Hold the front page on DUMP VALVES

i wanted a dump valve before i could drive lol from the age of about hmmm 13yrs.... now i got it and the ability to sort out any running problemsthat may occur. however its just that when you said someone told you that it could cause a piston to melt it slightly annoyed me. he oesnt know what he is talking about.

what type of engineer are you,MECHANIC?

The way you said it in your post sounded that your car was slightly faulty but no is more faulty, and i believe this is simply not the case.
 
The story so far....

DONT USE A DUMP VALVE BECAUSE...........!!!

1, The MAF wont like it
2, Loss of performance
3, Rich running mixture
4, Lumpy running
5, Boost problems
6, Causes stalling
7, Melts pistons
8, What next ???????

God give me strength /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

i am supprised my car even starts let alone runs lovely and sounds awesome. What ever.
 
This isn't a dig at your stanA3turbo, its your right to be doubtfull i was too, more people then not will tell you a horror story even though they only heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend !!! i took a gamble at my own risk, i put my trust in Foolish3uk and my faith in BailyMotorsport and for me so far it is paying off, i also am waiting for something to go wrong but thats only because of the doubt i had from the begining and i will be the first to hold my hands up and say "yes i have a problem" but for now i dont !
I really hope you sort your revs out soon and get back to normal running stan.
keep us informed.
 
i rang up bailey today and the bloke agreed with me because it has happend before!!

he said the valve is slighty faulty and if i send it back they'll replace it!

but to add to the trouble car overheated, the garage think it is either thermostat or waterpump but cant look at it till tomorrow, hopefully it is under warranty from the garage i bought it from, part from the dump valve might void it, gotta wait till 2mra.

foolish3uk im an electro-mechanical engineer, mainly robots and stuff but i know the fundamentals seems as you asked!

part from that my suspension kit came today and clear indicators but no car to fit them to!
 
i know that dump valves will never make a difference on A3 engines as they are not high power engines.
now if it was heavily modified then it would be an excellent idea to get rid of the excess boost as it would stop turbo stalling.
i do not exspect to gain any power from this mod, just the noise, it was my decision to fit this mod and I ENJOY IT.(to me doesnt matter what others say)
i have checked to tolereances in the ecu measured value blocks, on full throttle all readings are perfectly where they are ment to be, however when dumping i get fuel cut off by the ecu which is required because the excess air is not there to be mixed with the fuel.(THIS IS NOT NOTICABLE AT ALL)
as you said my car may be slower to 100 mile per hour but in this country the speed limit is 70mph.

We should not recommend or discorage the use of dump valves as the decision is down to the owner of the car, for me i am happy and i am also happy to advise others on where and how to fit these units if they are interested, where and when did we recommend these modifications??????

I understand that the car is meant to run with a recirc valve, for the correct mixture of fuel to air. but the pressure has already been boosted by the turbo so any excess pressure would still be used when back on the throttle, please lets bear in mind that these are low pressure turbos and ONLY RUNNING at 1.3-1.4 bar!!

This is quite a good thread! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
foolish3uk said:
as you said my car may be slower to 100 mile per hour but in this country the speed limit is 70mph.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe, well, we can plot the graph to 70mph if you like /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

[ QUOTE ]
foolish3uk said:
I understand that the car is meant to run with a recirc valve, for the correct mixture of fuel to air. but the pressure has already been boosted by the turbo so any excess pressure would still be used when back on the throttle, please lets bear in mind that these are low pressure turbos and ONLY RUNNING at 1.3-1.4 bar!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the pressure drop that would be worrying, rather than a power spike. 1.3-1.4 bar is fairly close to the K03 turbo efficiency limit

[ QUOTE ]
foolish3uk said:
This is quite a good thread! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yup!
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I Have a problem !!!!!!!

Well a little one any way, i noticed yesterday that i was starting to get a strange "dagadaga" pre and post "ptwosh" and this morning on the way to work the "dagadaga" had turned into a "gargle" at post "ptwoosh" ,the car still ran perfectly but i was concerned about this noise that by now could quite obviously be heard through my modified air box.....So i spoke to Bruce at Baily and he said to take off the dump and see if it continued...so tonight i did just that, i put the stock DV back on and used one of the 25mm pipe bungs to close off the dumps position. Noise immediately stopped and the groul of the air box sounded smooth and great again.I am sending the dump back in the morning, Bruce said they will test the unit as it sounds like it is faulty, i will get it back saturday morning and Rich said he will ring me with their results, Rich seems to think that because i have had a brand new turbo fitted recently by Audi that the dump might need a stronger spring, he assured me that a new spring wont damage my turbo it will just help keep the dumps piston seated between boosts which he thinks is the "gargling" noise. I will let you all know how i get on.
Lee.
 
good luck lee hope all goes ok!!

