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Lag - Delay - Hesitation

CH 12 May 7, 2017

  1. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    Yes I don't get all of this S-tronic being good, tiptronic not being. Tiptronic seems to be fine, But alas, this thread isn't talking about how smooth or not or how good/bad the Tiptronic is, the lag issue is relating to the time it take from putting your foot on the accelerator to when the car decides to move.
    Its not about when the gearbox decides to change gears as from a standstill it is in First and would still be in first by the time it gets to a certain rev/speed... but the delay happens in any gear regardless of needing to change.
     
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  3. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    Indeed it would be great to have that simple fact answered by those who are experiencing the problem - whether or not the revs are rising as expected in response to pressure on the accelerator pedal is critical to the diagnosis of this problem.

    Sorry, I'll be boring again and repeat myself. The only technical reason why throttle response will be less immediate for a turbo engine than a supercharged engine is turbo lag.

    Another boring technical explanation: S-tronic changes gear by opening one clutch and closing the other, and any shock resulting from mismatch between engine and transmission revs is absorbed by the clutch. Tiptronic changes gear by adjusting clutch pack pressure on gear sets, and any shock resulting from mismatch between engine and transmission revs is absorbed by the converter fluid. The fluid is better at absorbing this shock than the clutch pack which is why it will feel smoother.
     
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  4. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    I think I will also be boring and state that I feel we are actually in agreement and I don't think the argument is about 'turbo lag' but whether it is to the degree whereby it becomes dangerous. There will always be some lag however small it is, that is obvious, and maufacturers will find different ways to overcome this. I feel there yet no case to be proven it is dangerous to any degree and in my experience of having comparing turbo assisted and non-turbo assisted cars driven of several makes I have never found it to be so, least not with my present car. Even if you can find a review that states turbo lag is dangerous then it still needs to be proven by proper objective research, not somebody's opinion. But if you were to take anyone's opinion the very tiny minority who seem to think it is dangerous is massively, massively, outnumbered by those who don't...
     
  5. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    Sigh. But the problem isn't about turbo lag AT ALL. Please stop mentioning it at all.
    Turbo car or not, the car should pull away or move faster when pushing the accelerator.
     
  6. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    Sigh, sorry I wasn't replying to you and I have already suggested an answer to the op's issue. However it was CH 12 who posted a link to a review which was stating turbo lag, suggesting he thought it was, unless I am mistaken. Again, as there are no road tests that agree there is an issue with a delay in pulling away that makes it dangerous perhaps, instead of going around in circles trying to find a solution, we should leave to those who, objectively, can...
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  7. exca

    exca New Member TFSI Owners Group Team Scuba Audi A4 DSG

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    I have experienced this lag too (1.4tfsi) and to me this is not a turbo issue at all. When you are not moving the clutch goes to neutral so it doesn't wear. If you step on the gas, the engine will make revs first and then move the clutch which will result in a certaln lag, the one everyone experiences. If you would drive manually you would be able to 'feel' the clutch and its actionpoint being more able to anticipate faster, you would be stepping on the gas already and release the clutch when you want to go. The auto doesn't have eyes, so it has more lag. Live with it
     
  8. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    that doesn't go far to explain why you can experience the same lag when already driving and decide to put your foot down and having to wait the same 1-2 seconds before the car decides it wants to actually accelerate.
     
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  9. Daggerit

    Daggerit Well-Known Member Team Floret Silver TFSI Owners Group Team V6 Audi S4 quattro Audi Avant Owner Group

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    Again, to me anyway, this points to a throttle issue (sensor?) rather than an engine/turbo/drivetrain problem.
     
  10. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    indeed. I'm not going to be able to get to a garage for a few weeks, but will be taking and down and bringing it up with them. fully expect them to say "thats the way it/autos is/are".
    perplexes me why it seems so mixed feedback between S4/S5 owners. either all of the cars are like this (and I can't see how someone would not acknowledge that it drives this way unless head in sand.... it's pretty obvious and easy to test for) or it is happening to "some cars" and is therefore a fault and needs to be rectified.
     
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  11. Daggerit

    Daggerit Well-Known Member Team Floret Silver TFSI Owners Group Team V6 Audi S4 quattro Audi Avant Owner Group

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    Another thought. Can the people with this issue blip the throttle when it's in neutral? If not then it's not the engine and that would take the transmission out of the equation. I was definitely able to stab the accelerator for a split second and rev the S4 I tested.

    Edit: If it'll rev with a quick press on the throttle then it could also be something in the software?
     
