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Ko4 hybrid which one?

s3evil34 Jan 31, 2018

  1. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    So been looking at ko4 hybrids just want some advive on which one to chose? Want a fairly fast spool. Been looking at beach buggys hybrids. Also want to keep the standard intercoolers. Trying to hit 300bhp
     
  2. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    honestly forget about the standard intercoolers an FMIC isn't for styling it is to keep the inlet air temperature down to stop pre-ignition and your engine from blowing up when the mapper wants to advance the timing (I think so anyway).

    You can almost get to 300hp with a standard K04, fuel pump and injectors with a b5 tip and decent air filter, DP and FMIC ( I got to 225 g/s MAF which is about 275BHP and that's the limit of the fuel injectors)

    but if you are going for 300BHP you need engine internals and if you are doing that you may as well go for 350BHP Badgers 380 K04 Hybrid includes air intake and exhaust manifold - and has been proven to reach 400BHP in the right environment.

    I'm pretty sure if you message beachbuggyturbos he will advise against trying to keep the side mounted intercoolers
     
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  3. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    Yeah the only reason i want to keep my standast intercoolers is I have a scan gauge plugged in and I never get past 42 on my intake temps But if needed i would replace it. I would like ti keep the internals standard. I thought after 330 u had to forge the rods only as rest is alreadyy forged.
     
  4. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    If you want to keep internals standard get a fmic 3” dp and go stage 2 anything’s past stage to and you would want to do the rods
     
  5. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    42 is terrible. It will only be terrible-er when tuned.

    It’s torque that kills rods. Find a tuner that understands this and you can play the lottery with good odds. Just know your hp will be limited as hp is a function of torque
     
    Stuart B likes this.
  6. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    Karl is right, Personally I don’t see the point in going hybrid and turning it down if going hybrid or any bigger turbo might aswell do it right, unless it’s so you can say “I’ve got a hybrid turbo”
     
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  7. Pasteurised

    Pasteurised Active Member

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    I run a GT28 on stock engine, torque limited to 260lbft. Thats gives me nearly 340bhp at 6800rpm.
     
  8. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    42 degrees is way too high... ECU starts pulling timing out after 35 degrees to protect the engine... they are barely capable of keeping IAT's decent on std power let alone anything remotely mapped...

    300hp on a std K04 is the exception rather than the rule... most struggle past 270hp these days

    Ignore the the internet regarding 'forging'... its rubbish... (and to 'forge' is not a verb unless you are a blacksmith ;)) I have seen valves drop and rods bend on std power... these are not new engines...

    Getting 300hp from a hybrid would mean running less boost.. this will in theory would stave off rod failure but its torque and the sudden loading (typically at spool from low revs) can stress the rods enough to bend... its the chance you take but mapping properly to roll boost in can help preserve the engine a bit longer

    <tuffty/>
     
  9. hydro s3

    hydro s3 S3 amk Team Ming Blue Audi S3

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    Open her up put in good rods and new valves and valve guides and stem seals. Then go put on ur fmic,3"downpipe either sports cat or de-cat,badger 5 80mm tip and 80mm blue jetex air cone and then ur hybrid and a good map.
    That should see you up at 350hp or maybe a bit more.
    Then you will have a reliable engine and you won't need to turn anything down and you can enjoy the max what the hybrid turbo can do.
    Instead of only getting probably half or less of what the hybrid turbo can do. Thats what I think would be your best approach to it anyway.
     
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  10. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    42 is hot - the fire is supposed to be after the fuel and spark not before - I think my side mounts went up to about 35 but then about 27 after FMIC
     
  11. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    where did you get 330 as an ok number from?
     
  12. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    hydro s3 and Tj 0785 like this.
  13. hydro s3

    hydro s3 S3 amk Team Ming Blue Audi S3

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    What did you use to check your temps?
     
  14. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    Sorry i ment to say the hotest temp i have recorded so far is 32 not 42 .i used a universal scan gauge /fault reader that is plugged into my obd the whole time . mind you not seen summer yet so will increase .but with a remap decat and a hour of flat out use it hit 32 max on a mild day .As for who told me 330 was about the limit .Read it on a fair few Threads on here .as long as the torque is not to much .
     
  15. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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  16. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    Why don’t you want to open the block up!
     
  17. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    cost wise really .but if i need to i will
     
  18. Rainbird

    Rainbird Active Member

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    Costs far more to replace an engine that's thrown a rod
     
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  19. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    A cheap job ain’t good and a good job ain’t cheap, as they say do it right and do it once
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  20. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    just Android Torque pro Air Intake Temperature sensor
     
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  21. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    BHP is nothing but noise ad fuel consumption at high revs - it's Torque that makes a fast car feel fast.
     
  22. SamHendry

    SamHendry Active Member

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    I would go stage 2 mods, portmatch your ko4 turbo to ported Chinafold, bigger injectors, should see you close to your desired number.
     
  23. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    Portmatch the Ko4 sounds good but cost wise cant be far off buying a hybrid kit im guessing .Thanks for the advise guys lots to think about . so just to confirm the max torque for the 1.8t is 285 after that open her up ? i no at the end of the day demanding more from any engine has its risks and could always go bang at any time .but i would like to take the engine to its max safe max of course but if she lets go at anypoint a second had engine is not to painful ! Not that i want that to happen .
     
  24. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    It will cost a few hundred to portmatch and a few grand to go hybrid turbo exhaust manifold and injectors as you will need fmic 3” downpipe which ever way you go stage 2 or hybrid
     
  25. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    Ok labour costs as well so could say 500 800 ? This could be a serious option for me then . badger5 somewhere like that im guessing could do this ?
     