David R the 1.3 - 1.4 bar is what audi say the turbo should be boosting too. (stock) adding a chip can massively increase this. how much by i dont know but when mine is done i'll let you know so you can realy know what the max is that you can get out of the stock turbo!!!
 
Hope you get it sorted leezace. If at first you don't succeed.....

Drew.
 
[ QUOTE ]
David R said:

1.3-1.4 stock is a dreamers figure! If you could go higher you would run out of fuel from the injectors and fuel pump...

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps they are referring to 'absolute' pressures, not pressure referenced to atmospreric, like we tend to?
Audi use Absolute for the ECU reference...but then again, 1.3-1.4 bar absolute isn't much!

I agree though, it's near impossible to have a 1.8T standard turbo sustain 1.3-1.4 bar....and even if it could, the heat produced would be immense.

From expreience, S3 injectors are maxxed out at about 275BHP / 1.3 bar sustained...this is with charge air temperatures of well over 100 after the turbo and the fuel injectors being continually on - the solenoids not having the chance to fully switch off before being switched back on again.
No ideal, I can assure you.
 
Glen,

I was speaking with Grant at the weekend and he said that you have experimented with RS6 N75 valves. How did you get on?

Also, hoe do you sustain such high boost pressure? Sounds like excellent.
 
im noy sustaining anything that is te standard pressures set by Audi technical, i printed out the info off of elsa at work and it clearly states that at full throttle in third gear at 3000 rpm the boost pressure must be at 1.3-1.4 bar,

there are thousands of A3's running around the country all bog standard running at 1.3-1.4 bar.(stock) and they are not sh!tting themselves!!!
 
foolish:

We have clashed over an issue of semantics.

As Ess_Three points out, on the board the most commonly used figure for boost reference is the + Atmosperic boost, rather than absolute...
 
[ QUOTE ]
foolish3uk said:
im noy sustaining anything that is te standard pressures set by Audi technical, i printed out the info off of elsa at work and it clearly states that at full throttle in third gear at 3000 rpm the boost pressure must be at 1.3-1.4 bar,


[/ QUOTE ]

I too am familiar with ELSA, and I'm under the impression all Audi technical documentation refers to Absolute pressures, the same as the ECU does.

Full throttle in 3rd would indeed be at least 0.3-0.4 bar boost = 1.3-1.4 bar absolute. (a little low, I'd say)


[ QUOTE ]

there are thousands of A3's running around the country all bog standard running at 1.3-1.4 bar.(stock) and they are not sh!tting themselves!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, indeed they are not...but if that's only 0.3-0.4 bar boost, they have no reason to [censored] themselves!

By sustained boost, I mean sustained to the rev limit...and a K03 for example cannot sustain 1.3 bar to 600RPM.
A K04 flat out is struggling - and this is with no boost controls on the engine - you simply cannot move enough air to still be able to fill the cylinders with 1.3 bar of boost at 6000RPM with a turbo the size of a tangerine! Not possible.

 
[ QUOTE ]
Ess_Three said:
you simply cannot move enough air to still be able to fill the cylinders with 1.3 bar of boost at 6000RPM with a turbo the size of a tangerine! Not possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed there! The standard turbo is patheticly small! The inlet is about 35mm! compare that to the K04 which is about 50mm. And even then the K04 isnt really capable of shifting enough air to privide decent boost at the redline...for that you need a different turbo like the IHI. My bhp PEAKS at the redline... Torque peaks at 4000rpm,and is sustained (flat as!) until the redline. Basicaally i get to 4000rpm and it shoves you in the seat and holds you there at the same force until the limiter kicks in... This id how it should be.

I'll stop gloating now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif

Cheers

Rich /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Leezace said:
Now what your surgesting David R is the credability of these Manufactures !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all, every business relies on good marketing, I'm sure all their products are excellent, it MAY be that some are not ideal under certain applications.
 

