Completely on their max? So Ecotune, R-Tech and several other tuners throughout Europe all have over-reading dynos, but the over-hyped Dyno Dynamics are bang on the money? Also, might want to contact APR and tell them they're onto plums with the EA113 GTX2867 kit.
Imola Yellow Audi S3 - APR - TTE420 - Audi Tuner Featured April '16
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Completely on their max? So Ecotune, R-Tech and several other tuners throughout Europe all have over-reading dynos, but the over-hyped Dyno Dynamics are bang on the money? Also, might want to contact APR and tell them they're onto plums with the EA113 GTX2867 kit.
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RIck does have a point about the dyno lottery,and also the claims made by some tuners.
His post also referred to HPFP rail pressure,and obviously if you use a higher rail pressure,up to a point,you will also increase flow through the injector,and in turn allow for power increases.
It does of course place more load on the cam follower and HPFP.
The injectors from Bartek,HGP etc should allow more flow,without moving to complex 8 injector systems,at least until 460-500bhp region,but I think he may have got the wrong end of the stick over needing an aftermarket ECU to run more power.
Clearly you don't,but you do need one for certain applications and facilities that the stock ECU and tuners may be unable to provide.
His post also referred to HPFP rail pressure,and obviously if you use a higher rail pressure,up to a point,you will also increase flow through the injector,and in turn allow for power increases.
It does of course place more load on the cam follower and HPFP.
The injectors from Bartek,HGP etc should allow more flow,without moving to complex 8 injector systems,at least until 460-500bhp region,but I think he may have got the wrong end of the stick over needing an aftermarket ECU to run more power.
Clearly you don't,but you do need one for certain applications and facilities that the stock ECU and tuners may be unable to provide.
Dt_racing
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Thanks Rick, pricey but I may well go for this, you dont want to do some more 'research' on your dyno do you once I have these? Haha
Sorry Dan-jnr, Realised I took your thread off on a tangent. I'll be quiet now and take my discussion with Rick offline. Keep up the good work enjoying the thread very much
Unfortunately yes, there are a lot of over reading Dyno's out there. They are fine for use as a tuning tool, there is no issue there, but comparisons become difficult. I write files for a lot of tuners in Europe, as well as working with different dyno's in the UK so have a fair amount of experience as to how they read differently. My preffered are Dyno Dynamics, Superflow, and Maha (Wheel power only on Maha - transmission losses are excessive) for accuracy. I quite like the Dastek and Cartec dyno's for how they work but they read higher than the others, and the Dastek struggles for traction.
GTX2867 is not a good idea with std S3 injectors unless you want to run it really lean.... The EA113 engines used by the Seat's in the BTCC were built round the corner from myself. They used very wild camshafts, ported cylinder heads, and fully uprated valve gear. The turbo was a homoligated GT30 based turbo used by every car at the time. This engine produced 406bhp at lambda 0.95 at 0.8 bar of boost. This is on a certified engine dyno, so no rolling road uncertainties. This was the absolute limit of the fuel available, and were able to run this lean in a race environment due to such a large turbo running low boost giving low EGT's that the uprated valves and pistons could handle. This was at 130bar rail pressure as after that they had reliability issues at the sustained 7k+ RPM they ran.
A good indicator on the Dyno is to see what the car makes as standard. E.g. I've had loads of new Golf R's and S3's and they all make 292-297 bhp - book figure is 296bhp One of my dealers in Dubai runs them on a local dyno and they make 313-316bhp stock and 380 on my Stage 1. No way are they 380bhp. I usually see high 350's to low 360's on my Dyno which tallies up with the engine air and fuel flow etc...
Rick
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Dynos as you say,are such a lottery.
I think using the same one can be useful as a trend tool,if nothing else,and that's been much the way I've gone with them over the years.
It tells you things,but they may not be strictly accurate,and certain tuners will use the most optimistic values to base their claims on.
We never saw more than 360bhp on mine at Stg2+,and from past experience,that figure "felt" about right,so I was reasonably sure the dyno being used was reasonably correct.
I think using the same one can be useful as a trend tool,if nothing else,and that's been much the way I've gone with them over the years.
It tells you things,but they may not be strictly accurate,and certain tuners will use the most optimistic values to base their claims on.
We never saw more than 360bhp on mine at Stg2+,and from past experience,that figure "felt" about right,so I was reasonably sure the dyno being used was reasonably correct.
I wonder which hyper-inflated dyno Audi used when they rated the RS4 at 420BHP or whatever they claimed it to be. I don't think I've ever seen a graph of one make more than 400BHP from factory lol.