  26. chisharpe

    chisharpe New Member

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    To the op I'm currently going this route so far I have
    Bbt k418t
    3" downpipe
    550 injectors
    Fuel pump
    Turbo will be port matched to standard mani for now.
    Fmic wellycooler

    I'm hopping to get 300 or there abouts with simpatetic tuning the plan is get this in around august rebuild an engine over winter and then in the summer put a forged engine in with head valves done add a ported Chinese manifold maybe some wmi if it can stretch and get it retuned. I know it's **** about face style but I have a little turbo play and my clutch isn't the newest so it's a two birds kind of thing
     
  27. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    Sounds good im currently at 251 with decat b5 tip panel filter stage 1 map. I was thinking what a fuel pump injectors and fmic and n75 delete with a map would do? if anything.sometimes little mods make a difference
     
  28. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    How does the n75 delete effect the power? Wouldn’t the injectors be a waste if the turbo has no more to give standard injectors can cope with a standard ko4 on stage 2 map only see people changing injectors when upgrading the turbo
     
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  29. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    you don't really mean an N75 delete do you? - that's the electronic boost controller.

    without engine internals you don't need bigger injectors or extra fuel pump (maybe replace the existing if it's tired) as their maximum fits with the maximum engine internals. If I got another FMIC I would get an airtec they are a little more than buying a toyosports and pipework, but come in 3 parts (excluding clips) instead of 12 parts which I have .
     
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  30. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    ha ha TJ answered the same thing at the same time
     
  31. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    The common successful Engine Stage 2 updates are
    1 AIR IN (Filter, TIP, FMIC)
    2 AIR OUT (3IN DP + DOG BONE Mount upgrade)
    3 MAP (to ensure the AIR FUEL RATIO is safe and the LOAD is increased to about 20PSI (progressively for safety) + maybe max RPM to 7100 - Experts then twiddle with the timing until timing retards for safety (knock) then back it up again so it doesn't retard again

    = 275-280 BHP 270 lb/ft

    I had so many problems with my car it took me ages to get to upgrade it, as every week something unrelated broke :)

    brakes are important, the standard S3 brakes are poor but my new discs and brembo pads on the S3 are at least 50% better than on the TT I now have.
     
  32. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    I was only doing the n75 as a whilst I'm there sort of mod . Ok did not think i would gain with a fuel pump etc. But just seeing if there was any small thing i missed to get a bit more power before I try porting or hybrid.
     
  33. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    but the N75 is the device which keeps the boost on. if you delete it you will need another boost controller (MBC or aftermarket EBC) otherwise (i think) it will only be on actuator pressure which is about 6psi. there is an N249 which is the jungle of pipes and vacuum container on the cam cover which was the first thing I removed from my S3. This apparently improves DV operation, but the device has two purposes to cut the boost in an accident (S3s have FBW so that cuts boost in accident already, but it also keeps the boost on between 1st and 2nd gear which you lose when it is removed) - I removed it as they usually leak.
     
  34. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    I no boost leak test might help to if leaking.270lft would be perfect. And u rekon thats about 275bhp. Would be nice to hit that level of power with standard internals
     
  35. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    I read that the n75 resrics boost but fitting aftermarket hepls u increase it safely. Or is that not the case
     
  36. Tj 0785

    Tj 0785 Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Bronze Supporter Audi S3

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    Not seen any of the big turbo/hybrid cars on here with aftermarket boost controllers could be a good reason for it. If you want the car quicker what about losing a bit of weight (car not you, or maybe you I’m not judging) the front seats are stupidly heavy and can be swapped for light weight bucket seats
     
  37. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    To increase boost you should increase load in the map, making changes to the components eg MBC which my car was fitted with when I bought it could be wound to 30PSI, but the fuel would not be able to keep up thus lean - heat - melt.

    there is a section in the ME7 map which helps request the boost on WOT (I think)

    upload_2018-2-10_21-6-32.png

    Examples

    BAM
    Generic Stage 1
    My S3 Map LDRXN

    Boost can be roughly estimated from load request

    upload_2018-2-10_21-2-59.png

    there's clearly more to it than that - fuel, timing, logging.

    If you are planning on getting a map, then you shouldn't take out the key components used to manage the power.

    Incidentally, if you unplug the N75 it will simply pass the pressure from the charge pipe through to the actuator eg 6psi on a standard K04 - but... I suppose it does electronically restrict the boost to the charge pressure requested in the map - so it's not really "a restriction" it is operating to the ECU Map's commands.
     
  38. s3evil34

    s3evil34 Member

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    After this i will now be keeping the n75. Interesting charts. I had a preloaded map put on my car so I no a custom would give me more. Do u have a dyno printout of your stage 2? Or any stage 2 tune cheers
     
  39. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    There's several on here I think, I only have a dyno of my stage 1 which was already on. I had a MAF reading of 225 g/s @ 6500 and stable AIT logged under 30 degree c, no knocking reported from logging and AFR going down to 0.85 under load - you cannot trust Android Torque but that was 250 HP @ Wheels and 247 lb/ft @ Wheels so make of that what you want.
     
  40. hydro s3

    hydro s3 S3 amk Team Ming Blue Audi S3

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    Stuart B I got one of those android device and the torque app pro.
    I have set it to intake temps and a few others. Could you tell me how you used it for logging ur g/s.
     

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