it in S makes things a little more bearable, but I have to totally disagree about the person(people?) who said it was not a safety concern. It totally is. More than once now i've been at junctions or roundabouts and had a sufficient gap to pull out yet when putting foot down the delay of 1-2seconds invariably means the car that was half way around the roundabout is nearly upon you.
It really is a poor show for what is essentially a performance car.
Makes no difference what drive select you are in, if start/stop is enabled or not, or if hill hold is on or off... and to respond to another comment on here, it is most definitely not turbo lag.
The same delay is very apparent when you want to floor it or if you are pulling off. There is about a 1-2 second delay almost all of the time before the car wakes up and wants to move. If it was turbo lag it would at least do something as soon as you press the pedal down.

I would say most of the people who don't think its a safety concern are only referring to their own experiences. The problem doesn't appear to be standard on all cars for some reason and in some cases the way people drive may affect this. I for one have had very little hesitation when test driving. Doesn't mean others don't. If the answer partly lies in driving style's then it would only be some tiny difference's in throttle use or something. Not something I would be particularly aware of.

 

[Daggerit]

If people are finding they're hitting the accelerator and the revs aren't even building for a couple seconds, it would point to an accelerator sensor problem to me. Even if there's some turbo/transmission lag then the revs should still build regardless. And the fact that people with basically every transmission and engine have reported it and said it doesn't affect them would boil down to the one common part.

Only thing I can think of, don't know if it'll turn out to be the case or helps anything for people though. Haha.


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[cuke2u]

I would say most of the people who don't think its a safety concern are only referring to their own experiences. The problem doesn't appear to be standard on all cars for some reason and in some cases the way people drive may affect this. I for one have had very little hesitation when test driving. Doesn't mean others don't. If the answer partly lies in driving style's then it would only be some tiny difference's in throttle use or something. Not something I would be particularly aware of.

What other experiences are we supposed to go on, you could argue it us only those who feel it is a safety issue are also only basing it on their own subjective experiences. After all find me a road test in any review that refers to that sort if lag?

 

[Peter booth]

Well the road test didn't flag up any of the gearbox failures either did they

 

[Simonb1975]

What other experiences are we supposed to go on, you could argue it us only those who feel it is a safety issue are also only basing it on their own subjective experiences. After all find me a road test in any review that refers to that sort if lag?

No argument from me. The cars I tried, both TFSI and TDI have been fine.

 

[monkey66]

Is everyone suffering from this, I can't comment as still waiting for my car.

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[CH 12]

What other experiences are we supposed to go on, you could argue it us only those who feel it is a safety issue are also only basing it on their own subjective experiences. After all find me a road test in any review that refers to that sort if lag?

Here is a review which highlights throttle response which B9 note Mainly S4 and 5 owners are recognising the running gear on the S4 and5 are similar not sure if that is the case with the other cars in the 4 and 5 range
Throttle response is not as immediate as it was on the outgoing supercharged car, and the engine's ......http://www.caranddriver.com/audi/s4

 

[CH 12]

new S5 here, experience the exact same. Slamming it in S makes things a little more bearable, but I have to totally disagree about the person(people?) who said it was not a safety concern. It totally is. More than once now i've been at junctions or roundabouts and had a sufficient gap to pull out yet when putting foot down the delay of 1-2seconds invariably means the car that was half way around the roundabout is nearly upon you.
It really is a poor show for what is essentially a performance car.
Makes no difference what drive select you are in, if start/stop is enabled or not, or if hill hold is on or off... and to respond to another comment on here, it is most definitely not turbo lag.
The same delay is very apparent when you want to floor it or if you are pulling off. There is about a 1-2 second delay almost all of the time before the car wakes up and wants to move. If it was turbo lag it would at least do something as soon as you press the pedal down.

Thank goodness someone agrees with me on here. As I have stated my car is an sline 190 diesel and not an S4 so I will have a lot less performance but still not to this level. As thefunkygibbon states it is heart stopping when it happens even when you are moving and go to accelerate it sometimes does the same thing then all you get is a jolt when it shifts down and then goes does not make for a nice driving experience I can tell you. As far as I can tell (I will double check tomorrow) when this issue occurs the revs don't go up when you hit the accelerator for a few seconds.

Peter booth and The funky Gibbon
Have you taken your cars back to the dealer, if not can I suggest you do as I have been informed Audi will not take action unless they get loads of complaints. I live near the Audi UK head office and have volunteered to take my car their but they are not interested because not enough complaints.

 

[thefunkygibbon]

I haven't yet. I've only had the car for a month and wanted to see if it settled down after a while (also i've been a bit busy) I will take it in soon, but not sure of the correct procedure. If we are too all complain about it will they class the a4/s4/a5/s5 as all separate complaints? what if the garage just say "thats just the way they are" or something?
I'm not good with being forceful with this sort of thing

 

[CH 12]

Christ who is the specialist at £2400? ABT? Then again it depends what hardware! Would be interesting to know !

Christ who is the specialist at £2400? ABT? Then again it depends what hardware! Would be interesting to know !

