Lag - Delay - Hesitation

[Redders81]

Can't think I can ever remember one issue with retaining the speed whatever mode I put the gearbox in. Perhaps I am used to turbos, as you say as I have driven them since 2008, but that car, a mk4 mondeo 2.0l diesel was shocking until I had it remapped...

I Think once you lose a bit of speed I'm applying the accelerator but it seems I have to push it quite far before it goes anywhere. I will get used to it more excuses to take it out for a drive. Still love it

 

[Chris S 1245]

I experienced this horrible Lag today in my S4 when at a giveway trying to move off. Think it’s something to do with the stop start having to reengage. Car was in Normal D. Noticed the stop start kicks in when the cars rolling it’s quite annoying sometimes. I put the gearbox in S when approaching roundabouts where I know I have to move off quickly!

 

[cuke2u]

Yes this is a normal tactic.

 

[Evil Derboy]

Just keep it in S all the time!

 

[SMI77]

...or contact ABYSS @ DTUK for a Transmission Control Unit Tuner, to me worth every penny.

 

[Voronus]

...or contact ABYSS @ DTUK for a Transmission Control Unit Tuner, to me worth every penny.

I did that, very minimal impact on lag in all honesty.

 

[cuke2u]

Are you saying you have a TCU tune then? Perhaps you should provide more information because there are those of us that would contradict your statement...

 

[Voronus]

Are you saying you have a TCU tune then? Perhaps you should provide more information because there are those of us that would contradict your statement...

you can check out my review in this thread, plus some detailed discussion.

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/dtuk-tcu-gearbox-flash-review.379005/page-3

 

[cuke2u]

Did you read though about the experiences and advice from Evil Derboy? Your comments seemed to have been based upon a 35 mile trip...

 

[SMI77]

So that was 17th Nov, now 15th Dec. Any progress?

 

[Voronus]

Did you read though about the experiences and advice from Evil Derboy? Your comments seemed to have been based upon a 35 mile trip...

I haven't tried it yet. Still looking for the right opportunity to a accelerate all out up to 100+mph. Not sure about a product where this seems to be required step though!

But your right maybe this will help but have to say I'm not holding out too much hope.

 

[cuke2u]

Fair enough, the 'lag' with my gearbox was something that really never bothered me anyway. Having driven many automatics of old with those having more than enough issues. I seem to remember only having three gears was one, then they came with an overdrive, wow.
Certainly they've come a long way since then...

 

[DarkyUK]

I haven't tried it yet. Still looking for the right opportunity to a accelerate all out up to 100+mph. Not sure about a product where this seems to be required step though!

But your right maybe this will help but have to say I'm not holding out too much hope.

I think I read something somewhere about just having high rev gear changes and not needing to do it throughout all of the gears, still not done my TCU or fitted the box yet though so not 100% sure. Will be hair raising in my S5 if I have to max it out never mine Evil Derbot in his RS5

 

[L_G]

Driving to see future relatives in law today I found the car seemed to hesitate at times when doing motorway speeds and wanted a bit more juice to overtake something.

Didn't notice this on the way back but it was ******* it down so there were other distractions

 

[Evil Derboy]

After a bit of time with my TCU tune and going through the steps recommended by the manufacturer my opinion is that there's a noticeable difference through the rev range but it doesn't cure the perceived lag from standstill. I'm thinking its just a combination of turbo lag and the ZF unit.

At this point I'm not convinced that the difference is worth the money. Personally I notice that it's "different" but can't really decide if it's "better".

As I've mentioned in another thread, my current car is a bi-turbo with an auto box. My last car was as bit-turbo with a DCT box. Both had lag to some extent but the previous car was a bit better in that regard and the DCT box much snappier.

As for start/stop, kicking in at a junction. You dont need to slap the car into S to combat this. There's a knack to it that soon becomes habit and it's even outlined in the owners manual. You just know when to dab the accelerator as you're coming to a stop to prevent the engine from stopping.

 

[RB84]

I agree with Evil. I'm running an S4 and I was reminded of this 'lag' when coming back from a week in FL where I was lucky enough to be pootling around in a Corvette Stingray and then 5.0 Mustang. Now the Corvette made the Mustang feel slow, but both of them had much easier throttle modulation and pick-up from standstill. My take on the S4 is that there is turbo lag but also engineered 'softness' to acceleration inputs in D1, and it's likely if you're just in Comfort setting on the gearbox that unless totally still it might try and take off in D2, rather than dropping to D1. Both of these facts mean that you're unlikely to feel totally in control when you make that initial prod of the accelerator to move off. This is then made more startling when you shove your foot down in the 'OMG, OMG, gonna get sideswiped!!!' moments moving across oncoming traffic on a roundabout (for instance) and the car suddenly lunges forward and makes you look like a novice who just passed his test yesterday...