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Who cares what figure any car makes as long as it makes you smile when you put your foot down.
Make your changes, take it to someone like Rick, leave grinning like a Cheshire Cat.
Make your changes, take it to someone like Rick, leave grinning like a Cheshire Cat.
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I think this is a pretty recent product,and I certainly don't know of anyone using one.
What you will notice is the power levels are very conservative,i.e. 300-350 for the Stg1 turbo,which is some way short of what most of us got from unmodified turbos.
Owen are generally very conservative with their figures,but they are genuine,and these are the people who make the turbos for the BTCC amongst other series,so you'll get a good product.
If you have any questions about it,the person to ask would be Scott Hawkins at OD,as he was very helpful in speccing the M-Spec GTX3582 I have.
Yeah I'm still on standard turbo and running superchips which arnt an aggressive map as u no and they say I should be running 337 , no price listed for there stage 2 (high maybe) so maybe that is a factor as to why people Tte420
Dan-Jnr
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Dan - if you are about I will give you a free Dyno run as a comparison and check it's running safely - all in the name of research
Rick
Sure, you name a day, I'll be interested to add to research too this is the whole reason i am getting dyno runs in at each stage to help everyone else when it comes to going TTE420, as there are so many mapping options.
I also have plans to go further with this setup as mentioned when we spoke on the phone. I already have the RS4 injectors and got a LPFP solution to go in, but in the name of research I'd like to get dynos now, with RS4 injectors @ Revo 3, then get those BarTek injectors and go custom mapped with yourself.
Going to order a set of these in the New Year and get you to custom map, but I also need a WMI setup.
I don't mind, it all helps with the research and discussion of the TTE420, especially kept in one place so easy to read and keep up to date.
Dan-Jnr
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Owens build a lot of turbos for WRC and BTCC teams and also built the GTX3076 and 3582s that I have.
Their reputation is excellent but I can't say what sort of flow this hybrid would produce and they generally rate their products very conservatively.
Yeah just curious if anyone had one fitted and had it on a dyno maybe I'll be the test subject lol
Dan-Jnr
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Bit of a big update since last time.
Firstly sold my MY09 mirrors and upgraded to the correct shape for my year but now with electric folding which comes in handy when parking my garage.
I took the opportuniny to replace the mirror switch for a aluminium one from the S1.
Had an MOT (all passed) and service and one highlighted issue was my timing chain was noisey, so had that done as I've heard horror stories of them jumping a cog at high rev's when the tensioners fails.
This causes major engine damage due as its part of the timing gear. Whilst the timing chain was done had the sump removed and cleaned. The garage found the remains of my tensioner in there.
In preparation for Revo stage 3 I wanted to carbon clean the inlet valves and install the RS4 injectors which is another 4-5 hour job.
I start the laborious job of removing the inlet manifold which consists of removing the following:
Engine under tray
Engine cover
Air filter, intake pipe, and bracket
Throttle body intake pipe and intercooler pipe
Throttle body
Dip stick
Inlet manifold and about 10 bolts that hold it to the head
Once all that is removed access to the injectors and inlet valves is ready.
The inlet valves were coked up quite bad, some big chunks on the valves considering i did about 15k miles ago.
To remove the carbon deposit I blasted them with walnut shells with a media blaster.
This is the same process BMW and Audi use but they have a specially made adapter that covers the inlet port, I had to make my own.
It worked but it got a bit messy.
After cleaning the valves, installing the RS4 injectors, and putting everything back together my car was ready for the next day.
I was booked in at Riverside Racing 9am Tuesday morning, drove over there and let them get to work with installing uprated intank DW65v pump, upgrading the map to Revo 3 and fine tuning it
After a couple of hours hearing my car run on the dyno they came about and said I have a boost leak and it was due to a missing seal on the turbo outlet pipe.
They said I would need to order one or use the one from my old OEM pipe. The car made 380bhp with boost leaks.
I headed home had a brew then found my old turbo pipes in the attic and low and behold the seal was still on there.
I was kicking myself as there were no instruction to re-use this seal. I cleaned it up and installed the seal on the turbo outlet pipe in Formula 1 pit stop time.
My friend Dave didn’t believe how fast I did it. Anyway I rang up RSR and they said if I get back to 4pm they will do the rest of the tuning.
I got back there at 3.55pm and got the car back on the dyno. After an hour of hearing the dyno again they got me to come over and show me another boost leak.
I was like WTF these are brand new pipes, the leak was coming from the CTS throttle pipe where the MAP sensor is plugged in. I said I can’t believe it, I went with new pipes so there wouldn’t be any problems.