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  13. Ad72

    Ad72 Active Member

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    As already mentioned but maybe not relevant my A6 Bitdi had massive lag/throttle issues from new. For example joining a roundabout from a standing start was dangerous as the throttle did nothing for what felt like ages so you would enter the roundabout far slower than anticipated. It however got progressively better as the miles built up. Maybe a combination of actual improvement and me adapting my driving style. After 3000 miles I don't recall it being an issue at all as I had forgot about the problem until reading this thread.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  14. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    Interesting, that would be great if that is the case. In fairness I only have about 1200 miles 0n the clock. But I definitely have this and it doesn't seem to have improved.
     
  15. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    OK, I'll shut up about turbo lag but I find the thread interesting so I'm staying involved whilst we don't have an answer.

    @exca - I believe your car has the s-tronic, so indeed there is a delay before the clutch packs activate the odd gearing. If this caused a noticeable delay then indeed that would be a mechanical issue needing investigation. However this thread is about the S4 which has the tiptronic which doesn't have a clutch in the manner you describe and so it is not in neutral.

    @Ad72 may be onto something. I still suspect that my car's systems are adaptive because I sense that they change depending on my driving style, but I have never been able to find any definitive information about it.

    @CH 12 - as the OP are you going to be able to confirm the revs issue? If the lag is somewhere in the throttle control system then you should be able to see it via the rev gauge. Maybe you can find time to replicate this lag in safe circumstances and tell us what you see on the dash. (I'd also like to know what the boost gauge is doing but I have agreed to shut up about that so no need :) )

    P.S. I haven't commented on the "dangerous issue". It is worth considering that this is a subjective matter. I'll guess that everyone has experienced the following at least once:
    1) Sitting behind a car wanting to turn right at a T junction. There is a string of cars coming from the right, all with their left indicators blinking. Despite this the driver in front does not pull out, but waits until all those cars have indeed turned left and then there is a gap with no cars coming. Such a driver is clearly risk adverse.
    2) Approaching a junction and a car pulls out right in front of you causing you to lift or even brake. Such a driver is clearly a risk taker (and a *****).
    So a lag may be an inconvenience to some but dangerous for others, due to their attitude towards risk.
     
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  16. monkey66

    monkey66 Active Member

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    I would suggest that whatever is being experenced is to do with mapping/software for the given situation. It may be a fault or intentional, it could be to protect certain components in specific set of conditions. It could be to try to improve emissions (VAG speciality).

    Reading this thread I think it is clearly not mechanical lag but created by a combination of sensor states. The question is why and is it a fault or a feature?

    Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
     
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  17. DEWCATI

    DEWCATI Member

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    If you were travelling along in say 4,5,6 ,if you floor it it will take time in an auto to change down if you engage kick down as it used to be called in an old auto.
    If you did the same thing in a manual it would take the same time to change gear or possibly longer.

    We have become inpatient as whole ,read the road and use the paddles makes for better driving
     
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  18. S32B

    S32B Well-Known Member Audi A5 S tronic Coupe

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    It's talked about here

     
  19. S32B

    S32B Well-Known Member Audi A5 S tronic Coupe

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    Also skip to 1.50

     
  20. Daggerit

    Daggerit Well-Known Member Team Floret Silver TFSI Owners Group Team V6 Audi S4 quattro Audi Avant Owner Group

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    Very handy videos for those with the s-tronic box.

    The thread started with S4 issues though, so this isn't an answer for that unfortunately...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. Jimbbobw1977

    Jimbbobw1977 Active Member

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    On a side note and probably not particularly helpful - My daily isn't an Audi, it is however a 180bhp 2.0 diesel fitted with the Getrag dual clutch transmission. It does not display any of the lag complaints as discussed above - posted just as a comparison to other manufactures vehicles. Power is instant and always available, and step off at the light no delay.
     
  22. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    I think we, and history, have established that VAG gearboxes suffer from lag to a degree. It's all over any of that manufacturers forums...
     
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  23. rich_16

    rich_16 Member

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    I totally agree but what perplexes me is that a golf GTI has a dual clutch VAG gearbox and they has no lag at all. Seems strange sporty Audis aren't the same. Admitidly the golf gti I owned was back in 2010 and I think was a 6 speed but it feels like we are going back wards!
     
  24. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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  25. Alexander Thomson

    Alexander Thomson Member

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    I've just asked this on another thread, but would it be feasible to have someone film you accelerating? Nothing Spielberg, just a shot of what you're describing? Might help us understand a bit more.

    The other thing I was thinking was a timed 0-60 - surely this would highlight any lag or hesitation from a sensor? If, as you say, there is 1-2 seconds lag, you should be looking at 6-7 seconds to 60 for an S4, not the 4-5 we can reasonably expect.
     
