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  1. Olly P

    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    Just wondering if anyones tried the IHI big turbo kit from JBS? A friend of mines looking for a upgrade for his S3. It seems like quite a good priced kit, its £2,227, plus fitting £575 and mapping £500 = £3,302. Looks like you get around 350 bhp and 340 of torque! I know thats still a lot of money, but looks like a good alternative to fitting a hybrid (presuming your going to do it propperly with a FMIC DP etc). Could just about get away with running it on standard internals too.

    http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/category/103/underslung

    http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/product/41/ihi-stage-1-300330bhp


    [​IMG]
    :blackrs4:
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2009
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  3. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    Max torque isn't very low down is it...

    <tuffty/>
     
  4. Boxxer1973

    Boxxer1973 Registered User

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    i had a jbs04 and within 13 months the tubular manifold had failed 4 times and the turbo failed. got a refund on the manifold but had to pay out for a new turbo myself at full retail even though it was only 2 weeks over warranty but within the 12000 miles
     
  5. Olly P

    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    Looks fairly smooth and can hold the power until much higher? Def not as much torque low down, going to be the same with any BT though. There a dyno of the JBS K05 hybrid bellow:

    ...yea, I've heard similar things about Hybrids failing after relitively low miles, makes a cheep BT a more appealing option!

    [​IMG]
     
  6. mat20vt

    mat20vt Registered User

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    try bill at badger5, sure he could put a kit together for you. he done mine and its spot on :)
    see my build thread for details of it
     
  7. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    Looking at those graphs, I'd say the hybrid looks way more fun to drive. Say you're driving along and you put your foot down at about 4500rpm to overtake someone. With the IHI you're only making 200bhp and 245lbs/ft. With the hybrid you'd be pushing 250bhp and 315lbs/ft. You might get more out of the IHI eventually, but for road driving I'd much prefer the K04.
     
  8. S3 Paul

    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    Mine is the car dyno'd with the JBS05 on.
    It does pull well from low down. out pulls cars with more power because they dont get good power till much further up the rev band.
     
  9. ianysm

    ianysm Registered User

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    What clutch is it running with that sort of power? How much can a std clutch handle?

    Mine is being changed this week as its started slipping (stage 1) so i bet with that sort of torque it'll not last long!
     
  10. jm-baker

    jm-baker Registered User

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    I think i will go the Hybrid option.

    For the money you appear to get (from the graphs).

    Torque:

    Hybrid = 295 ft/lb @ 4000 rpm
    Big Turbo = 235 ft/lb @ 4000 rpm

    Max Torque:

    Hybrid = 330 ft/lb @ 4750 rpm
    Big Turbo = 338 ft/lb @ 5750 rpm.

    So that's almost the same torque @ 1000 rpm less for the hybrid! And a huge difference at 4000 rpm. 70 ft/lb more on the hybrid!!

    For the driving style and use i have of my car, this will be a great benefit.

    Power:

    Hybrid = 205 BHP @ 4000 rpm
    Big Turbo = 160 BHP @ 4000 rpm ( hybrid = 45 bhp more)

    Hybrid = 283 BHP @ 5000 rpm
    Big Turbo = 255 BHP @ 5000 rpm ( Hybrid = 28 bhp more)

    Hybrid = 300 BHP @ 5500 rpm
    Big Turbo = 300 BHP @ 5500 rpm ( power equals )

    Hybrid = 300 BHP @ 6000 rpm
    Big Turbo = 337 BHP @ 6000 rpm

    Hybrid = 300 BHP @ 5750 rpm
    Big Turbo = 350 BHP @ 6250 rpm

    So anywhere above 5500 rpm the BT has the benefit. And i personally dont use the power in the last 1000 odd rpm all that often, so i dont think i would require it, unless i did alot of track use maybe. But i would imagine the BT would be nice when pulling in long gears on the motorway etc.

    Just some data i correlated for my own reference as i am trying to decide myself....

    James
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2009
  11. s3_kev

    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    only problem with hybrid is no one seems to really no the reliability and who actually makes the best one for power/reliability???
     