They told me to replace it or put the OEM back on and come back at the weekend.
I headed home again a bit miffed at the problems I had been having. Went to gym then came home and fitted the OEM throttle pipe.
The next morning I rang up RSR and asked if I could come that day as I was busy at the weekend. They said sure come down to 2.30pm.
They put the car on the dyno and started fine tuning it again, after an hour they came out and said they most its making is 395bhp.
Its making the right boost but not holding it. Its either the actuator or the Revo software.
I told them it’s the same turbo they had on their Golf Edition 30 that’s making 424 with the same hardware as mine. We came to the conclusion that Revo must have changed something in their map since last year to prevent people using different turbos.
The Revo stage 3 requires the following Garrett 3071R external waste gate turbo kit, along with the other hardware I already have. Since last year they must have changed the software to be less adaptable with other turbo’s as they want you to buy their hardware only.
It’s funny how last year a same engine and hardware spec Golf ED30 made 424 after just a flash of Revo stage 3 software and little tuning. Yet this year with their latest file on a car with the same setup and its struggling to make even 400. RSR think Revo have made changes to the map as they don’t want other cars with different turbo’s making over 400 without their hardware. RSR tried to upload the software from their Golf to mine but the files are locked down to chassis number. The car didn't feel smooth or right. RSR were brilliant in problem solving and couldn't fault their work and professionalism. In the end they refunded me the Revo 3 upgrade and put me back to 2+, meaning I need to put my S3 injectors back in.
Now APR already have their own stage 3 turbo kit just like Revo, but APR have seen the TTE420 turbo is getting a lot of interest and making some good 400+ cars with custom mapping. They started to develop a map for the TTE420 turbo based on their stage 2+ software. This is really good of them as they are adjusting to the market and gaining a lot of new customers especially ones moving over from Revo.
The customer support from Revo has been shocking too, they really don’t want to know unless you use their exact hardware, and not even interested in helping solve a problem.
I asked if they could put a proper rev limit on instead of the EGT limit (which is bad for the engine) and they weren’t interested.
I definitely won’t ever be using them again or recommending them to anyone.
I placed an order for an S3 injector seal kit, new dip stick (they are yellow now), intake manifold seal and some clips. I also placed an order for a 155bar FPRV and runner flap delete (remove the valve flaps too).
Eventually got everything fitted and went down to Awesome and had a meeting with Mark and two of their top technicians and decided to go with APR for their new TTE420 map. Which is booked in for this Monday afternoon.
Firstly sold my MY09 mirrors and upgraded to the correct shape for my year but now with electric folding which comes in handy when parking my garage.
I took the opportuniny to replace the mirror switch for a aluminium one from the S1.
Had an MOT (all passed) and service and one highlighted issue was my timing chain was noisey, so had that done as I've heard horror stories of them jumping a cog at high rev's when the tensioners fails.
This causes major engine damage due as its part of the timing gear. Whilst the timing chain was done had the sump removed and cleaned. The garage found the remains of my tensioner in there.
In preparation for Revo stage 3 I wanted to carbon clean the inlet valves and install the RS4 injectors which is another 4-5 hour job.
I start the laborious job of removing the inlet manifold which consists of removing the following:
Engine under tray
Engine cover
Air filter, intake pipe, and bracket
Throttle body intake pipe and intercooler pipe
Throttle body
Dip stick
Inlet manifold and about 10 bolts that hold it to the head
Once all that is removed access to the injectors and inlet valves is ready.
The inlet valves were coked up quite bad, some big chunks on the valves considering i did about 15k miles ago.
To remove the carbon deposit I blasted them with walnut shells with a media blaster.
This is the same process BMW and Audi use but they have a specially made adapter that covers the inlet port, I had to make my own.
It worked but it got a bit messy.
After cleaning the valves, installing the RS4 injectors, and putting everything back together my car was ready for the next day.
I was booked in at Riverside Racing 9am Tuesday morning, drove over there and let them get to work with installing uprated intank DW65v pump, upgrading the map to Revo 3 and fine tuning it
After a couple of hours hearing my car run on the dyno they came about and said I have a boost leak and it was due to a missing seal on the turbo outlet pipe.
They said I would need to order one or use the one from my old OEM pipe. The car made 380bhp with boost leaks.
I headed home had a brew then found my old turbo pipes in the attic and low and behold the seal was still on there.
I was kicking myself as there were no instruction to re-use this seal. I cleaned it up and installed the seal on the turbo outlet pipe in Formula 1 pit stop time.
My friend Dave didn’t believe how fast I did it. Anyway I rang up RSR and they said if I get back to 4pm they will do the rest of the tuning.
