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Its turning intoo a track car ....

scotty_24 Jul 19, 2016

  1. daz-20vt

    daz-20vt Well-Known Member

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    Tuition paul!!
    So much more important than most mods.
    Glad to see your having fun man. Whats next on the track front?
     
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  3. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    Cheers man, was a great day and I'm really getting to grips with how the car behaves.
    There are some, the guys haven't had a chance to upload them yet so I'll get them up asap.
    I need to invest in a go pro for some in car action!

    I know Daz, even having Alyn (Megane owner) give me a few tips made a massive difference. Learning gear selection for corners, short shifting to gain more torque coming out a corner onto a straight instead of nearly revving out on the corner etc.

    Car wise, get this blow sorted. I'm scared its something manifold related but it doesn't have any cracks from what I can see.
    Get some pads, I've finally managed to wear the DS2500 down so I'm thinking DS3000.
    The next big thing will be some decent coilovers like the BC.
    One thing I've learned is that the back end on the S3 likes to rotate and sometimes try to catch you out. I've learned to control it and use the haldex to push out of corners. But one of those HPS controllers may be on the cards.

    Or.................


    Buy a 172 / 182.
     
  4. daz-20vt

    daz-20vt Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm
    Actually me and prawn found the s3 was dead out back. Not wanting to consistantly/controllably turn at all. Whats your rear toe?

    If you want this as a track car i will say this once and its FANTASTIC advice.

    DO NOT BUY BC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  5. daz-20vt

    daz-20vt Well-Known Member

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    Ds3000 minimum mate. Seriously.
    Its pointless having ASN stig if you dont follow his advice.
    If he says they are poop for track.
    They are poop!!!

    One thing i learned from nick (in the cery small time we had) was how early you need to turn in. Felt odd to me. I remember a few corners at bedford being miles different than how i would have taken them.

    Maybe he was wrong and i was right :rockwoot:
     
  6. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    The rear toe is parallel, the guys that aligned my car had a right chew on getting it parallel like. Rear camber is 0.5.
    However.... I've got Eibach anti roll bars which are 26mm front and 24mm rear. I don't understand anti roll bars, I got them as the collars on the standard ones were broken and I have a mate that can get Eibach stuff cheap from a friends garage.

    Its olso on eibach springs.... too soft for track and maybe contributing too?
    Could these promote the back end being livley?

    Yep! I got the DS 2500 with the LCR Brembos so havent paid nothing for them, so thought I may as well use them. But Prawns told me a million times they are **** and I will notice the difference when I get the DS300 so im excited for that.

    Yeah Ive been trying to turn in early to straighten the car up ready to floor it through and out the corner. I love how the haldex catapults you out no dramas and all the power being put down :)

    Coilover wise I think il be taking the advice of the ASN Stig Prawn and its going to have to be a go big or go home situation!
     
  7. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    image.png image.png image.jpeg
     
  8. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    Another one bites the dust.
    Ginger rage level 10.
    Hopefully get a new one under warranty, but this has lasted a mapping session, a trip to the ring, Croft and then Knockhill.
    I can't be changing exhaust manifolds every 6 months.

    Apparently a new one on the way from beach buggy turbos ? Undergoing testing at the moment


    Im absolutely sick.
     
  9. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    This is one of the reasons I jumped at the chance to test out the 064 stuff 3 years ago. There really is no decent option, aside from the home ported chinafold or Bills version as part of the 380 package.
     
  10. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    Had a quick chat with Bill about going 064 but its too tight on a S3.

    I'm waiting on replies from @sambryant about getting a new one under warranty.... and go from there

    I just want the car sorted to get back on track, I ****** love this car but it tests you EVERY step of the way.
    At least its a part failure and nothing I've done :)
    It was braced with the turbo bracket, always warmed up and cooled down correctly.

    It is what it is. Onwards and upwards.
     
  11. shaunevo6

    shaunevo6 Active Member

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    Would having these manifolds zircotec coated help at all?? Just wondering if it would stabilise the temperature. It's obviously not cheap to get one coated tho.
     