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  13. S3 Paul

    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    The reliability i think is partly down to other mods and they way you drive.

    As for a clutch...
    Mine has done 18 months of hard driving and never slipped. It is a standard sasch unit on a new luk duel mass flywheel.

    That said im mid rebuild and this time im going for a sasch power clutch but with a duel mass flywheel as i use it everyday
     
  14. jm-baker

    jm-baker Registered User

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    I agree Kev. I am also concerned of the reliability, especially as i have just had a turbo go on stage 1. Not blaming the map in any way, just that is it a costly failure if it happens. And a big job to strip the car, clean all the oil out the exhaust and Intercoolers etc.

    If i fit a hybrid as my replacement, i want it to be reliable!

    Here is a graph i have as a comparison of the JBS 350 BT kit and the K04 Hybrid.

    Clearly shows the pro's and con's of the two....

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2009
  15. Olly P

    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    yea, there right on the limit where as the IHI shouldn't be. I know what you mean, there's loadsa companies offering hybrids but no good info on them! Thats what would put me off!

    I was looking at a thread on seatcupra.net and people seemed to rate the turbo dynamics hybrid.

    http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144428&hilit=hybrid

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    If anyones got any dyno's of different hybrids, put some pics up!
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  16. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    Excuse my ignorance, but your sig says you already have 310bhp. Why would you be considering a hybrid if you're already making that sort of power with whatever turbo you're running?

    Not sure I'd be overly worried about the reliability issues. You're putting less stress into the engine than having a bigger turbo with more power and higher rpm. That IHI is running right on the limits of the engines internals.
     
  17. S3 Paul

    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    If the ihi ibiza is the car im thinking of im sure its had a full rebuild now.

    Twin scroll kits arent bad but ... if your going big then thats abit half hearted.
    On standard internals i would say the cost of a hybrid k04 with a good down pipe and decat will see you right,

    Im building an engine to take upto maybe 450 bhp. The plan is maybe upgrade to a GT3071r in a year or so.
     
  18. Dani_B19

    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    For the engine internals would you be ok just replacing the rods for running a maxed out hybrid to prevent bent rods etc?
     
  19. jm-baker

    jm-baker Registered User

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    I dont think a hybrid will ever require rod upgrades.

    At 300 bhp and 330 ft/lb you are near the limit of the hybrid if you want it to run within rasonable limits. Unless you spend more on a manifold, as i have not seen any results for this setup yet. But even with a manifold upgrade, the flange size for the turbo->manifold connection is still limiting the setup.

    This is JBS maxed out on standard manifold and exhaust. With EGT's hitting 850 DegC, which is a bit much reliability concerns.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. S3 Paul

    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    Yes. but i would atleast rebuild the rest.
    Its beleived that standard S3 pistons ( BAM ones any way ) can take upwards of 400bhp ( dependand on the tuning to get it there )
    a hybrid k04 will never make this power. It will produce alot of heat at its limit too. so think intercooler and make sure your coolant run on pump is working. avoid the nasty cracks in the exhaust housing that make k04s and k03s fail.

    As far as im aware... its torque that bends rods.
    The hybrid k04 from jbs will make rod bending torque if not mapped correctly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2009
  21. Olly P

    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    Yea, the previous owner spent a small fortune on a MTM 310 bhp kit, from what i've read its basically a MTM hybrid turbo. Trying to get info for a mates S3 and another ones LCR, the MTM kits far too expensive so cant really reccomend them getting one!

    So has anyone used the turbo dynamics hybrid? looks pretty good?
    Cheers for the BT vs Hybrid dyno jm-baker, very usefull!
     
  22. Dani_B19

    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    What do you mean rebuild the rest paul? What would that consist of, exhaust valves etc? I wouldnt want to realy spend alot if you get me.
     