I agree, but they state their BOV work to our application, I was confused with your statment about them trying to sell them on to people with closed systems, i thought you meant they just say they work in theory and hope we will buy them and not notice any faults.
My appologies.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Well here i am back to square one...
Got the valve back today , fitted tonight, made doubley sure everythig was Kin-tight and ....no change /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif
This noise from outside the car still sounds like a gurgle and from inside the car still sounds like a knocking or a dagadaga....is it a build up of pressure ?
Does anyone know what a compressor sounds like when it is stalling ? and if this is the prob would i notice a performance drop ?
You see thats whats anoying about this whole thing,,,,block your ears and my car runs faultlessly, no fluctuations, no juddering, no boost loss...nothing.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
So again i have e-mailed BailyMotorSport and i hope for some answers, 3 people that i read about on here all have Bailys valve and all run spot on, the only difference is they all own A3's ! Surely my A4 isn't any different, Baily still recommend the same valve !
I suppose the one good thing to come out of this is, if i get it sorted we know how to eliminate one problem, and if i dont get it sorted then i guess we will have to wait untill another brave soul fits one to their A4 to see if they get the same problem!!
Wish me luck people.
Lee

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
hey lee just had a thought how have you modified your airbox? ahve you put holes in the side? just check the air filter and see if it is soaking wet , may not be this but worth a try,
 
Well stan i am not impressed, all i wanted to hear was a PTSHHH ! NOT a PTSHH dagadagadaga !!!! There is more to this then meets the eye. Why does it work for some and not for others ?
Your car shouldn't cut out stan, i couldn't live with that fault, i would always be waiting for it to happen !
The squeel sounds just like brake dust to me, give them a blow out see if it stops.Some cars use shims in the calipers to stop sticking, maybe the last time your brakes were done one wasn't replaced...assuming Audi use shims that is. Foolish3uk will know !
No dissrespect to anybodies ideas but cleaning throttle bodies, checking pipes and all that wont help my problem because i dont get this noise/fault if i put my stock DV back on !
My problem now is quite simply why doesn't the EVO 26 not perform properly on my A4 !?????????????

I WONT GIVE UP !!!!!!
 
lol i tend to change gear right next to people to get noticed worst thing is i dont notice that im doing it, just get nugged by the girlfriend!!

 
hehehehehe dito

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

I even just let of the gas a bit to here some seep out while crusing down the main street, you dont even have to change gear !!! how sad is that !!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

Hope i dont turn into one of thoses Maxpower nerds, or am i living in denile.
Oh-no i am in denile ! i'm fitting bonnet scoops !!!!!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dancing.gif
 
S#*T !!
I am a Max power nerd, just read back my last post and i used the word "crusing"
Some one help me before its too late, i feel the urge to put a Kenwood sticker in my back window....double S#*T i said stickers, now i will have to buy some door decals......
HHEEEELLLLLPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Lucky t#*t /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
You know what mate i think i am going to try another experiment, Baily dont have any answers for me with this gurgle noise so i am gonig to try one of these GFB hybrid BOV's. I read alot of reviews from America and they are really pro GFB, the valves are quite expensive but they where designed for the VAG engines unlike Baily's or Forge.
I blagged Forge a bit the other day and wrote to them stating i fitted their BOV and i wanted them to explain this gurgle, a guy called Peter repiled and said:-
Yes these BOV's are desigened for MAF sensor engines but NOT the VAG ones because the VAG system doesn't like it.And then he advised me NOT to fit one to my car ? when i questioned him about their web site stating "will work on All turbo cars with MAF air meters" he repiled, "sorry it should say all cars except VAG". I feel baily are a little the same in this respect, if you read their web site they say will work on MAF air sensor cars and then give examples like Escort RS, Fiat Uno etc there is no VAG example.....
I might be reding too much into this but with no support for my problem i have to look for another alternative.
What i dont understand is why yours and a couple of other quys, works ??????
Just for piece of mind can you perform an experiment for me F3uk, when your engines is hot or up to temp,from under the bonnet can you rev it up and see you can here any gurgling from your air box, give it a full throttle to about 4000 and then totaly let off the thottle linkage, After the "Ptwshhh" is when i get the gurgle as the rev drop back down to idle.
This has really done my head in, I am dissapointed in the fact that i cant solve this because the car runs faultlessly and sounds great
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Try and try again.