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  13. VAG-Slag

    VAG-Slag Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhhh man, tell me about it... Glad it's not just me!

    I took my head-lights out to do a "quick job" to neaten up the front end a bit, and even that's been a catastrophic nightmare!... Cars been off the road over 2 months for that "quick job" now :tearsofjoy:

    How many miles you get out the Pro4 out of interest?... If/when my manifold goes, I'll reckon I'll be taking the opportunity to go badger k380. . . . So long as there's no other major issues at the time!!!
     
  14. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    The cars engine was rebuilt with rods etc in Jan 2015. Mapped April (I think) 2015 and we found I had issues on the day. 308bhp.
    Got home, low compression. Head removed and head cracked.
    Head replaced, supertech exhaust valves fitted. Manifold checked and all ok then... but it had literally only been to Badger5 to be mapped and back.

    New head fitted and pro4 refitted Jan 2016. Turbo Hotside ported by Badger5 at the same time.

    Back to Badger5 mapping Feb 2016. 342 bhp - all issues sorted.

    Nurburgring April 2016 - drive Amsterdam to the Ring, 4 laps, throttle body dies on way home so got towed 200 miles accross Germany. Think It literally only did about 300 miles that trip.

    Manifold all ok then.

    Croft trackday 24th June - No issues. Back in the garage and manifold ok.

    Knockhill trackday 29 August - heard a blowing on the way home.
    01 Sept, confirmed head cracked.
     
  15. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    head cracked? you mean v4 relentless?
     
  16. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah sorry ha ha ! Sept 1st confirmed mani cracked
    Head crack was back 2015
     
  17. daz-20vt

    daz-20vt Well-Known Member

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    Big turbo is the only way to go with 1.8t.
    They get too hot and need too much boost.
    Get a decent blower to make up for the lack of engine displacement.

    If you change dont F about!!!!
     
    scotty_24 likes this.
  18. Shoomakan

    Shoomakan Grand Nagus

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    Another owner of a Pro4 that has cracked repeatedly. Came on the car, currently a small fracture, debating still on what to do about it. As DAZ said, either going to go with a bigger, appropriately sized turbo (nothing that requires a major top end rebuild/restructuring) or just replacing it with a proper high flow K04 manifold from Bartek (only vendor I found who'd sell it without making me buy a hybrid along with it).

    Like Daz said, it gets too hot. I've got an FMIC, downpipe, TIP, and the aforementioned V4 along with meth and my exhaust temps still hit over 900c on a hot day after 5-6 minutes of hard abuse. To be fair, I do live in the Middle East, so... Intake temps never go over 35c at WOT so at least I have that. :D
     
  19. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    Yep me and Daz have been through this from day 1 really, exact same set ups near on identical BHP and Torque mapped by the same tuner.

    And his pro4 cracked in the EXACT same place as mine.

    The cars mapped by one of the best in the business so I know the fueling and EGT protection is on point.
    Its got a wellycooler.
    Its got a 82 degree stat.
    Its got dual port WMI.
    Its got a mocal thermostatic oil cooler.

    Short injecting ****** liquid nitrogen there isn't much more I can do to aid cooling.

    Temps on track are fine, 10 lap sessions or so with two laps warm up two laps cool down.


    And it still cracks.

    Some may say that when my car gets used it gets a hard life, true. But I built it to have fun in. And its EXTREMLEY well looked after and the day it goes someone will get one hell of a well looked after S3, which is all documented on here.

    BUT

    I don't want to have to worry about using the damn thing in case the manifold cracks.

    The new pro4 from Sam is on its way. Maybe on the latest ones the issue is resolved?

    For now its in the garage and I'm gonna leave it for a while and weigh up my options and decide what route to take, and see what else becomes available:wink:
     
  20. xDaNx

    xDaNx Member

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    Cracked in the exact same place as mine, mine was a little bit bigger though and went all the way from front to back
     

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  21. xDaNx

    xDaNx Member

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    Found some better pics, knew I had some
     

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  22. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    @xDaNx thats three of us, same crack same place.