I got back there at 3.55pm and got the car back on the dyno. After an hour of hearing the dyno again they got me to come over and show me another boost leak.
I was like WTF these are brand new pipes, the leak was coming from the CTS throttle pipe where the MAP sensor is plugged in. I said I can’t believe it, I went with new pipes so there wouldn’t be any problems.
They told me to replace it or put the OEM back on and come back at the weekend.
I headed home again a bit miffed at the problems I had been having. Went to gym then came home and fitted the OEM throttle pipe.
The next morning I rang up RSR and asked if I could come that day as I was busy at the weekend. They said sure come down to 2.30pm.
They put the car on the dyno and started fine tuning it again, after an hour they came out and said they most its making is 395bhp.
Its making the right boost but not holding it. Its either the actuator or the Revo software.
I told them it’s the same turbo they had on their Golf Edition 30 that’s making 424 with the same hardware as mine. We came to the conclusion that Revo must have changed something in their map since last year to prevent people using different turbos.
The Revo stage 3 requires the following Garrett 3071R external waste gate turbo kit, along with the other hardware I already have. Since last year they must have changed the software to be less adaptable with other turbo’s as they want you to buy their hardware only.
It’s funny how last year a same engine and hardware spec Golf ED30 made 424 after just a flash of Revo stage 3 software and little tuning. Yet this year with their latest file on a car with the same setup and its struggling to make even 400. RSR think Revo have made changes to the map as they don’t want other cars with different turbo’s making over 400 without their hardware. RSR tried to upload the software from their Golf to mine but the files are locked down to chassis number. The car didn't feel smooth or right. RSR were brilliant in problem solving and couldn't fault their work and professionalism. In the end they refunded me the Revo 3 upgrade and put me back to 2+, meaning I need to put my S3 injectors back in.
Now APR already have their own stage 3 turbo kit just like Revo, but APR have seen the TTE420 turbo is getting a lot of interest and making some good 400+ cars with custom mapping. They started to develop a map for the TTE420 turbo based on their stage 2+ software. This is really good of them as they are adjusting to the market and gaining a lot of new customers especially ones moving over from Revo.
The customer support from Revo has been shocking too, they really don’t want to know unless you use their exact hardware, and not even interested in helping solve a problem.
I asked if they could put a proper rev limit on instead of the EGT limit (which is bad for the engine) and they weren’t interested.
I definitely won’t ever be using them again or recommending them to anyone.
I placed an order for an S3 injector seal kit, new dip stick (they are yellow now), intake manifold seal and some clips. I also placed an order for a 155bar FPRV and runner flap delete (remove the valve flaps too).
Eventually got everything fitted and went down to Awesome and had a meeting with Mark and two of their top technicians and decided to go with APR for their new TTE420 map. Which is booked in for this Monday afternoon.
Last edited:
Sorry, you're going to need to explain why how one outfit struggling with over 130bar means that the rest of the world does. 130bar on anything above a stock K04 is not going to give the fuel you need. I've seen a good few APR stage 3 cars and they run 0.82 all day long. They don't struggle with >130bar rail pressures nor do they only make 406 horse power.
swatchuk
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Can't believe you have those boost leaks. I've just fitted both my cts throttle and discharge pipes and this doesn't fill me with confidence. Can we not put some gasket sealant around where the map sensor is? Putting mine on the dyno next week, fingers crossed no boost leaks
Dan-Jnr
Registered User
Yeah the inlet valve clean is messy.
I sourced the RFD from Creation Motorsport on eBay.
Dan-Jnr
Registered User
Make sure you rescue the green seal from the discharge side intercooler pipe if your replacing that too. If your using the stock intercooler pipe you'll be OK.
My throttle pipe had a fault in the MAP sensor bolt holes, the left hand bolt hole had a tiny hole that goes in to main body of the pipe, CTS are replacing it, but for now it's sealed with gasket sealant. Other than that they are good products for their price.
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FWIW,Dan,there are some rumblings from the 8V guys that APR are no longer so keen to support the TTE hybrids with the newest maps as well.
There is a lot potentially for either Revo or APR to lose in terms of diverting sales from their own kits,and this may be the answer.
Also,you know why I moved away from the software I was running to Syvecs.....I had waited and waited,and asked many times for updates to the Stg3 and 4 files and got nothing.
There is a lot potentially for either Revo or APR to lose in terms of diverting sales from their own kits,and this may be the answer.
Also,you know why I moved away from the software I was running to Syvecs.....I had waited and waited,and asked many times for updates to the Stg3 and 4 files and got nothing.