  26. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    The 0-60 is timed with launch mode which isn't laggy as you are already reving high to start with.
    I would film but I'm travelling for the next 2 weeks without the car so can't do anything right now.
    I did do a small amount of testing at the weekend. Can confirm that it doesn't appear to be anything related to not enough revs or downshifting etc. it was demonstrable when already in a low gear and no up or downshifting occuring (until speed and revs got up to where it should be).
    Sticking it in to full manual mode (sliding the shifter over rather than just handling the flappy paddles) seems to be a fair amount less laggy though. So maybe it is to do with the transmission after all. I'm (clearly) no mechanical expert. :)
     
  27. guestlinger

    guestlinger Member

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    Just to add to the conversation, I had a B9 S4 but didn't like it so traded it in for a new B9 3.0 TDI 272. From my experience the lag to pull away with the B9 S4 was an issue but I don't experience it with the TDI 272 at all. I've also noted in this thread that all 4 of the other B9 272 drivers to comment all have a positive experience so I wondered if it was the different mappings for the different torque profiles of each different A4 model?
     
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  28. Klickflip

    Klickflip Quattro 4 life TFSI Owners Group Team Phantom quattro Black Edition S tronic

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    Yes I have 2.0TFSI S Tronic, not a b9 but b8 7 speed .
    And have been reading loads about the lag and adapting my driving technique as I have experienced it and was bit concerned about it .
    Especially if you've come from driving a minaul all your life - it's just different and you have re-learn to drive diffently to get the best out out if, and when you do it's great.
    Occasionally it can hiccup and not quite do as you though it should but you have to understand how it works and think like that.
    Remember it's not a manual , and there would be a delay in manual also if you counted the time you went from neutral , shifting down or just declutching , letting clutch out releasing brake and giving enough refs to pull off . But as you were engaged in doing this you don't notice that delay till the car actually starts moving . But yes I think you can get off the line quicker from standstill with a manual, or could be perception.

    How to drive it best , quickest , smoothest? Aways try to keep moving even a bare crawl instead of stopping - learn to give yourself crawling space and read the traffic . then feather in the accelerator . Or if you do stop , let it craw away with no gas then once it's moving feather in the gas , then can plant it harder .
    Try driving spring in manual using the paddles, it's much more responsive , I often do when pulling out at junctions and roundabouts, then Put in D.
    And tbh it's more fun pulling away (quickly) that way
    You can boot it from a standstill and with the handbrake on , it releases in 0.3 sec and pulls away a bit jerkily , so I prefer the crawl method .
    Also using manual paddles or sport when pulling away will allow you keep in lower gear for longer , as It can feel sluggish if it's changing up 2 secs later , then another two. So you'll not be spooling up the turbo.

    I also had a 2.0T b7 manual and found it laggy pulling away but that was definitely the turbo lag.
    With the s tronic , it's definitely the box , and then maybe a touch of turbo lag.

    One thing I believe that when you are stationary with brake or handbrake on, whether in N or D it actually declutches , and even after you release brake it has to check brakes are fully disengaged and re-engage clutch to save potential wear and damage and his takes a second or two.
    Like I said before imagine driving manual you are in nuetral and have to put in first , clutch revs etc - how long does that take to actually pull away ?
    If you are already in gear and just need to release clutch and gas it's much quicker , so by using the crawl method you always have it in gear .

    Apologies for writing a short essay or rehashing the obvious .. But I've done a lot of driving , testing and reading to get to as smooth and responsive as possible with my S Tronic. As I was a really smooth flowing driver in manuals often decluching , coasting and rev matching , bliping whilst changing gear.
    One thing that is impressive is how the changes once off the line are imperceptible compared to other autos.
    Also try driving without braking , it makes you anticipate traffic and really helps, once you get in the habit and flow of that it's really enjoyable.
    - then floor It using the paddles once out of that roundabout :)
     
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  29. ABYSS

    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor Team Ara Blue S3 Saloon Black Edition

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    you guys need to consider the Pedalbox+ as it certainly helps with the throttle lag. Im running one on our S4 (when the tuning box is switched off as that helps throttle lag considerably on its own), an it certainly helps with throttle lag...
     
  30. thefunkygibbon

    thefunkygibbon Member

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    nice plug, ABYSS!

    Klickflip - great write up, it all seems to tally up with what i have been experiencing myself from trying things this past few weeks. one thing it still doesn't explain though is the delay when putting foot down when already at speed. there is still a noticeable delay until it decides to wake up and move. and its not that it's having to think about down or upshifting either as when it does "wake up" it stays in that same gear until the revs rise up.

    pretty sure i've said this again and again so apologies for repeating myself, but it seems that all of these explanations seem to miss out this rather important aspect.
     
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  31. Klickflip

    Klickflip Quattro 4 life TFSI Owners Group Team Phantom quattro Black Edition S tronic

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    Thanks @thefunkygibbon !

    Was driving today in manual and observing gas peadal and engine responses. Yes agree with you there is a delay and some form on not linear / direct feel & response compared to my old B7 - are the newer b8/9s maunuals fly by wire as well and have the computer overrid9ng the accelerator?

