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Injector advice.

S3Alex Apr 22, 2015

  1. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Hi there.

    You guys know everything there is to know about the 8L,and should be able to give me a bit of advice.

    The car is an S3 8P,with a Syvecs ECU,running the S3 direct injectors up to 400bhp,with an extra set of injectors from the 225bhp S3 (06A 906 031 BC) above that.

    The LP fuel rail pressure is a minimum of 4 bar,up to a maximum of 5 bar on average.

    What is the approximate maximum bhp supported by a set of S3 8L injectors,and what would be the best choice for a maximum of a 300-350bhp application,with some headroom?

    The car has topped 600bhp on the current setup,with the port injectors at only around 40% of their maximum duty cycle from what I can remember,so I know there's capacity left,but just need to look ahead a little,for when the exhaust gets sorted out,and we can turn it up a bit.

    Many thanks.
     
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  3. beachbuggy

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    s3 225bhp at 3bar run about 280bhp,

    If you want 300-350 then 550-600cc injectors are ideal on the 8l
     
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  4. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Thank you.

    What flow rate do the stock S3 injectors run?
     
  5. beachbuggy

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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  6. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Brilliant.

    Everything is fine at the moment,as the boost is turned down a bit because the exhaust(a sort of semi-Milltek) is limiting flow at peak power,and both Storm and Syvecs felt it best to cut the power a bit.

    What I need to do is have a custom 90mm system built,(which BCS are interested in doing),and then we can start to go back up on the boost.

    Car is currently running 550bhp @ 1.9bar,and I just want to start thinking ahead for after the exhaust system.

    Are there any top choices of injectors of that capacity?
     
  7. beachbuggy

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    Bosch is the only injector to really use...
     
  8. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Thanks again....I've had a quick look around and found more injectors than I can shake a stick at,all claiming the best of everything.

    Are the Bosch ones EV14 type injectors?
     
  9. beachbuggy

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    Off the top of my head
    550cc 0280158117
    600cc 0280158298

    will need adapators as well to convert to ev1 but they are only like $2 each anyway
     
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  10. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Thanks very much again.

    I like to plan ahead,so I know roughly what I'll need for the next trip to the bank!
     
  11. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    if your injector rail is starting off at 4bar I used to run Bosch 550cc with a 4bar FPR on my old GT30 setup.... will support 400hp on their own like that... nice spray pattern and very linear at low pulse widths...

    I assume the LP fuel rail has a rising rate FPR?

    <tuffty/>
     
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  13. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Thanks <tuffty/>

    OK...the LP rail runs at 5 bar idling,with a peak of nearly 6 bar,and an absolute minimum under full throttle of around 4bar.
    This runs off the stock S3 in-tank pump which is good for around 440bhp before it maxes out,with a boost triggered USP auxiliary pump which cuts in at around 0.5bar boost.

    There are more elegant ways of achieving better LP fuel flow rates,but this does work,and was,at the time,the only viable solution other than a Bosch 044 lift pump and swirl pot system.
    One current possibility is to use the Syvecs to control a TT-RS pump with it's own PWM controller,and until now,there have been problems running the RS pump with S3 hardware,and existing software.

    So I do now have a way of running a technically better pump system.

    That would also get around the only other thing I've encountered which is the current system pulling in a bit of air when the tank is low,and triggering an engine trip mode.
     
  14. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Nothing you have said there has made me want to trade in my 20v for a tfsi lol

    Good luck dude :)

    <tuffty/>
     
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  15. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Cheers as always!

    The reason for coming to you guys is knowing that you've seen,it,done it,and got the t-shirt.

    The TFSi has it's good sides but pushing the envelope is still a bit of a trip into the unknown.
    So far,I'm the only one running a 3582,plus Syvecs,with an 8 injector setup,and feeling a bit like a guinea pig in doing so,albeit one with very good support from both Syvecs and Storm,and advice from you guys,plus my Romanian friends.
     
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  16. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    presume non rising rate regulator on the rail supplying the secondary injectors? Or is it?
     
  17. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    I'm assuming non rising rate,but the ECU looks at lambda and adjusts fuelling to suit as far as I know.
    To be fair,the thing is so far beyond what I'm used to it's like magic.
     
  18. antwan64og

    antwan64og Well-Known Member

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    Follow the return line off the red fuel rail and see what regulator is attached, your rocker cover is nice and shiney!