Eddie
From what they tell me it is remap plus some hardware to sharpen the throttle response Also ups power from 354 to 425 and torque from 500 to 550 , I agree seems awfully expensive to fix a fault on a brand new car. My old 2011 s3 and 2014 S4 were great unlike this new 2017 S4.

 

[thefunkygibbon]

To be fair, it sounds like something like this - http://www.tmcmotorsport.com/power-pedal-accelerator-tuning-manual-controls
would make the world of difference

 

[Peter booth]

Peter booth and The funky Gibbon
Have you taken your cars back to the dealer, if not can I suggest you do as I have been informed Audi will not take action unless they get loads of complaints. I live near the Audi UK head office and have volunteered to take my car their but they are not interested because not enough complaints.

I have had my car back to Audi only to be told that's the way they are can't do anything about it.

 

[Ad72]

This thread is making me question if I should have stuck with my S3 order and not changed it to an S4. Is anyone happy with how the S4 drives?


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[Daggerit]

This thread is making me question if I should have stuck with my S3 order and not changed it to an S4. Is anyone happy with how the S4 drives?


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I had no issues at all with the S4 demo I drove for a full day. The last A4 auto I drove was my B8.5 3.0tdi S-Tronic and I didn't notice the S4 as being particularly laggy personally. Did a launch and got around 4 seconds on video so it can't have been too bad off the line. Also did some busy roundabouts and never had a thought that it was dangerous or not going to go when I wanted it to.

These are just observations from my own time in an S4 but from the sounds of things it's not something that's affecting all cars.

 

[thefunkygibbon]

In fairness you had it for a demo. Chances are very high that you were driving around all of the time in dynamic and sport modes. The lag is a fair bit less noticeable when you have it set to them. But as you can appreciate it isn't convenient or that great for efficiency to be knocking it into S at every stop.

 

[jimnastics]

I've got new A4 2.0 TDI S Tronic and 2.0 TSFI S Tronic turning up for me and the wife in July and September respectively... I guess I'll at least be able to report back which is worse

 

[Chimp]

My S5 Coupe doesn't appear to have any lag or hesitation ... picked it up in March 17. In drive & dynamic it's very smooth but not as smooth as Stronic in 2014 S3 previously. In dynamic and sport changes very quick. Especially on paddles.

 

[Daggerit]

In fairness you had it for a demo. Chances are very high that you were driving around all of the time in dynamic and sport modes. The lag is a fair bit less noticeable when you have it set to them. But as you can appreciate it isn't convenient or that great for efficiency to be knocking it into S at every stop.

I did definitely use dynamic but also did a couple runs to see what kind of mpg I could get in comfort and economy and didn't notice it then either. As I said, it was only a day, but I imagine if it was that noticeable/dangerous it's something I'd notice immediately.

 

[thefunkygibbon]

Yeah, it was something I noticed pretty much straight away tbh.

Chimp - Talking about putting the foot on the acceleration, I would suggest that it is nothing to do with the transmission aspect and how quickly it changes gears.

 

[NickGun]

Seems its something that effects some peoples cars more than others, very few S4 owners on here have reported back that lag / hesitation etc is an issue in all driving modes, equally now a couple have, the original poster of this post (S4) has a major issue and also a 2.0 TDi and a 3.0TDi do too. So its hard to pin down to any one engine and (or) gearbox combination.

For what its worth, back in January 2016 we test drove a 2.0TDi 190 Avant Quattro S-tronic, both my other half and myself, over an extended test drive neither of us had an issue with hesitation in any modes, it's definitely more dulled in its responses in Efficiency - a bit less so in Comfort, but then it would be I guess as they are not the Sports settings - if it had been a major issue we'd have probably not ordered an S-tronic or even the car itself.

As previously mentioned we have now had our own 3.0TDi 218 Avant Quattro S-tronic (coincidentally for a year exactly as of yesterday) covering over 13k miles in 5 different countries and have had no problem with the responsiveness of the car, we tend to leave Efficiency alone and drive usually in Comfort or Dynamic depending on Motorway or road, sometimes using paddles too. Having driving through France, Spain and Italy last summer we never had any issues pulling out of junctions, roundabouts etc and thats in a RHD car on the wrong side of the road.

It's definitely a strange one and is an issue that is spoiling the car for some people - which really can't be ignored.

 

[cuke2u]

Here is a review which highlights throttle response which B9 note Mainly S4 and 5 owners are recognising the running gear on the S4 and5 are similar not sure if that is the case with the other cars in the 4 and 5 range
Throttle response is not as immediate as it was on the outgoing supercharged car, and the engine's ......http://www.caranddriver.com/audi/s4

Where does it say anything about 'lag' being dangerous? though. As you say the only reference is "Throttle response is not as immediate as the supercharged car", which in reality it won't be. So I am not sure if that is lag at all. Maybe the gearbox ecu on your car could do with a reset so it can relearn the settings...

 

[LeMans]

I drove a B9 S4 at weekend Tiptronic felt smoother than s-tronic in my B8.5 2.0 TFSI - or maybe it was just all that extra power!

A while ago I started a thread 'S4 - Tiptronic' not sure how to copy link. Apparently it lighter...