    I definitely think that the gas pedal is linked to software that the decides how much to actually give and when , to control power delivery.
    Today when pulling out of my road in D , I had the gas down a bit and it was only doing 10mph, I had to give it loads of travel to get it going 20mph , feels really strange . Then once you are doing 20mph the pedal response picks up .
    I have read on VAG forum that it relative to current speed and gear and changes , which is a bit annoying because of never quite know where it's at or how hard you need to press pedal.

    I've experienced this as well when over taking in M , a perceptible delay then whoosh and you ave to back off - I don't believe this is only turbo lag of the 2.0TFSI , there's definitely some gremlins at work. Also sometimes it feels like it's declutching slightly as you put pedal down , but no more speed is had . Whereas in a full manual what you press is what you get .

    One more thing is the reviews of the s-tronic say lighting fast changes , i find it takes 1 sec or more sometimes to change , whilst the change itself may be quick there is rev matching and some declutching / clutch riding to smooth the change which takes the time. Changing down is definitely quicker.

    For me an auto is great living in city centre and enjoy the paddles , but for pure driving fun a manual is better . Tho I get smile accelerating off in the distance quickly using the paddles , feels cool in a computer tech or F1 kinda way :)
     
  32. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    Try putting it in sport and see if you can note the difference, I can...
     
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  34. DarGri

    DarGri Active Member Team Ibis S-line owners group TDi quattro Audi A4 S tronic

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    My old 8.5 M-Tronic had this issue, I got around it in the end by turning the traction control off if I thought I needed a quick exit.

    The one I had before ended up getting a new gearbox to try and resolve it. After much searching eventually it came down to simply being how long the entire system takes to engage forward drive. Whenever it came out of Audi for anything it was as sharp as a knife but sighing 2/4 days it was back tonormal.

    Has anyone tried simply stopping on level ground, engaging D and just releasing the brake, don't touch the throttle, wait and see how long it takes for the car to start crawling.

    Usually about 1-2 seconds
     
  35. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    Also if you have it, ADS dynamic mode changes the throttle response (and not just because it switches to S).
     
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  36. Klickflip

    Klickflip Quattro 4 life TFSI Owners Group Team Phantom quattro Black Edition S tronic

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    From memory I don't have that delay and Just tested to make sure .
    As long as you release handbrake and sit in D with foot on brake. As soon I lift foot brake it moves straightaway. Only delay sometimes if on a hill or wheels are sitting in pothole or at speed bump , and would imagine that requires it to think and give more gas to get moving from its normal pull away.
     
  37. ub7rm

    ub7rm Active Member Team Ibis Audi S4 Audi Avant Owner Group

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    I've not read every post in detail here so forgive me if I'm covering old ground but personally I don't notice any lag to speak of on take off, however I do notice that when you give a little bit of throttle to speed up a bit there can be a delay. I haven't turned it off myself but I'm actually 99% sure this is due to the freewheeling setting of the gearbox. This is enabled by default and kicks in when you are cruising. There is a setting in the MMI to turn it off. When you stomp on the go pedal there is no lag.

    I don't think this is turbo lag, the boost pressure is quite low and looking at the boost gauge its very fast to react to getting on and off boost, in fact it surprising how little the turbo is utilised in 'normal' driving.
     
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  38. EddieRS3

    EddieRS3 Active Member

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    ADS changes throttle response?

    So speccing a suspension upgrade genuinely changes the throttle?
     
  39. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    I am sure it only changes the throttle settings in the same way the mode settings do on a car without the dynamic suspension. It is just linked...
     
  40. Dippy

    Dippy Well-Known Member Team Monsoon Audi S5 Black Edition

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    Caveat: On the B8 S5 the ADS Engine:dynamic setting changes throttle response. I was assuming that this is also true for the B9.
     
  41. Klickflip

    Klickflip Quattro 4 life TFSI Owners Group Team Phantom quattro Black Edition S tronic

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    And I think you may be able to access the engine part even if you don't have the ADS button , using Carista app / ob2 or vagcom?
     
  42. Klickflip

    Klickflip Quattro 4 life TFSI Owners Group Team Phantom quattro Black Edition S tronic

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    Did some More 'testing' yesterday and if you give it welly when say already going 50 in M , there appears to be a second while revs go up but it's not transferred to the wheels . (Usng M so there is no kick down , or auto gearchange happening)
    Could this be the gearbox software saving sudden stress ?
    It definitely feels like it's partially declutching then re-engaging and feathering in the power. Instead of the jolt and instant power delivery you'd get from a manual transmission.
    Is this what others are feeling?
     
  43. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member TFSI Owners Group S-line owners group saloon Audi A4

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    You are using the paddles then and just going down one gear?
     

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