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Lag - Delay - Hesitation

CH 12 May 7, 2017

  1. Klickflip

    Klickflip Quattro 4 life TFSI Owners Group Team Phantom quattro Black Edition S tronic

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    Yeah it was in manual using paddle shift. And accelerating in the same gear (3rd)
    This feathering feeling is more pronounced in full auto or sport. Once you're off into hard acceleration and shifting up it's fine, just the initial foot down moment.
    I hadn't used sport auto mode much, but used it a bit yesterday and quite impressed with it. Pretty responsive .
    Still think these cars have a strange non linear and changing accelerator response
     
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  3. Alexander Thomson

    Alexander Thomson Member

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    Is there any way you can film this and YouTube it? Probably the easiest way to explain what's happening. Also allows us to see a nice car going briskly :)
     
  4. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    I tend to use sport auto almost all the time, I guess though it might be torque limiting the initial acceleration...
     
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  5. monkey66

    monkey66 Active Member

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    I guess it is all about emissions control for the average driver. Whatever it is it is an intentional feature of the setup.

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  6. Klickflip

    Klickflip Quattro 4 life TFSI Owners Group Team Phantom quattro Black Edition S tronic

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    Yeah will try in the next week . Not sure it will translate to video as well. I guess we'd see revs rise , then speed go up after a small delay. But this will prob just look like turbo lag on the speedo.
    Whereas is much more of feeling thing of the drivetrain engagement dropping off and on again.
    Worth a shot for the crack tho !
     
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  7. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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  8. monkey66

    monkey66 Active Member

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  9. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    The whole of the vag cars...
     
  10. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    well, we're talking tiptronic not stronic, so thats why i was thinking it wasn't specifically transmission related.
     
  11. CH 12

    CH 12 New Member

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    As Funkfygibbon says this is Tiptronic and not S tronic I had the previous model S4 which had S Tronic and it was far better. No Lag. Even when I first complained to the dealership re the issue they took my old car out (after only a week of owning this model, as they had not then sold my old car) and they agreed it did not lag like the new one. Funkygibbon which dealer do you use? more complaints to the dealers the better, that is what I have been told then Audi finally resolve the issues.
     
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  13. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    I'm nearest to Peterborough audi but it's a lease from somewhere near London. Not taken to them yet as been too busy . But will refer them to this thread when I do.
     
  14. Daggerit

    Daggerit Well-Known Member Team Floret Silver TFSI Owners Group Team V6 Audi S4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Having just read up some stuff on various forums off the back of the ZF8 'box thread, I'm wondering if any of this lag could be down to the gearbox 'learning' to be lazy and sluggish from driving it nicely during break in? the BMW forums say that if you turn the ignition on, but not the engine, and hold the throttle down all the way past the kick down switch for 30 seconds and then turn the car off it should reset the gearbox.

    I don't know how much truth there is in this but might be worth trying for those feeling like the gearbox is too slow for them. Also found the following steps on a VW forum so maybe the procedure is different for VAG cars (wouldn't be surprised).

    1. Key on (don't start, just turn the car on)
    2. Gas down to floor for 10 sec
    3. While holding gas, turn key off
    4. Let go of gas
    5. Key on (again, on, don't start) for 5 min (for throttle re-adaptation). Touch nothing.
    6. Then start while touching nothing.
    7. Drive and see what happens.
     
  15. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    I dunno. I wasn't particularly gentle with mine in its "break-in" period. (It's a lease and also I've read that being gentle doesn't necessarily benefit the car in the long run).
    I have given up and just drive it in S mode most of the time now. It's a fair bit more responsive, whilst not exactly ideal it makes for a much more fun and less worrying about not pulling out at junctions etc in time
     
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  16. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    BANG!!!!
     
  17. Daggerit

    Daggerit Well-Known Member Team Floret Silver TFSI Owners Group Team V6 Audi S4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Is that a positive response?


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  18. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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  19. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    Apologies, missed the bit where it said don't turn on the engine, but gearboxes don't learn to be lazy...
     
  20. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    Did you even read what he wrote? What is it doing to the engine? Its not revving the engine for 30 seconds its putting the foot on accelerator for 30 secs and given that the accelerator is digital its not going to be opening any throttles by doing it anyway. So not sure where your shockedness is coming from.
     
  21. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    See above, ok?
     
  22. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    ok
     
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  23. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    Yeah really sorry, long day, interview for a new job, stress. Memo to self, read posts fully before replying...
     
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  24. Daggerit

    Daggerit Well-Known Member Team Floret Silver TFSI Owners Group Team V6 Audi S4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    That makes more sense as to your initial response then! Haha. Yeah, wouldn't recommend starting a car with the throttle at 100% for 30 seconds...

    I don't know, just trying to come up with something as the BMW guys seem to swear by it and have had some really positive responses to resetting the gearbox unit like this. It would be great if it helped people!


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  25. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    :) no worries, we all have those days! not sure about your point about gearboxes not learning to be lazy, i mean i don't know much about transmission let alone the intelligence of modern cars but it wouldn't surprise me if given that a car can adapt to driving styles for the gearbox to do the same.
    It is a longshot though , but i guess easy enough to test. But as I said earlier, i wasn't gentle on mine and i still get the laggyness.
     
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  26. Daggerit

    Daggerit Well-Known Member Team Floret Silver TFSI Owners Group Team V6 Audi S4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    That's fair enough, could be a non-starter. Like you say though, it's easy enough to test and if it helps then it's a bonus!


