Hybrid to big turbo

scotty_24

Registered User
Hello lads


I'm after a bit advice.
I'm loving my car with its current 342 bhp, I've done the Ring, I've got Croft booked for the 24th and other than a miss fire which turned out (hopefully as I've not done much miles since) to be coil packs missing under load.

My question is, how much more money, how many parts and obviously labour and mapping would it take to go big turbo?

I can think of:
Turbo
Manifold
Downpipe
Injectors
Valve springs?


If I was to do a drive in drive out at Badger5, what am I looking at?

Or

Do I enjoy the car as it is, and in the future buy a S3 8P and go down the route of stage 2 +

Its just a thought, im more than happy. But how much is a hybrid turbo S3 8L worth?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
TIP, downpipe (fabricated), external wastegate, wastegate pipework (fabricated), oil and water lines, supertech valves if you haven't already along with whatever springs you have previously decided to use (cat gold is the cheaper option), modified charge pipe work...

<tuffty/>
 

Prawn

My other car is a MINI!!!!
Basically, every single part you bought for the hybrid conversion, you'll need to buy again. Plus more, and they're pretty much ALL more expensive.

nothing moves across from hybrid to BT.

You are however able to sell on your hybrid stuff to get some of the money back.
 

Shoomakan

Grand Nagus
Hello lads


I'm after a bit advice.
I'm loving my car with its current 342 bhp, I've done the Ring, I've got Croft booked for the 24th and other than a miss fire which turned out (hopefully as I've not done much miles since) to be coil packs missing under load.

My question is, how much more money, how many parts and obviously labour and mapping would it take to go big turbo?

I can think of:
Turbo
Manifold
Downpipe
Injectors
Valve springs?


If I was to do a drive in drive out at Badger5, what am I looking at?

Or

Do I enjoy the car as it is, and in the future buy a S3 8P and go down the route of stage 2 +

Its just a thought, im more than happy. But how much is a hybrid turbo S3 8L worth?

In the same conundrum myself, at the moment. New turbo, manifold, downpipe for sure. If you got big-ish injectors in the first place you might be able to re-use them unless you're shooting for big power. I have 550's and a 4 bar FPR which IIRC is good for ~400 to the wheels. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

What you *could* do *(maybe, as of yet unsure how "bolt on" this really is) is something like this:

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...ode=TP&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-165&Category_Code

They claim it bolts on to a stock downpipe/manifold. If you've got a hybrid, that *may* mean it will bolt on to your current gear. There's a GTX2867 upgrade option at the bottom for an extra $300. $2300 for a 450hp capable turbo isn't a bad thing IMO if it requires only valves to go along with it.

That's the path I'm thinking of. @tuffy I'd be grateful and interested to know your opinion, for my sake as well as the OP's, how viable this is. You've commented to me once before how you'd rather a GT30 with lower boost, but if this really bolts right in (or nearly so), I would be more swayed buying this over a custom GT30 setup.

edit: OP, there's also the TTE390. There's a thread here about it. Supposedly good for nearly 400hp without methanol. And that should bolt right in as far as I know. Expensive for what it is IMO but it is the cheapest route once you factor in everything else you might need for a custom setup.
 
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Shoomakan

Grand Nagus
Badger 5 has a 400bhp hybrid aswel

I know. But if I recall correctly, Badgers' test car had WMI installed on it as well. TTE's test car, IIRC, did not. Badger's test car is also extremely well optimized, ported, polished, and loved. Unsure on the level of finishing details on TTE's test car. Doubtful it is as well optimized as Badger's and yet still made similar power. This indicates that the turbo has higher potential, ultimately...

My point is, one made as much power as the other without methanol, and since he already has a hybrid, didn't think he'd want to go through the trouble for only a 50hp gain...

But, it's worth saying that Badger's unit is MUCH cheaper and I doubt that comes at a hit to its build quality, knowing Badger. It would be my go-to choice if my car was stock. By far. Add to that his contributions and participation on this very forum and it becomes a very good package indeed for stock turbo 1.8T owners.

For people like me and the OP, though, the situation is a bit different. :(
 

superkarl

MAN OF STEEL
In the same conundrum myself, at the moment. New turbo, manifold, downpipe for sure. If you got big-ish injectors in the first place you might be able to re-use them unless you're shooting for big power. I have 550's and a 4 bar FPR which IIRC is good for ~400 to the wheels. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

What you *could* do *(maybe, as of yet unsure how "bolt on" this really is) is something like this:

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...ode=TP&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-165&Category_Code

They claim it bolts on to a stock downpipe/manifold. If you've got a hybrid, that *may* mean it will bolt on to your current gear. There's a GTX2867 upgrade option at the bottom for an extra $300. $2300 for a 450hp capable turbo isn't a bad thing IMO if it requires only valves to go along with it.