I always have stop/start disabled (part of my start-up routine!) so I know this doesn't come into it. And yes the Corvette and Mustang are big atmospheric V8s, but its their reaction to the first instance of accelerator push when at a standstill that reminded me of the S4's 'reluctance' to move away once I got back to the UK. Still love the S4, but you do need to drive around this and be aware of it when 'nipping out'.

 

[WesT-gefül]

Fair enough, the 'lag' with my gearbox was something that really never bothered me anyway. Having driven many automatics of old with those having more than enough issues. I seem to remember only having three gears was one, then they came with an overdrive, wow.
Certainly they've come a long way since then...

Showing your age there Cuke. I remember 4 gears from a 82 or 85 Ford Escort, but then again I wasn’t old enough to drive it.

 

[WesT-gefül]

Here is a very clear explanation about the lag. Listen to the full video, it’s little over 4 min. You’ll then understand why. He spoke to the Audi engineers about it. It’s an intentional design.

 

[guestlinger]

I find the initial throttle response unacceptable in both D (poor) and S (better but still not good enough) mode. The DTUK pedal box has improved this but it’s still not as good as my previous B8.5 S4.

So I now always drive in M (manual - gear stick pushed right over) mode (except for traffic jams) and my enjoyment of the car has escalated hugely. Combined with the DTUK pedal box the response off the line feels instantaneous. No hesitancy at all. I use a mix of the paddles and gear stick to change gears depending on situation (basically if turning the steering wheel significantly like entering a roundabout I use the gearstick like you would do in a manual, otherwise I use the paddles). What’s great about both the paddles and gear stick is that if you HOLD the down shifter for about 1-2 seconds when braking, the car will drop automatically into lowest available gear. It makes for great driving experience.

Can anyone explain why M mode doesn’t suffer from lag like the D and S modes do?

I have a B9 A4 3.0TDI 272



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[cuke2u]

I agree with Evil. I'm running an S4 and I was reminded of this 'lag' when coming back from a week in FL where I was lucky enough to be pootling around in a Corvette Stingray and then 5.0 Mustang. Now the Corvette made the Mustang feel slow, but both of them had much easier throttle modulation and pick-up from standstill. My take on the S4 is that there is turbo lag but also engineered 'softness' to acceleration inputs in D1, and it's likely if you're just in Comfort setting on the gearbox that unless totally still it might try and take off in D2, rather than dropping to D1. Both of these facts mean that you're unlikely to feel totally in control when you make that initial prod of the accelerator to move off. This is then made more startling when you shove your foot down in the 'OMG, OMG, gonna get sideswiped!!!' moments moving across oncoming traffic on a roundabout (for instance) and the car suddenly lunges forward and makes you look like a novice who just passed his test yesterday...

I always have stop/start disabled (part of my start-up routine!) so I know this doesn't come into it. And yes the Corvette and Mustang are big atmospheric V8s, but its their reaction to the first instance of accelerator push when at a standstill that reminded me of the S4's 'reluctance' to move away once I got back to the UK. Still love the S4, but you do need to drive around this and be aware of it when 'nipping out'.

Is there not quite a difference between modern turbo direct injection engines and the ones fitted to the mustang and corvette's though? These tend to be normally aspirated and not drive by wire? With today's engines I think you'll find that with exhaust driven turbo's that there is always going to be a certain amount of lag, despite every effort to reduce it.
A bit like comparing a electrical powered steering systems with that of hydraulic or none..

 

[guestlinger]

Here is a very clear explanation about the lag. Listen to the full video, it’s little over 4 min. You’ll then understand why. He spoke to the Audi engineers about it. It’s an intentional design.

Interesting but it doesn’t fully add up for me because a) my previous B8.5 Stronic did not have this lag and b ) my current B9 Tiptronic does. The video explanation appears to be inconsistent with both of these scenarios


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[WesT-gefül]

Doesn’t your 3.0 have the torque converter though with the higher torque figures? The b8.5 is obviously different. That video is from 2016 when the b9 was launched.

 

[cuke2u]

He does call it stronic with dual clutches, whereas the s4 has a automatic gearbox...

 

[RB84]

Is there not quite a difference between modern turbo direct injection engines and the ones fitted to the mustang and corvette's though? These tend to be normally aspirated and not drive by wire? With today's engines I think you'll find that with exhaust driven turbo's that there is always going to be a certain amount of lag, despite every effort to reduce it.
A bit like comparing a electrical powered steering systems with that of hydraulic or none..

Agreed - was not comparing like for like. I was suggesting that time spent in two other cars, and then getting back into the S4, had helped remind me of the 'lag' I had been used to driving around for the past 14 months. That's all. Very different cars, and all I will say is that the Mustang's engine is cool, but the overall package is not for me vs. the S4. The Corvette is an absolute stonker, especially on the Yank roads and in the dry and warm. Would love to own one of those in the future if I move to a LHD country, or they start bashing them out in RHD.