Cheers
 
ive just tried it and it does not gargle, very confusing. if the DV dont work correctly on VAG car then how come they recomended it to me (bailey) when forge sya it wont work correctly? this is all getting very confusing!

bailey = yes
forge = no

hmmmmm, good luck lee hope all goes ok.at least you wont get any prblems when the scoop is fitted (by having it fitted)
 
Dont get me wrong F3uk, Baily recomended it to me too, i was mearly pointing out that they dont use any VAG cars as an example for their EVO valves.I'm probably getting paronoid ;-) Just as a matter of intrest what air intake system are you using ? standard or induction kit ?
 
Paranoier is setting in again people

Quote from Demon Tweeks site :-

BAILEY
Piston Type Dump Valves

£92.24-£103.99(inc VAT)

About this product

An innovative design which has unlimited boost capability and is rebuildable. Dump valves vent unused turbo boost to atmosphere in between gear changes to help improve acceleration in turbocharged cars. CNC machined from aircraft quality aluminium, and available in 3 versions: Single piston, twin piston and a single piston type that recirculates the vented boost pressure back into the system to be quieter and more discreet. The single piston type is suitable for cars with throttle bodies, carburettors or no airflow meter. Popular examples include: Sierra/Escort Cosworth, Fiesta RST and Renault 5 GT turbo (available in silver, blue or red). The twin piston type is designed for cars fitted with air flow meters before the turbo, and prevents engine stalling. Popular examples include: Escort RST, Impreza, Lancer Evo 5/6 and Fiat Uno/Punto (available in silver, blue, black or red). This is also available with slightly stronger 'D' type spring for some Impreza's. Finally, the single piston recirculating type replaces the standard plastic Bosch valve and is suitable for the following applications: Audi A3/4, S3/S4, TT, Fiat Coupe Saab , Seat Ibiza/Leon and VW Golf Mk4 (available in silver or black).


I know what your all going to say....SO WHAT I HAVE ONE AND IT WORKS !!!!

I'm not denying that but i rang Bailey today to let them know of my noise issues and although they were confused (which to me is a bit strange for a company who does a lot of testing ! but never come up with this before !!! odd) they are offering me a full refund.

Now i have found a little bit of info which might explain this gurgle / flutter noise !

I quote from the GFB site :-

Blow-off valve myth #2: The fluttering sound is usually believed to be the blow-off valve. In reality, it is caused by a blow-off valve, but does not come from the blow-off valve. If the spring pre-load is adjusted too tight, this will cause compressor surge, which as described above is the sound of air exiting the turbo.

Compressor surge: You can think or surge as the point at which the compressor blades begin to “slip” in the air, losing their pumping ability, much like an aircraft wing loses its lift when it stalls. In a turbo, this happens in a series of bursts, as the blades slip, then bite, slip then bite. This sets up a pulsing wave in the turbo piping and explains why the sound has that characteristic “flutter”.

The interesting thing about compressor surge is that it occurs much more readily at low turbo shaft speeds. At these low shaft speeds, on road cars this is generally between 2000 and 3000 RPM, compressor surge is not much of a problem, as the loads generated by the surge are miniscule compared to what the turbo encounters at high boost. However, if surge occurs at high RPM and boost, it is possible to reduce the turbo life and/or damage the compressor.

I think i might be right in being worried !
Do i need a weaker spring then normal ?
Bailey dont know so who do i ask ?

And so on to the next experiment !

A GFB Hybrid

 
God you must really want this whoosh noise! I think I would have given up by now! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
have you tried putting new blanks in the pipes, mine always loosen up even wiv two clips on and air exscapes weare standard valve should be.

apart from that everything is mint, if it would be abit louder it would be nice, people have laughed and asked if ive fitted a whistle cuz it is that quiet.

ive also dropped it 40mm on 18"s now, but this still looks high has any1 dropped there car more than this!

p.s--and people slagged me for saying they didnt work properly at the beginning!!!!
 
hey lee i think i have discovered your problem maybe, block up the holes ou have put in your airbox and try it, when i reftted my intake kit it made funny noises (these were the valves moving) sounded horrible and irregular! have removed the dv only temporialary while i decide if i should sell it and get chipped instead! dv and intake sound good ish but i too have been lauged at because my car looks standard but have the dv fitted. however when these little punks want to race me in their sheite little nova's and fiestas i still plss all over them.
 
audi upgrades
Heheheheh, nice one F3uk

I will tape the holes up because,
Quote from Brett Turner GFB :-

"Hi Lee,
The fluttering noise you describe is most likely to be (without hearing it)
compressor surge, resulting from too much spring pre-load. If you have a pod
air filter or cold air intake, this noise will be more obvious. It should
not be doing any damage to your turbo, provided the noise is only occurring
at low RPM and boost."