That's the path I'm thinking of. @tuffy I'd be grateful and interested to know your opinion, for my sake as well as the OP's, how viable this is. You've commented to me once before how you'd rather a GT30 with lower boost, but if this really bolts right in (or nearly so), I would be more swayed buying this over a custom GT30 setup.

edit: OP, there's also the TTE390. There's a thread here about it. Supposedly good for nearly 400hp without methanol. And that should bolt right in as far as I know. Expensive for what it is IMO but it is the cheapest route once you factor in everything else you might need for a custom setup.
That linked unit will be no better than a hybrid, gtx or not, it should not even be an option
 

Shoomakan

Grand Nagus
That linked unit will be no better than a hybrid, gtx or not, it should not even be an option

I disagree with you, but I see you have one installed. I also see less power on yours than I would have imagined. A quick Google search shows plenty of 1.8T's hitting over 420hp with this turbo. I've seen a couple of local CA18's make 420-430whp with methanol on mostly stock motors.

TTE390's flowrate is about 37lb/hour, if I've converted the liters/second correctly. A GTX2867 flows 47lb/hour. It seems to be a significant improvement over the biggest hybrid at the time.

Can you explain your reasoning, and your low results?
 

superkarl

MAN OF STEEL
I disagree with you, but I see you have one installed. I also see less power on yours than I would have imagined. A quick Google search shows plenty of 1.8T's hitting over 420hp with this turbo. I've seen a couple of local CA18's make 420-430whp with methanol on mostly stock motors.

TTE390's flowrate is about 37lb/hour, if I've converted the liters/second correctly. A GTX2867 flows 47lb/hour. It seems to be a significant improvement over the biggest hybrid at the time.

Can you explain your reasoning, and your low results?

You linked an eliminator, uses the stock configuration, stock manifold set up, stock turbine entry, small scroll.


Just because a compressor wheel has an airflow rating of 40+ pounds does not mean it will flow that. You're ignoring the turbine side and its capabilities. It's a management of pressures on both sides. If the turbine side hits a wall before the compressor is at its 40+lb efficiency, it will not make the power you think it will.

Mine is internal wastegate T25. Mine makes very good power for its configuration, exactly as I and anyone should expect. External wastegate, bigger turbine housing I might expect mine to make the 420-430hp at the fly you're suggesting it should. The 470hp the compressor is rated to is not within the small gt28 turbines capability, not on regular fuel anyway.

Your expectations are skewed by US wheel figures and their magical dynojets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Kits like eliminators etc are a compromise... as a result the figures are a compromise... its a shame the true figures are skewed to drive marketing hype...

SK has pretty much nailed it...

All about the flow... :)

<tuffty/>
 

Shoomakan

Grand Nagus
Well yeah, if the eliminator won't mount to an aftermarket 3" stock fitment downpipe and turbo manifold, you're limiting it for sure. I assumed you'd run it/it would run on the hybrid supporting parts since it is an eliminator.

Local dynos are not American magical dyno jets, and most of said 1.8T's are European. But I see your point. Thanks for the info.
 

Gops

Badger 5 Edition
VCDS Map User
Buying an 8P for a further 10-20hp over your 8L in my opinion isn't really logic. Then again neither is buying an M135i hahah.

Cost of big turbo is what you can afford. You can spend big money and go all out which may just yield the 600+ if nature allows it. Or stick to a budget and get a realistic goal. Bill makes 2-3 BT cars a year which means lots of work goes into these cars as does time. Don't think the engine is everything though because your brakes, suspension, gearbox will also need revising if your doing it properly. It's not a straight forward decision, think on it, speak to those who've done it and get some real advice. I'm lucky I had tuffty, bill and even goubo when my car was being built.
 

Gops

Badger 5 Edition
VCDS Map User
Also to add, bills lupo engine wasnt ported or polished, was a bog standard aum with rods. Supporting mods helped of course.
 

scotty_24

Registered User
I like the Idea of a stage 2+ 8P just because its a standard car with bolt on mods, and reliable power. Not wringing the nuts off a hybrid.
Dont get me wrong I love my car, I love its power, I love that there are so many knowledgeable people on hand to help if sh1t hits the fan.

It breaks, I fix it. Its an old 14 year old car. It is what it is.