  23. homer_s

    homer_s Registered User

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    i would take those RR graphs with a pinch of salt personally.
    This RR graph is for the same ibiza a few month later.
    [​IMG]


    http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/GallerySCN010308.htm

    jbs's graph looks nothing like this and no ihi turbo can hold torque like it does on jbs's rollers.

    personally i would give my money to badger5 or jabba because it will pay off in the long run
     
  24. S3 Paul

    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    Well i personaly have seen dyno read outs from JBS and then the same cars with no other mods gone on to make readings of within 5bhp and 15lb of torque on dyno days at completely diffrent companys. So i would say the rollers read quite well.
    That said i am all ways sceptical of rolling road figures from the place the car is mapped. Just some times seem a bit too good to be true.



    Dan,
    I mean i would replace the piston rings and bearings (big ends and mains ) and i would also say a new oil pump as this is the heart of the engine.
     
  25. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    The hybrid option is more appealing to me, my car is a daily driver not a track car. I used to have a Mk2 Escort with a 1660 x-flow engine on twin 40's. The cam on that did shag all below 3500rpm and have to drive in third to stop it from juddering at 30mph. ****** fast when you drive it hard but awful around town...

    I am gonna rebuild the bottom end of my engine but I think I will use a stroker kit and make it a 2ltr. Gives more torque out of the box, better spin up on the turbo (apparently) and combined with the hybrid K04 (prob a CR Turbos one) should give me enough power to keep my happy and drivability which is more important to me. Shouldn't need to run silly boost levels either to get good power so should be reliable.

    Plus if I do decide to go BT after that, all the work is done :)

    <tuffty/>
     
  26. Dani_B19

    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    Sorry for all the questions here but my knowledge on engine internals is only basicish but whats a stroker kit?
     
  27. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    Essentially contains the crank from a 2ltr FSI engine which is of a longer stroke than the 1.8ltr engine.

    The sticky big turbo thread has most of the info about this... I thought seeing as I was going to have the engine in pieces I may as well go 2ltr.

    <tuffty/>
     
  28. RichA3Turbo

    RichA3Turbo Moderator Moderator

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    You will never see a honest 349bhp from the IHI... On a VF-34-18 you will get about 320bhp and on a VF34-20 about 330-340bhp but a fair bit more torque. Also i don't know what the JBS manifold is actually like or the setup is at all to be honest, but i've had the Jabba IHI kit for 5 years now woth no problems whatsoever and my graphs look much much better than that
     
  29. Olly P

    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    Any pics of your dyno graph? If you dont mind me asking, how much did your set up cost you?

    ... then there are the eliminator turbo kits. Theres a thread on it here with a write up half way down
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  30. homer_s

    homer_s Registered User

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    s3 paul, look at the difference between the dyno plots......
    one of them is wronge and my money would be on jbs's!!

    have you had your car RR somewhere other than jbs??
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  31. Shy19s

    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

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    Are all these prices including the new injectors and custom remap too?
     
  32. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    That's an unwell IHI if it's only making 271bhp. I'm not suggesting that it'll push to 350, but it looks like you're trying to compare two extremes. You can achieve 270+ with a normal K04-23. But, if it helps to gauge these things, here's another graph of the same car on a different dyno.

    [​IMG]

    Different car, but another Seat IHI
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2009
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  34. homer_s

    homer_s Registered User

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    Chris3-thats a different car for the awesome gti rr and both were mapped by jabba, the bottom one is my mates old car and is a leon vf34 p18

    the ibiza jbs mapped wasn't ''unwell'' just mapped badly. the guy who owns the ibiza ended up having it remapped by jabbasport (i saw the ibiza at jabba and asked about it because i saw the downpipe)

    this is the ibiza for sale
    http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/989480.htm

    have a read of his build thread if your thinking of spending your hard earned on a BT
    http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=144453
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2009
  35. S3 Paul

    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    Well my dyno print out fits with how the car pulls.
    Strong from just over 2000rpm and doesnt let off until the red line.
    If your comparing Jabbas rollers to JBS a local lad to me has a mk5 ed30 golf that makes as near as makes no diffrence bang on the same power on both sets of rollers.

    There are so many things that can change from dyno day to dyno day. Mine made 260 then 296 on the same day with no work carryed out at all.
    The car had a strange small boost control issue meaning it could read anything at any time.

    Personaly if i was shelling out for a big turbo and tubular manifold it would be a GT30 76r not a "small" ihi.
     

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