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Here we go - Hesitation issues

lil_coz Dec 13, 2011

  1. box500

    box500 Member

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    Yep I agree with what you are saying re torque. My S3 has 392nm / 289 ft pounds of torque. Just double checked and the CLK 500 had 302hp + 339 lbs of torque, so there you go :thumbsup:
     
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  3. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    It also has a lot to do with power/weight,and torque and if you have a heavier car,albeit with a bit more more power or torque on paper,the weight ratio may result in it being considerably slower,as any decent Caterham can demonstrate.
     
  4. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    Hopefully there will be more to come. It was actually quite a saga to repro the issue with AmD and nothing was getting logged fault wise. Even with live logging no misfires were detected on my first visit. Eventually it got worse and they identified misfires on cylinders 1 and 3. If it is the same cylinders again I suppose it is less likely to be an airflow issue and more likely to be coil packs or injectors.

    Warren - don't put yourself down, mouth breathing is fine when you have your crayons stuck up your nose. :haha:

    How were you able to prove this - did you actually log data which showed not enough air was being delivered? Did you have more mods than me at the time, i.e. a HPFP as well so the car was actually needing more airflow than in my case? As you can see from my signature I actually have not done that much to the car in terms of performance hardware, only exhaust and air filter.
     
  5. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Now crayons are useful; black ones can sometimes stop the infernal window rattle on the driver door if you rub them round the window seal! :yum:

    I've run a few different types of plug in the 8P2, and all types seemed to suffer some veneering of fuel on the ceramic collar which suggest the combustion suboptimal. I appreciate the red colouring is probably from fuel additives, but the lean burn FSi system obviously doesn't appreciate elevated boost or a change away from OEM mappings.

    [​IMG]

    What seems really odd is after maps are removed, it continues to misfire on some cars which suggests some part of the internals have been compromised during the process of getting to the point of issue. It's intriguing and bizarre.
     
  6. paddy

    paddy Well-Known Member Team Ibis Audi S3 Black Edition DSG

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    Abandoned my attempts at going to Norfolk today..got as far as Stansted, total white out and sub zero, dont fancy that coming back at midnight...150 miles of wasted time.lol
    anyway, just to upset the apple cart
    My first revo map was for an earlier ECU by mistake and that caused the misfire straight away from fitting. after a week the mistake was realised and the correct map was fitted and the misfire went for 2000 miles with the same plugs that were misfiring....So the map can produce a misfire exactly the same as the plugs...
     
  7. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    AMD and Revo datalogged the car both on the RR and the real road....found it was down to airflow and once the intake was sorted,no problems since.
     
  8. Brett Butler

    Brett Butler Member

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    Paddy Really, get some winter tyres, and the old girl will go anywhere, and stop, just not through other cars stuck :(

    Rev version 9 causes a hesitation on S3 2010, even causes a hesitation when the car is put to stock after the revo software is installed, version 10 solved the problem
     
  9. paddy

    paddy Well-Known Member Team Ibis Audi S3 Black Edition DSG

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    this is what i was saying if only you could try a uprated inlet pipe without the after market filter on the end. There really is no reason why high flow should = high noise TBH. someone needs to develop a new larger/smooth bore pipe from the std airbox .
     
  10. paddy

    paddy Well-Known Member Team Ibis Audi S3 Black Edition DSG

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    Brett
    Knowing that they dont bother to grit any more and people still going past at 100mph at -1 in a blizzard on the M11...I just couldn't be bothered mate :) My 3 day old niece will have to wait to meet uncle paddy :)
     
  11. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    I see what you're getting at there,and I think the problem with the OEM thing is that it has a lot of bends,and a not especially free flowing filter area on it.Things like the ITG are much smoother in profile and the filter is pretty large,but one thing I did notice during all of the work on mine is how much quieter it is with a big turbo and suitable intake,now that all of the chirping due to compressor stall on the K04 when lifting off at peak flow has been removed.
     
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  13. lil_coz

    lil_coz Active Member

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    Mine is on a 61 plate. I think Ramos' one is/was '10 onwards too. From what I understand, these problems are only cropping up on the ones from 2010 onwards.

    Like Warren said, it doesn't seem to go away when the car goes back to standard. So it must throw something out of line once the map goes on. I mean touch wood, mine hasn't hesitated at all for a few days now. It's still booked in on Wed at Audi so we'll see if anything was logged with the EML flickered the first time it did it.