Bigger turbo come with more unreliability? Up for debate. Do it cheap do it twice is my philosophy.

If i was ever going to do it, I would take it to Bill for him to do, no questions asked.
I really dont know if Im just complacent with the car and being greedy, I dont know if I want a new daily thats also quick like a 8P, or carry on driving a banger passat as a daily as I am, and chucking spare money into the 8L and keep enjoying it.

Its only been finished since feb, I've got Croft on 24th, I'm enjoying it. Its just a niggle in the back of my mind.
 

Gops

Badger 5 Edition
VCDS Map User
8P's don't appeal at all. Having to service cam followers more than your spark plugs!? You already have a car that's built for that power. Imo you'll be downgrading engine wise for a few more hp. Big turbo will just wipe the floor with everyone. I've not lost once in my S3. Even against those avetadors and hurracan's in London. Literally nothing comes close unless your talking stupid power in which you just respect
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Bigger turbo come with more unreliability? Up for debate. Do it cheap do it twice is my philosophy.

massively subjective... extracting up to 300hp per ltr is always going to come with caveats...

When tuning to this level the best you can do is mitigate the inevitable especially considering its use... stuff will and does break, you make it as strong as it can be and it will last longer and give you better performance over its lifetime but lifetimes are always reduced at this level of modification so just be prepared for it...

That said... build things right and over engineer where practical and all should hold together barring things like changing from third to second at nearly 8000 rpm... as that generally doesn't end well lol

<tuffty/>
 

scotty_24

Registered User
Excatly. Do the best you can to avoid problems, and it is what it is, things will and do break. Part of owning a car.
Ha ha yes I remember when you had the "wrong gear at 8k rpm " problem..... ouch!

I dont know whats best. Live with what I have, dont get me wrong its a hybrid turbo S3..... no slouch. Sell it ( no idea what its worth?) and go for something newer? Or save up and go BT and have a weapon...
 

superkarl

MAN OF STEEL
In my opinion a big turbo car is no more pushing components than a stock turbo car, 8l or 8p at stage 2-3. It's all relative.

Standard cars are engineered with a safety factor that is certainly pushed when tuning them. Same with big turbo cars, you uprate everything to take the abuse, but at the end of it all, you want all the power and torque it can deliver.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Excatly. Do the best you can to avoid problems, and it is what it is, things will and do break. Part of owning a car.
Ha ha yes I remember when you had the "wrong gear at 8k rpm " problem..... ouch!

I dont know whats best. Live with what I have, dont get me wrong its a hybrid turbo S3..... no slouch. Sell it ( no idea what its worth?) and go for something newer? Or save up and go BT and have a weapon...


...or buy mine ;) lol

<tuffty/>
 

dusty

Registered User
8P's don't appeal at all. Having to service cam followers more than your spark plugs!? You already have a car that's built for that power. Imo you'll be downgrading engine wise for a few more hp. Big turbo will just wipe the floor with everyone. I've not lost once in my S3. Even against those avetadors and hurracan's in London. Literally nothing comes close unless your talking stupid power in which you just respect

I bet the aventador drivers are gobsmacked when you fly past them like they are stood still in a 15 year old s3
 

badger5

www.badger5.co.uk
Site Sponsor
I know. But if I recall correctly, Badgers' test car had WMI installed on it as well. TTE's test car, IIRC, did not. Badger's test car is also extremely well optimized, ported, polished, and loved. Unsure on the level of finishing details on TTE's test car. Doubtful it is as well optimized as Badger's and yet still made similar power. This indicates that the turbo has higher potential, ultimately...

My point is, one made as much power as the other without methanol, and since he already has a hybrid, didn't think he'd want to go through the trouble for only a 50hp gain...

But, it's worth saying that Badger's unit is MUCH cheaper and I doubt that comes at a hit to its build quality, knowing Badger. It would be my go-to choice if my car was stock. By far. Add to that his contributions and participation on this very forum and it becomes a very good package indeed for stock turbo 1.8T owners.