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    end of rail looks blanked?
    non returning rail, yea?
     
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  20. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Correct...non returning rail.

    Demand fed via the LP rail and PWM controller on the pump.
     
  21. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    The lambda is all within safe limits even at full throttle,so Storm and Syvecs seem to have sorted the current injectors on the LP rail,but longer term,it would make sense for us to switch to a TT-RS pump alone,as that will cope with fuelling to 700bhp on it's own,and can run purely off it's PWM controller,whereas my current system uses the boost triggered auxiliary system on top of the stock pump.

    Running a returning system on top of the fuelling for the HPFP would basically require twin pump systems.
    I've looked at making up one from IE's swirl pot systems with Bosch pumps but it would need a lot of integration into the ECU.

    Using the PWM controller via the CAN-BUS seems better and was what Storm and Syvecs were happy with.
     
  22. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    the aux pressure to the second rail LP one is monitored and controlled to a pwn aux pump? That pressures varied or fixed or is the aux pump supplementing the in tank one via a single line to the hpfp and lp rail?
     
  23. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    As far as I can explain,it's as follows....

    The port injector rail is run as a spur of the main LP rail.

    Both therefore are fed by the same fuel system,and that works like this.....the stock in-tank pump runs from it's PWM controller,but is augmented on boost,by an auxiliary in-tank pump,which effectively takes some of the load off the main pump during heavy acceleration,when it would otherwise max out it's duty cycle via the PWM controller.

    We found a while back that the stock pump begins to run out at 440bhp,which is what a lot of others had found as well,and at that time,the only option was to use the USP Motorsports aux pump system.

    Now we could run an RS pump on it's own and still have enough flow.

    I've monitored the LP rail pressures,and you can see the pressure variations as the system adjusts to demands,but the minimum is around 4bar,with a peak of just over 6bar at idle.
    Under load,the average is around 5bar.

    I spoke to Andy at Storm the other day,and we decided that the best solution will be a TT-RS pump,plus an in-tank swirl pot.
     
  24. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    do you know the actual delivery flow in ltr/min of the pumps?
     
  25. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    I don't have all of the data,but I do know the auxiliary pump is a Walbro 255.

    The maximum flow rate on that is 255l/hr which is lower than the Bosch 044( at about 290l/hr dropping to 250l/hr at 7bar),so if i'm right,the aux pump alone could supply a maximum of 4l/min,dropping to around 3l/min at a maximum pressure of 7 bar.

    Again if I'm right 4 x 500cc injectors would equate to 2l/min?
     
  26. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    the output is dependant on volatges, and if pwm controlled thats not going to correlate so well.
    should be plenty as they're auxilliary.

    I run twin 044 on badgerwagen, 8 injectors (2 x 750cc), 3.5bar fuel pressure
     
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  27. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    I understand.

    PWM does make calculations imposible to my brain in any case,but the aux system was originally designed to have plenty of capacity.
    I'd thought of twin 044's plus swirl pot system,as IE make some very nice kits,but that means removing the PWM conroller from the CAN-BUS and then a lot of extra calibration,so I think Storm's plan of a larger capacity PWM pump from the RS would be ideal.
     
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  28. fab_giglio

    fab_giglio Member

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    Hi,

    I don't know if anyone can help me with this but

    I have an Audi A3 2007 1.8T DSG.
    I recently upgraded the turbo to K04, manifold, straight pipe 3" all the way, K&N Cold air intake and intercooler. I also have a Autotech high pressure fuel pump that it has not been installed yet.
    I am looking for a good injector since the stock ones are maxed out.
    My question is which injectors should I buy to go to push to the limit of my engine (stock internals, for now).
    Can anyone advise please?

    Thank you
     
  29. Bluepower

    Bluepower Active Member

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    Next time create a new post, will be easier!
    To answer your question: 2.0TFSI S3 injectors will be sufficient
     
  30. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Wrong section for your car/engine dude... need to ask this in 8P section... 8P 1.8t is a TFSI

    <tuffty/>
     
  31. fab_giglio

    fab_giglio Member

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  32. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Post it in the right section and people will reply
     
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  34. fab_giglio

    fab_giglio Member

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  35. tcg

    tcg Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you bought the wrong A3...it took less than an hour to get a reply from an '8L' bod,that tells me this must be the 'right place' to be.
     
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