    It'll be interesting to see if your car has any probs when you go Stage 1 Warren.
     
  14. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    So my best solution is a big turbo and cold air intake. Hmmmm. Even then I wouldn't be happy as I guess it would be more laggy and you need to get up the revs even more to get the performance - not sure I would like that especially with the gearing being so short.

    Do you have a HPFP + upgraded intercooler as well in order to make the most out of the big turbo? Any changes to engine internals? What kind of torque and power curves do you get - do you have any plots I could see?

    I am thinking rather than spend any more on mods for my motor I should put money to one side and just get something that is fast 'out of the box' in the next 12 - 24 months time...this modding lark really could be bad for my bank balance. Reminds me of when I started getting in to high fidelity home cinema and stereos - I got pretty obsessive and it got pretty expensive.
     
  15. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    +1
     
  16. Kelza

    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator Audi RS3

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    Hi cheese i feel the same way mate , its never ending as i also get carried away ,big turbo including fitting is over 3k like you said u will need uprated intercooler ,bbk, rs4 injectors ,and so on its just keeps going lol , the cheapest rs3 at the moment i,ve seen is 39k so u could wait a while see how the prices come down the same with the ttrs ...
     
  17. paddy

    paddy Well-Known Member Team Ibis Audi S3 Black Edition DSG

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    TTRS is probably the answer but dont think for one minute you will not end up spending the same money on the same things for that. AND you need to be a midget to fit in it :)
    £40k or £39k for a RS3 is AMV8 money and a souped up A3 is never going to give value for money as a £40k car.
    Its always cheaper to buy power than try and add it later, big cars like the AMV8, XKR and V8 mercs etc etc are give away prices now but there is a good reason for that :)
     
    RedDejavu likes this.
  18. Shadowman

    Shadowman Active Member

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    Seen this causing problems for MTM, AMD and Revo remaps, but does it affect SHARK as well, or are they clear for some reason ( or has no-one with the later model had a SHARK remap done ) ?
     
  19. RedDejavu

    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    Nothing will justify 40k for a A3 hatch even with 400bhp+. Thats GT-R money if you could only afford to run one obviously but when you got that sort of cash to spare you certainly can.
     
  20. l6rth

    l6rth Member

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    Mine isn't mapped but I did have estimation issues, audi changed exaust valve spring and it still had the same problem. It turned out to be a faulty plug. Must have cost Audi a small fortune.
     
  21. Rob W8

    Rob W8 Member

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    I have just done a 60 plate and a 61 plate S3. Admittedly via STS units so not personally as they were not far away. But to my knowledge there are no issues. Ben from Shark hasn't had any issues with cars he has done either. The remaps are on offer at the moment through me as well ;)
     
  22. RedDejavu

    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    What is the offer then could you tell me please as I might be interested in very near future to get my car remapped. Thanks!
     
  23. Rob W8

    Rob W8 Member

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  24. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    You need an HPFP at Stg2+,and if you get into Stg3 or above,you need an auxiliary fuel pump as well....!....on mine,as well as the BT kit,the pistons and rods have been uprated,and you would need this at 440lbs(it's torque that kills rods...)
    An uprated intercooler such as the ProAlloy is essential,and currently mine is on about 460bhp and 440lbs,but is in the middle of some extra work which should get it above that,so if I get the figures plotted,I'll post them for you,but this sort of setup doesn't need huge rpm to wake it up,and lag hasn't been an issue either,but cost is worth considering,and I would say you need to set aside at least £5k to get near to this,on top of what you need for Stg2.
    There are a number of cars running this sort of power over at VAGOC.
     
  25. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    I am not sure I want a car with DSG.



    I am a midget (5'4") but the TTRS is not my cup of tea at all. I would be mostly likely to get an M3 (as an aside apparently BMW will be introducing 4WD to the 3-series in the UK in 2013, not sure that will be on the M3 though) or a GT-R if I went for a more powerful car in the future.



    Depends on mileage - I do 10k - 12k a year. I could possibly afford one next year, but not the running costs and I really think I need to buy a new house first - one that actually has a driveway!



    I guess I can't help thinking - if I got further upgrades I could end up adding to the problem as the car is already under too much stress as it is already. What is to say further mods wouldn't exacerbate existing problems.?
     