Back to the lag..!

 

[guestlinger]

Doesn’t your 3.0 have the torque converter though with the higher torque figures? The b8.5 is obviously different. That video is from 2016 when the b9 was launched.

The video is associating the lag issue with DCT type gear boxes.

I am just pointing out the following:
- my B8.5 S4 with DCT did not have this lag
- my B9 A4 3.0TDI 272 without DCT does have this lag
- I also owned a B9 S4 without DCT which did have this lag

So all 3 of my experiences are opposite to the video explanation. Not saying the video is wrong. It’s just not as simple that DCT = lag


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[cuke2u]

I think we came to the conclusion that all the gearboxes in the current A4/S4's suffer from lag, to a degree or less, ages ago. The DSG in the B8 S4 may have had a different clutch arrangement to the ones in current A4's, not the B9 S4 which has a torque converter.
The 8.5 S4 had a whole load of different issues with their DSG gearbox which were more worrying than a bit of lag...

 

[WesT-gefül]

Basically if the gearbox goes wrong later on in the life of the car it’s basically a tin can. The cost of the gearbox is crippling inc labour. Having had mine replaced this year it worries me.

 

[syed123]

The video is associating the lag issue with DCT type gear boxes.

I am just pointing out the following:
- my B8.5 S4 with DCT did not have this lag
- my B9 A4 3.0TDI 272 without DCT does have this lag
- I also owned a B9 S4 without DCT which did have this lag

So all 3 of my experiences are opposite to the video explanation. Not saying the video is wrong. It’s just not as simple that DCT = lag


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I think you'll find that the actual maps that Audi use for the zf tip tronic just aren't suited for responsive driving.

The reviews I've read for even the 286 v6 tdi mention this lag, I'm surprised cause I heard the latest engines are part hybrid which is supposed to help economy and even lag with the new tech.

I had similar lag issues even when my 272 was tuned but the tcu flash and pedal box has got rid of this and the car performs reliably at least 80 percent of the time. It still does have its moments though..

What's the mileage of Ur car?

 

[ScottishA4B9]

The 190 TDI I have (manual) also suffers from terrible lag.

Must just be your one then. Mine has rapid acceleration as have all the demos I have driven....the 150 TDi and the Petrol on the other hand.......

 

[cuke2u]

I think you'll find that the actual maps that Audi use for the zf tip tronic just aren't suited for responsive driving.

The reviews I've read for even the 286 v6 tdi mention this lag, I'm surprised cause I heard the latest engines are part hybrid which is supposed to help economy and even lag with the new tech.

I had similar lag issues even when my 272 was tuned but the tcu flash and pedal box has got rid of this and the car performs reliably at least 80 percent of the time. It still does have its moments though..

What's the mileage of Ur car?

Which cars are you referring too because if they were hybrid with electric motor assist maybe that would help to reduce turbo lag but the A4 only is a mild hybrid...

 

[DotNetDude]

Which cars are you referring too because if they were hybrid with electric motor assist maybe that would help to reduce turbo lag but the A4 only is a mild hybrid...

This is a good point. I had assumed that "mild hybrid" meant some form of genuine electrical/motor assistance. However, when you actually look into it and find out that all they mean is a belt driven starter on the engine, so that it can smoothly get the engine back up to speed after coasting, then actually it becomes quite disappointing, and I felt somewhat misleading...

 

[syed123]

Which cars are you referring too because if they were hybrid with electric motor assist maybe that would help to reduce turbo lag but the A4 only is a mild hybrid...

The new a7,a6,q8 and a8

The 50tdi engines are supposed to have that tech and I do remember it saying somewhere that they help combat lag in a similar way the sq7 does with its 48v electric compressor

 

[cuke2u]

This is a good point. I had assumed that "mild hybrid" meant some form of genuine electrical/motor assistance. However, when you actually look into it and find out that all they mean is a belt driven starter on the engine, so that it can smoothly get the engine back up to speed after coasting, then actually it becomes quite disappointing, and I felt somewhat misleading...

I don't think the A4 has even that, just some regeneration technology and smart charging with start stop...

 

[DotNetDude]

The new a7,a6,q8 and a8

The 50tdi engines are supposed to have that tech and I do remember it saying somewhere that they help combat lag in a similar way the sq7 does with its 48v electric compressor

No, it really doesn't work like that, and it certainly won't combat lag. The 4 cylinder engines will have the 12V system, only 6 cylinder and v6 have the 48V with a 12V subsystem. But in both cases, the "mild hybrid" doesn't do anything other than recuperate energy and restart the engine after coasting using the belt driven starter, which is why I think it is misleading.