    Mines not had time to develop and split completely like that, it was just a blowing noise that alerted me to it on the way back from Scotland and then the crack was found.

    however i believe if i used the car anymore now its cracked, it would open up completley.

    How did you notice ?

    Hopefully relentless use this as a constructive criticism and use the information from its customers to fix the fault

    It obviously flows ok, its just durability.
     
  23. snowy

    snowy Active Member

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    Sorry it the mani at fault, not the turbo

    Your blaming the wrong item of hardware
     
  24. Shoomakan

    Shoomakan Grand Nagus

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    Oh, forgot to mention. Mine is fractured at the same place. That's a lot of us now. I'm no longer interested in Relentless or their products as a result of this, lifetime warranty or not.

    Living in Beirut means just bringing the thing over is going to cost me about $700. Not counting labor. Not counting the labor I've already paid removing and repairing it twice. Not counting shipping my damaged item out if they require it to honor their warranty....

    Truthfully, I wish B5 would sell his without the hybrid. It's my number 1 choice, and happens to be the cheapest option. But since I already have a BBT, it is pointless for me. On the plus side, this means I have a better reason to go with a bigger turbo.... :p

    Looks like we're a party of 3 with this same turbo, setup, and similar numbers... Awesome. :D
     
  25. daz-20vt

    daz-20vt Well-Known Member

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    What does this comment mean?
     
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  26. xDaNx

    xDaNx Member

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    Sounded like a tank :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:
     
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  27. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Why are people so scared of buying a China fold and porting it out themselves?

    Also, have we any material scientists in the house who could comment on the failure of these welds. Relentless need to know why in order to improve.
     
  28. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    Who's blaming the turbo like ?

    Makes 2 of us then lol

    Not scared at all Karl, but watching Facebook posts the Chinafold quality at present is absolutely horrendous, porous, miss shaped, needs bits ground off it left right and centre to get it to fit without fouling anywhere. I think this is why Bill knocked it on the head as a mass thing as their quality went downhill and it was taking him ages to get each one right.
    The ones he does sell now with his kit take hours of tweaking, and then need porting !
    Ive been advised JNL racing are busy porting one at the moment so I'm going to watch the progress on that.
    I just want a manifold that works
     
  29. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Ahhh
    That's fair enough.

    I've not seen many accounts of them and certainly not handled one myself. Just what bill puts out there, and Doug and Marcus in the US have also had good success with them that's all.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  30. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    @superkarl whos Doug and Marcus?

    I would just like to say also that's my take on why Bill stopped mass producing them, when I saw him back in April that was the just of the conversation. And it's backed up by photos on tinterweb of all the bits that need adapting.

    Shame Bills wasn't available when I was doing my build, it was when V2 stopped and relentless pro4 was the only option.

    Maybe if I persuade him enough he will take pity on me and allow me one of his manifolds :tearsofjoy:
     
  31. Jutchops

    Jutchops Member Team Nogaro Blue

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    Second you last post Scotty, I took delivery of the latest cast chinafold in the last two weeks and I'm hearing horror stories from the guy about to do my full rebuild that there are real issues even after porting that are stopping there currently being a decent option. Now I've got no idea if this is a different cast (this is off aliexpress) which differed from the unit that badger 5 has been so successfully using. I can only assume it is because the results or inability to dial in any power at all suggests that the things is of a completely different standard and quality to the ones that have been used to date.

    There's so much effort involved in putting the thing back together that my guy doesn't want to use what I've bought ported or not as the potential inability to achieve any power would mean hours and hours more labour, let alone costs..before then having to find an alternative.
     
  32. daz-20vt

    daz-20vt Well-Known Member

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    All this hassle for a poxy hybrid

    B
    I
    G

    T
    U
    R
    B
    O
    !
    !
    !
     
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  34. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    Clio track car FTW

    Me and my brother have started saving for one Daz ha ha ha !
    I couldn't bring myself to sell the S3 at the moment and he wants to get into trackdays.
    So we're going halfers on one!