  26. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    I think it's very much down to individual choice how far you want to go with any engine or car....I can say that I've had no problems with mine,but I know of others who have ruined an engine by not doing things properly,or in the correct order before adding dollops of boost.
    This car has run 440bhp for over a year,and now more,and simply gets better,and a few friends are running nearly 600bhp on theirs.
     
  27. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    Yeah but on the other hand, I have run of the mill and well tested upgrades on a car that has done under 20k miles and I am get intermittent issues...and it is my only car so reliability is important.

    I doubt I will ever go big turbo but a CAI and HPFP are a possibility especially if they could clear up my issues.
     
  28. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Then I think you've made a very sensible decision,as the BT route isn't always an easy one,and simply opening up the airflow on your car,may clear the problem,but also,it may not......without logging it,it's not easy to say what's going on.....Good luck!
     
  29. paddy

    paddy Well-Known Member Team Ibis Audi S3 Black Edition DSG

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    I think what we are seeing here is something that was matter of fact 20 years ago but in these days of plug and play still leaves people baffled. All engines are different. sometimes very different. Its not unusual for a factory fresh engines to differ as much as 10% in power out put. Manufacturers spend a small fortune developing generic parts that are a compromise that allow for variation in stock engine output, the map is a great example. The map has to work at high and low altitude with different air pressures, with poor fuel or in 40c temps or in -20 as well. On top of that it has to allow the engine to pass emition tests and return the absolute best MPG it can at the same time. Air filters have to flow air in a mountain valley in Switzerland or in a sand storm in Saudi and so on. Each part rely s on the varying info or correct operation of the other parts around it in any conditions and that is the compromise the tuners try to over come to get more from the engine. Its fine tuning for the prevailing conditions.
    The idea that small after market tuning houses can then produce generic parts at a fraction of the cost of original parts that simply bolt on and do a better job needs to be qualified because these parts remit is much tighter and therefore need to be matched to the individual engines in order to do their job as their flexibility has been "tuned out" in order to make them more efficient and thus do their job better..
    Is this teaching people to suck eggs ? or even making sense :)
    The plug and play comparison is quite good i think. You can buy an upgrade for your computer, say a new DVD drive. You install it and it works under the generic map but to get the best you need to fine tune it with a new driver. You can get several more upgrades and they work the same. Then you buy a new operating system and suddenly all you up grades need new drivers. All the parts need to fine tuned to each other again to work better than the generic plug and play of the mother board will allow.
    The car is the same and while after market manufacturers like to keep the idea that their products will simply bolt on and do a better job than the original at a fraction of the cost, the truth is you may be lucky but chances are you may not. Rolling roads are not installed at tens of thousands of pounds for the local nova boys to have Saturday morning shoot outs, they are essential to record how, many different add ons are interacting with each other. Back pressures from after-market exhaust working against increased airflow from CAI's and Increased boost placing heavier loads across plugs, burn time in cylinders altered by different advance curves on ignition and a hundred other parameters that need to match in order to get optimum performance from each part.
    To make matters worse people then pick and choose what parts to change rather than sticking to a tried and tested route. So one guy has a cat back non res and the next has a full decat res system..the next has a large bore down pipe as well and all three expect their parts to work out the box and give huge improvements.
    My advice to anyone who wants to go tuning is speak to an expert who really knows their stuff. Follow a well trodden route if finance is not unlimited. Make sure each part has its "driver" installed but dont then forget about it. Reckon on the next part effecting the first part and resetting that again as well and so on. eventually get the whole package set up on a dyno and as S3alex says get data logs for the engine so you can see exactly how each part is interacting with the next.
    Performance parts are made to have much finer parameters to work under. They get performance by focusing their operation/efficiency and thus they do not have the flexibility of generic parts hence the need to fine tune each part to its job.
    As someone who is older and is old school when it comes to engine tuning it makes me a little cross that manufacturers sell these parts as "bolt on power" and even give forecasts of exactly how much you will gain !! which is nonsense in its self !! It also anoyes me how many people there are like Cheese who are left to work it all out by themselves because the after market manufacturers forgot to mention that their parts would need to be professionally set up, maybe many times as more and more parts are added.
    I.m going to shut up now because I doubt anyone will read or believe this and i'm going back to bed.:undwech:
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  30. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral Team Ibis TFSI Owners Group Gold Supporter Audi S3 DSG

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    Hi Paddy....I won't quote you,but I did read it,and I think you're absolutely right.
    A while back,there were misfire issues induced by the downpipe on some cars,then we've had the plugs,the CAI,and now late model cars having problems with certain maps.
    Engines are not identical,and a lot of people use a variety of different parts,and experience problems,where others simply sail along and have none.
     