I am meeting a friend, from Cardif i have made here on the net, half way down the M1 this Saturday hopfully.He has a GFB HYBRID fitted to his TT and he says its the best thing he ever bought, He has offered to fit it to mine so i will know what to exspect before i buy, He is a sorted dude !
Whats more he has run it for 18 months with no problems !
AND it fits inplace of the OEM DV !!!!

Fingers crossed ;-)
 

Ok Its ON !!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif

I am meeting Mr TTR on Saturday morning half way between Hull and Cardiff, a 200 mile journey each !!!
This guy is really sorted, who else would help out another Audi fanatic like this ? ;-)
I will fit his GFB Hybrid to my car and hopfully then i will get to the bottom of this ****** pre vent gurgle.
Brett from GFB says i shouldn't get that noise with his valve so fingers crossed.
Also i will get to hear how different it vents, so i will post my results Saturday night.

Thanx for reading if anybody out there is still intrested, i know this thread is getting a little stale now.

I just want to be able to say "yes i have a BOV that works" if anyone wants advise !

Right at the begining of this thread i said i would tell you good or bad my results, and i think its a good thing that the EVO 26 didn't work perfectly on my A4 because it has opened up another option for others if the GFB works of course.

Good luck to anyone else willing to try.

Lee.

 
The plot thickens !

Met A well sorted young guy today called "J" some where south of Birmingham, and fitted his GFB Hybrid to my A4.
On his TTR it sounded awesome, just like the Scooby Doo WRX one but on mine even wound right out there was no noise, well very little ,so little infact that the engine dround it out !!!! It seemed my engine didn't produce enough pressure to open it ? Before you ask it was on the right way ;-)
So back on went the EVO 26 and whoosh !!! back to normal with the vent but i still get the gurgle.The odd thing is i have a stronger "D" spring in my valve and yet it opens fine ????????
"J" also gets a gurgle but not to the extreme i do, he has a fancy sealed induction kit, but still he gets compressor flutter which according to Brett (GFB) is prefectly normal at low revs.Its the way the valves are designed being a DV stays open till boost is created and a BOV stays closed untill boost needs to vent the excess.Read the GFB site for a more indeapth explanation.
My only option now it to tape up my modified air box to see if that subdues it.
Rang Bailey and told them of my testing and they are still puzzled, so puzzled that they are sending me there new Ventury Valve, not to say it will eliminate the gurgle but to at least try something else !
I cant fault them for customer service, help or advice.

At the end of the day even with the gurgle my car runs spot on, and for a 7 year old car that still pulls right through the gears and hits 145mph i think i can live with it.After all i only here it at idle.

Maybe AmD will have some ideas when i go next year for a chip.

The Ventury is louder then the 26 so maybe i will go with that, we will see.

Untill then keep whoooshhhing
 
And so for the final experiment !

Couldn't be bothered with sending for the Ventury so i decided to make some more enquiries, i read on some American forums that they run both DV and BOV together !!!!
Since at this stage i had nothing to loose i thought i would try it, so back on went the OEM DV and ON went the Bailey EVO 26 and with a little "T" connector joining both vaccum pipes togther before the inlet manifold there it was, time to start up !

Quess what ? that ****** gurgle has gone !

at low revs and normal driving the car responds and acts just as if only the OEM DV is fitted but if i boot it....Ptshhhh !!!!!!

?????????????????mmmmmmmmmmm

Admitted the whooosh isn't as loud as if i only use the BOV alone but all the same you can really hear it in fact its as loud as my friend "J"s GFB Hybrid !

This seems to have sorted my niggle, so i will monitor the situation and hope nothing changes.

I will update you later.

Lee.
 
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