I don't think the A4 has even that, just some regeneration technology and smart charging with start stop...

The A4 will operate in the same way with the majority 2L (4 cylinder) engines having the 12V system as normal, with only 6 cylinder or V6 having the "new" 48V main electrical system. This is becoming standard across the entire Audi range, except RS models.

 

[CH 12]

Well I started this thread 2 yrs ago approx with many agreeing re the lag issue and then some saying they dont notice it with others coming in with irelevant statements. But finally it proved that those who noticed it, like myself, were correct and it was an issue. I say was an issue because my car had a service this week at the local dealer and complained yet again and they checked and there was a map update available along for the G/Box . it has made it so much better from standing starts (Still not instant but a hell of a lot better and noe aceptable) Audi obviously realised there was a problem and issued the remap. So get down the dealership and request it.To those who dont notice it I would not bother. I think this is the end of the thread a long awaited result.

 

[syed123]

Well I started this thread 2 yrs ago approx with many agreeing re the lag issue and then some saying they dont notice it with others coming in with irelevant statements. But finally it proved that those who noticed it, like myself, were correct and it was an issue. I say was an issue because my car had a service this week at the local dealer and complained yet again and they checked and there was a map update available along for the G/Box . it has made it so much better from standing starts (Still not instant but a hell of a lot better and noe aceptable) Audi obviously realised there was a problem and issued the remap. So get down the dealership and request it.To those who dont notice it I would not bother. I think this is the end of the thread a long awaited result.

Which engine do you have again?

I'm going in for a engine software update in April for my mapped 272 tdi plus new brake pads so I'd like to know what the update is called so I can bring it up with the dealer.

I have the tmc motorsport tcu flash and for the most part it's very good but unfortunately I've had to reflash quite a few times as I never always felt a difference.

To make things worse Audi did some software update in January for the pre sense and straight after that the car drove different - almost as if the tcu map had been overwritten.

I reflashed it and felt no difference and then Re flashed again and I did feel a difference, but after say a couple of hundred miles the car started acting up.

Now after all that it seems to be driving the way it should but only time will tell.

Maybe Audi have nailed the software this time for the gearbox?

Really wish there was a better flash out there. I had one from JFA automotive on my a3 s tronic years back and that was 100percent flawless.

Not something I'd say about tmc motorsport #cough#

Just want the car to be driveable most the time rather than when it wants to be!

 

[Aldi-Sport Chap]

Well I started this thread 2 yrs ago approx with many agreeing re the lag issue and then some saying they dont notice it with others coming in with irelevant statements. But finally it proved that those who noticed it, like myself, were correct and it was an issue. I say was an issue because my car had a service this week at the local dealer and complained yet again and they checked and there was a map update available along for the G/Box . it has made it so much better from standing starts (Still not instant but a hell of a lot better and noe aceptable) Audi obviously realised there was a problem and issued the remap. So get down the dealership and request it.To those who dont notice it I would not bother. I think this is the end of the thread a long awaited result.

I really hope so. Mine's going in for its first service v soon. I have recently hired both a Touran and an Octavia. Both Diesel and both DSG. They were orders of magnitude better than my laggy, delayed and hesitant 'box. When picking my car up again at the airport I'd already begun to rant as we were leaving the car park. It's worse when cold but always *****. I've tried several things including 2 visits to the stealership but the delay between pressing the loud pedal and anything at all happening is ridiculous. I've tried all modes to no avail but it's done over 17,000 of the last 18,000miles in what Audi claim to be "Dynamic".
Is it the drive by wire? Is it turbo lag? Is it a slow S-tronic 'box? Dunno but the Skoda was a drive by wire diesel turbo & if Skoda can sort it why can't Audi?

 

[cuke2u]

It's not the same gearbox, is it? The 3.0l diesel has the ZF automatic, whereas the skoda is a dsg, as you state..

 

[Aldi-Sport Chap]

It's not the same gearbox, is it? The 3.0l diesel has the ZF automatic, whereas the skoda is a dsg, as you state..

No. The 218 3.0 has the S-Tronic dual clutch 'box. You are right that the 272 and the S4 have the ZF8 as found on BMW and Jaguar.

Oh poo does that mean there is no update for my soporific S-Tronic?

 

[ZZidane]

I've tried not writing this post but I cant hold on any longer.

I've only had my 3.0 TDi 218 for a month and I'm already thinking about selling it due to this lag issue.

It is dangerous in my opinion. Mine lags in almost all situations but as mentioned roundabouts etc are the worst. I'm really disappointed in the car.

Had a Mercedes auto for 10 days and it was perfect. No lag whatsoever. You put your foot on accelerator and strangely enough the car started moving. Fancy that.

I'm just outside of the 30 days exchange policy as well.