    That means big future plans for the S3.... But for now a manifold that doesn't sound like a wet fart that needs a courtesy wipe would be nice !
     
  35. Madmax199

    Madmax199 Member

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    I disagree there! There is a market for big turbo, but there is also a market for stock or small frame turbos. The choise depends on use and budget. Big turbos are not always the answer. I race and compete with my car (audi TT) in all sorts of racing in the US. Because I do sprints, hillclimb, and circuit racing, I need a turbo that can shine in all 3 disciplines. A hybrid is the best option for that. 410 AWHP/365 AWHP (that's 500 BTQ and 450 BHP for you guys) on a safe conservative tune which is more than enough for my 1,130 KG TT. These numbers on my hybrid matches what many "big turbos" make and I don't have to wait for power for days when looking to explode out of a corner. Each job has its tool, turbo selection is not immune to that cliche.

    My setup is more than reliable and has been for years (I know the "but how reliable is it" comment is coming). I also abuse it more than most since I compete regularly at a national level in SCCA racing in the US. I know people love to hate on small turbos and hybrids, but when done properly they are a viable option to bridge the gap between stock and large frame turbos.

    Max
     
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  36. scotty_24

    scotty_24 Well-Known Member

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    I aggre the comment coming out of corners.
    I absolutely love coming out of a corner on track in the right gear and the hybrids right there at 3-4K where you need it smashing you out the corner with a lump or torque, you can feel the push from the haldex.


    But Garrett power in the future .... Possibility
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2016
  37. Madmax199

    Madmax199 Member

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    That's correct Karl! I (Marcus_Aurelius screen name on vortex) have had great success with a self-ported Chinafold (which IMO is the only viable option if longevity is also considered). Mine has been brillant and expect it to be for many, many, many years of abuse. The thing is built like a tank. Steve (aka Spartiati) also runs it in FrankenTurbo F23 powered car, so is Jeff (4ceFed4) in his beast. The 3 of us are competitors and racing buddies, we also have the most recorded hybrid numbers in the US. If that's not a testament of the merit of the ported Chinafold, nothing is.

    Some pic of mine -- modified it to run externally wastegated and even with the molestation it's not phased one bit.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  38. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    I got the gist the biggest issue is the lack of replacement manifold - would a bigger turbo fix that issue?

    I have what I presume is a fake relentless - so didn't bother fitting it after being told it might fall apart, and continued with the standard one albeit fractured. I was also pointed to the cast chinafold on aliexpress but porting a manifold is way out of my simple mechanical knowledge.

    Seems best bet is getting Badger5's 380AET hybrid turbo with attached billet for v2.2 TIP and pre-port matched manifold.
     
  39. snowy

    snowy Active Member

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    So if you put a 'big turbo' on a mani made to relentless/pro4 who/whatever standards its going to be fine ?

    Its about quality of manifold, not size of turbo
     
  40. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    you have few options.

    ported chinafolds do work... BUT, the hybrids are VERY sensitive to their surroundings...
    Not all setups will work. I see it frequently.
    They can work, and sometimes it feels a little bit like the dark arts.... so for bigger powers, larger framed garrett units are far more predictable.
     
  41. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Big turbo is not a solution.

    It's a whole new lot of headaches
     
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  42. Jutchops

    Jutchops Member Team Nogaro Blue

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    I wasn't sure whether the latest example from China was actually a new cast and different to the ones ported previously...my options are under review as we speak. Having already purchased a considerable amount of parts including the hybrid turbo, I'm trying to avoid the larger framed unit for now, will see if I manage to find a solution that doesn't involve more outlay!
     
  43. daz-20vt

    daz-20vt Well-Known Member

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    Snowy i dont get the impression you are bright.
    But i dont get the

    impression you are stupid either.
    So why are yoh acting it in here??

    I say go big turbo

    I dont say
    Go big turbo and make sure you buy a manifold of equal quality to a relentless do i???

    Very odd comments by you recently
     
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