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  27. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    The thing is does the tiny ecu within a gearbox actually have the processing power, the memory and the os to learn. Having worked in IT for many years I'm not sure. It has taken years to produce a computer powerful enough to win at chess let alone one that adapts to a driving style. All the ecu can do is respond to readings from sensors and change their parameters using algorithms. To me this is not true adaptation at all...
     
  28. Daggerit

    Daggerit Well-Known Member Team Floret Silver TFSI Owners Group Team V6 Audi S4 Audi Avant Owner Group quattro

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    Yeah, I know what you mean. The way it was explained on the other forums was that it come pre-set with a bunch of maps and using he sensor data it essentially selects the one that aligns closest to those inputs. How true that is and whether it then subsequently switches between different ones I don't know.

    I agree that it's not like the gearbox has its own AI or something though.


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  29. monkey66

    monkey66 Active Member

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    I am at nearly 3k and my gearbox appears to be holding lower gears and higher revs for longer.

    I have also heard the exhaust open up more, the idle speed drop after 1k miles (it felt to me like the engine map changed and got more serious).


    The car certainly changes quite a lot from 1000-3000k

    One would imagine there is complex code operating on many parameters.



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  30. Mindzenty

    Mindzenty New Member

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    Having owned a number of auto Audi's over the years, most recently an A6 Bi-Tdi and now a B9 S4 Avant, my theory on this lag effect is that it is the way Audi map the torque converter in the ZF gearboxes. They are very slushy in 1st and 2nd gears where essentially the revs rise for a second before the torque converter begins to lock up and convert the revs into motion. It's actually quite CVT in operation in that first 1-2 seconds and is not a great feeling.

    In the roundabout scenario, you get an elastic band feeling where as the car doesn't move initially, you put more throttle on, making the revs rise even further, then the TC locks up and catapults you down the road.

    The delay in S-tronic is for very different technical reasons as you all know but I think people are mistaking lag for a slow torque converter lock-up. BMW seem to lock up much quicker than Audi using the same ZF 8 speeed and my S4 locks up quicker than my A6.

    But I think the slower lock up is a purposeful Audi brand characteristic that they engineer in because most people prefer a smoother response and don't even notice it like we do.

    I bet the engineers cringe seeing people talk about turbo lag. It can be measured in 10ths of a second on modern inside V engines and is not a factor!
     
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  31. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    In my experience with automatic gearboxes they all seem to have that effect because they have a fluid clutch, not a mechanical friction dry or wet version as in stronics or dsg's. I am not sure, and I might be incorrect, but it maybe the only programmable part of a converter would be the angle of the vanes..
     
  32. monkey66

    monkey66 Active Member

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    One would imaging this could all be altered in software but unlikely Audi ever will. They would probably argue that is what sport mode is for (I have noticed the idle speed increases by about 200rmp when sport mode is selected).

    I have found myself knocking into sport mode more and more at junctions though. I think I would prefer the sharper pick up when at a standstill in all the modes, you can get caught out.
     
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  34. CH 12

    CH 12 New Member

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  35. vinvinian

    vinvinian Active Member

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    They can be 'remapped I'm sure

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  36. monkey66

    monkey66 Active Member

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    I'm sure too. The response is intentional and in SW, probably to help with emissions testing.

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  37. Kestrel

    Kestrel Active Member Team Glacier TFSI Owners Group saloon Audi A4 It's my birthday

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  38. monkey66

    monkey66 Active Member

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    Software

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  39. Kestrel

    Kestrel Active Member Team Glacier TFSI Owners Group saloon Audi A4 It's my birthday

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    Thank you.
     
  40. FifiteenSuns

    FifiteenSuns New Member

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    Sort of happy owner of a new S5. It's 5 weeks old right now and I thought the lag was down to me. My previous 3.0 TDI A6 didnt have any lag so it was a surprise that the S5 is so unpredictable when pulling away. As others have said, selecting sport mode sorts the problem but not entirely (and I dont want to burn all the extra fuel in traffic just to sort this issue anyway). Today I read they have stopped S4 and S5 orders pending a major emissions and software review which leads me to wonder if I'm eventually going to end up with the problem solved with a software fix, leaving a less performant car and higher emmissions (Autocar's suggestion). Will Audi compensate me if I end up with a higher car tax as a result ? (yeah I know they wont !)

    This weekend will be spent looking for a replacement I think, just in case ....:cry:
     
  41. TripleD

    TripleD Audi S4 Avant Owner Team Mythos Audi S4

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    Having had the ZF gearbox in a BMW and now my S4, maybe I'm on my own, or use to the gear box, or maybe it's my digital driving style, but I'm not really experiencing a lag delay hesitation scenario.

    Could try DTUK's pedal box if you want to alter the throttle reactions to suit your driving.

    I'm with @cuke2u about the whole learning to be lazy, with the whole machine learning, AI, and NLP situations it takes a lot of computing power to 'learn' anything. The gearbox would be programmed to an optimal setting by Audi, which is probably different from the BMW setting, which is different from the Jaguar setting, which is different from the Maserati setting etc etc. You get the ideal, the gearbox is universal, but all applications and programming is different between Manufacturers.
    Not saying software doesn't get it's knickered in a twist, and the reset routine is engineered to simply re-write the settings back into memory.
     
  42. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    Let's not get ahead of ourselves with one article about sales being suspended especially when dealerships in the UK are not halting orders...
     
  43. Paddyh747

    Paddyh747 Member

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    Nearly 1000 miles on my S4, hasn't had any easy treatment for a run in period and can't say I've noticed any lag that I would consider dangerous.
     

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