For people like me and the OP, though, the situation is a bit different. :(
Not seen any k04-023 based unit remotely close to the K04-380 the lupos running now. You are comparing apples and pears with TTE390 (which was a TTE420 in reality anyhow).... those units are K04-064... Significantly bigger units and only a k04 in terms of the firast 3 letters being the same - lol

If you get the mix of parts right, and the lupo has always been in the sweet spot, but it should be its extremely well optimised, and other than it being a bog stock AUM engine, with rods, its only internal performance engine mod is an n/a inlet cam, it make superb power and torque. On several other dynos not just mine. Build them right they will work, but hybrids are fussy as **** things and to get best results all the ducks need to be in a row. Bigger turbos are'nt as sensitive to their environment.
 

badger5

www.badger5.co.uk
Site Sponsor
In the same conundrum myself, at the moment. New turbo, manifold, downpipe for sure. If you got big-ish injectors in the first place you might be able to re-use them unless you're shooting for big power. I have 550's and a 4 bar FPR which IIRC is good for ~400 to the wheels. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

What you *could* do *(maybe, as of yet unsure how "bolt on" this really is) is something like this:

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...ode=TP&Product_Code=ATP-VVW-165&Category_Code

They claim it bolts on to a stock downpipe/manifold. If you've got a hybrid, that *may* mean it will bolt on to your current gear. There's a GTX2867 upgrade option at the bottom for an extra $300. $2300 for a 450hp capable turbo isn't a bad thing IMO if it requires only valves to go along with it.

That's the path I'm thinking of. @tuffy I'd be grateful and interested to know your opinion, for my sake as well as the OP's, how viable this is. You've commented to me once before how you'd rather a GT30 with lower boost, but if this really bolts right in (or nearly so), I would be more swayed buying this over a custom GT30 setup.

edit: OP, there's also the TTE390. There's a thread here about it. Supposedly good for nearly 400hp without methanol. And that should bolt right in as far as I know. Expensive for what it is IMO but it is the cheapest route once you factor in everything else you might need for a custom setup.
eliminators.. horrible things
want a garret buy a proper garret based setup imho.. not one which tries to fit where a k04 would. Hybrids kick an eliminators **** in every respect
 

badger5

www.badger5.co.uk
Site Sponsor
I disagree with you, but I see you have one installed. I also see less power on yours than I would have imagined. A quick Google search shows plenty of 1.8T's hitting over 420hp with this turbo. I've seen a couple of local CA18's make 420-430whp with methanol on mostly stock motors.

TTE390's flowrate is about 37lb/hour, if I've converted the liters/second correctly. A GTX2867 flows 47lb/hour. It seems to be a significant improvement over the biggest hybrid at the time.

Can you explain your reasoning, and your low results?
GTX2867 and 450bhp claims is utter BS on 1.8t engines.. Reality is they're high 300's low 400's working very hard (and hot)
It takes more than reading a peak figure on a comrpessor map to realise it into power on an engine.
May folks have gone this route and found out themselves the hype exceeded reality.

"plenty" of 1.8t hitting this number would be on dynojets in the USA.. so huge pinch of salt on those figures.. they're always "happy high"
 

scotty_24

Registered User
...or buy mine ;) lol

<tuffty/>

If only !

Not seen any k04-023 based unit remotely close to the K04-380 the lupos running now. You are comparing apples and pears with TTE390 (which was a TTE420 in reality anyhow).... those units are K04-064... Significantly bigger units and only a k04 in terms of the firast 3 letters being the same - lol

If you get the mix of parts right, and the lupo has always been in the sweet spot, but it should be its extremely well optimised, and other than it being a bog stock AUM engine, with rods, its only internal performance engine mod is an n/a inlet cam, it make superb power and torque. On several other dynos not just mine. Build them right they will work, but hybrids are fussy as **** things and to get best results all the ducks need to be in a row. Bigger turbos are'nt as sensitive to their environment.


Exactly, all the ducks need to be in a row. But ive done it, and the results of 342 bhp and 315 Badger torques show it. The K41T is a 330bhp turbo, and its done exactly that and a little more on my car.

The thing in my head is, do I enjoy it for what it is? Its GREAT fun and scares many cars on the road, at the end of the day a mid 300's hatchback with haldex is a quick car (although its heavy)

If I was go go big turbo, the most important thing, the engine, is sweet now. Its had its fair share of problems that Bill knows about as he's helped me every step of the way.

Decisions decisions.
In the meantime, one week untill croft and I plan to enjoy it.....and not break anything
 

snowy

Registered User
eliminators

From a certain viewpoint eliminators kits do exactly as named

1) eliminate your money

2) eliminate your engine

3) eliminate your desire to ever tune a car again

Thought such garbage was done and dusted with years ago tbh
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
From a certain viewpoint eliminators kits do exactly as named

1) eliminate your money

2) eliminate your engine

3) eliminate your desire to ever tune a car again

Thought such garbage was done and dusted with years ago tbh

Sadly while there is still a market (however delusional it may be) there will be a product to fulfil it...

<tuffty/>
 
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