Dan-Jnr
Registered User
Awesome have dealt with APR HQ directly to provide a map for my car, this will then be tuned on the dyno during the night when the states are awake. Pretty cool technology wise mapping a car from half way round the world. Will provide updates Monday and Tuesday.
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I can't understand why you aren't getting custom live mapping. You're chasing your tail.
Dan-Jnr
Registered User
I am not chasing my tail, you do not understand my issue.
I did consider custom mapping with MRC but they are too far away. I have also been in contact with Unicorn who was helpful and advised me to get uprated injectors (£900 - £1500) and TTRS pump and controller (£500) and cost of mapping (£650 approx).
If I hadn't of done the Revo 3 route I would have considered Unicorn, but I don't want to have to buy more hardware when APR have a map for my current hardware setup.
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I think sometimes we have to go with what we've got.
The extra costs of moving from one supplier to another can be pretty high,especially when you add in the associated hardware.
I looked at both APR and Revo when we were trying to get things moving on both power and mapping,and neither were willing to help.
Rick was very helpful for advice,but at a very similar time,the Syvecs ECU appeared and I moved onto that platform,at considerable cost,but with the benefit of it being hardware independent....I'm not suggesting it as a cure for all this,but an example of how much it costs to move.
Dan-Jnr
Registered User
So just picked up my car from Awesome, who I tasked with loading the APR TTE420 map.
Firstly they did a health check and before dyno run to get figures the Revo 2+ outputs with TTE420 (shown in red), then loaded the APR TTE420 map and did some tweaking and dyno'ed (shown in blue). The Revo 2+ is just not suited with the TTE420, the difference is night and day, I have provided both dyno graph corrections DIN and SAE, for those interested.
Extremely happy with the service I received and the car well lets just say its ridiculously fast, and the motorsport rev limit sounds amazing.
DIN Smoothing - 423 BHP 437 FT/LBS / 592 NM
SAE Smoothing - 411 BHP 425 FT/LBS / 576 NM
Firstly they did a health check and before dyno run to get figures the Revo 2+ outputs with TTE420 (shown in red), then loaded the APR TTE420 map and did some tweaking and dyno'ed (shown in blue). The Revo 2+ is just not suited with the TTE420, the difference is night and day, I have provided both dyno graph corrections DIN and SAE, for those interested.
Extremely happy with the service I received and the car well lets just say its ridiculously fast, and the motorsport rev limit sounds amazing.
DIN Smoothing - 423 BHP 437 FT/LBS / 592 NM
SAE Smoothing - 411 BHP 425 FT/LBS / 576 NM
You
You done your internals ???So just picked up my car from Awesome, who I tasked with loading the APR TTE420 map.
Firstly they did a health check and before dyno run to get figures the Revo 2+ outputs with TTE420 (shown in red), then loaded the APR TTE420 map and did some tweaking and dyno'ed (shown in blue). The Revo 2+ is just not suited with the TTE420, the difference is night and day, I have provided both dyno graph corrections DIN and SAE, for those interested.
Extremely happy with the service I received and the car well lets just say its ridiculously fast, and the motorsport rev limit sounds amazing.
DIN Smoothing - 423 BHP 437 FT/LBS / 592 NM
SAE Smoothing - 411 BHP 425 FT/LBS / 576 NM
Dan-Jnr
Registered User
No, the stock internals are good for 440 but as I am near that limit, it's something I will need to look in to upgrading next.
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Exactly.
Mine worked fine at that level for a couple of years before the engine was rebuilt to take some more.
When it was in bits the crank was checked and found to be within original tolerance after 20k miles at 440lbs.
When the top end was rebuilt at 60k the cams were also in spec.
Dan-Jnr
Registered User
Tarox uprated pads and discs at the moment.
Recently sold RS4 8pot setup as required spacers which pushed wheel out too far.
Researching setups that work with my wheels.
This is my dilemma with the tte420 now pushing the limits of our engine (cdl I think can take more) I'm contemplating if it's worth by passing the tte and going straight for a bigger turbo ,
I have just got uprated disks and pads for mine , Porsche cayenne brakes seem to be very good value for the rear with the creation motor sport brackets and lines etc
I have just got uprated disks and pads for mine , Porsche cayenne brakes seem to be very good value for the rear with the creation motor sport brackets and lines etc
You are doing a great job.. will be following.
have you got any sort or price list to get an idea for what is required to get that sort of figures?
Ive been thinking about an S3 for a while now but i couldnt live with it at standard bhp
have you got any sort or price list to get an idea for what is required to get that sort of figures?
Ive been thinking about an S3 for a while now but i couldnt live with it at standard bhp