  31. flying oyster

    flying oyster flying oyster

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    wise words paddy has made me think that i need to look in to my next tuning mod a little more carefully
     
  32. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    Paddy - appreciate your concern for my predicament, but in fairness I have not been left to work it out all by myself, AmD Woking have done a pretty reasonable job and I am now thinking my initial issues with plugs is actually far more complex due to the bad decisions I made at the beginning of my modding adventure.


    There has been a further (potentially expensive) development, please bear with me as I set the scene with a numbered list as an IT professional with slight asperger's might be expected to do:


    (1) ABT remap for £1300 to make sure warranty remained intact (oops!)
    (2) Milltek TBE, performance filter + front and rear ARBs - £2000
    (3) Minor intermittent hesitation at peak torque and in high gears only - my memory is blurred but I think I may have experienced this a couple of times (in a really minor way) between (1) and (2)
    (4) AmD remap for a further £600 to mitigate (3)
    (5) Minor intermittent hesitation at peak torque and in high gears remained
    (6) After logging and diagnosis by AmD no issue could be identified but AmD suppposed it may be the clutch slipping
    (7) After a month, hesitaton and stuttering now started happening more frequently, also in 3rd, and at arbitrary revs
    (8) After logging and diagnosis by AmD spark plugs were changed due to misfires on cylinders 1 and 3
    (9) Minor intermittent hesitation at peak torque and in high gears occured perhaps twice in the first 250 miles after the spark plugs and then never again, until about 2 weeks ago
    (10) After 2,000 miles minor intermittent hesitation at peak torque and at the onset of boost in high gears
    (11) Today, with a passenger to witness them, two very noticeable incidents - both in 4th - engine revs shot up from ~3,000 to 3,500 - 3,600 revs under full boost without the car really accelerating at all


    So - here is my theory...


    I bought the car with 9,000 miles on the clock during which time the car could have been mapped and/or abused. Now bear in mind as per Paddy's point, I have been driving in a variety of conditions from summer now in to winter so the car cannot be expected to behave the same every day especially if it is only a very minor intermittent fault.


    I think the clutch was already compromised when I bought the car and the first map exacerbated this (ABT claim 420Nm for Stage 1). When the exhaust was upgraded and run for a month with what I and AmD later found was an unsuitable map (the exhaust was installed off the back of some miscommunication between ABT, myself and AmD and I don't think any party involved was really to blame) - the logical explanation was this untested setup was causing the issues. I went for a Stage2 AmD map a because:


    (1) I thought it would cure it
    (2) I was seduced by the promise of extra performance, obviously
    (3) I had already become fed up with the service from Bath Audi and they are over 100 miles from me


    This did not cure the problem. At around 16,000 miles the plugs changed after logging some runs in high gears as there were misfires logged - I think it is feasible that this was due to bad plugs and bad running due to the combinaton of exhaust and map. It is possible there is still an underlying issue with coil packs and/or injectors.


    Today I am 99.99% sure that I experienced a slipping clutch. The car is going down to AmD tomorrow for some VCDS diagnostics and logging. If we can replicate the issue without the car logging misfires it is new clutch time (pretty sure it is anyway). Hopefully, it wonlt be new plugs/coil packs/injectors time as well.


    So thoughout my ownership of this car I think that I have actually been experiencing a combination of two issues, both minor, both hard to diagnose and both down to the hardware NOT the software.
     
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  34. paddy

    paddy Well-Known Member Team Ibis Audi S3 Black Edition DSG

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    Cheese
    Revs jumping in 4th under load is classic clutch slip IMHO. Like you i would say 99.9%
     
  35. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Seems that way.

    It took ages (and 3 dealers) to convince them I had clutch slip on my 8P2. They were blaming tyre tread depth affecting Haldex and anything else they could cook up. Eventually Oxford Audi agreed it was clutch slip, but at 11k miles on a 10 month old car they really weren't convinced until they had it off and realised it was worn.

    Only sign was the slightest rev rise at about 4500rpm and the engine revs rose but power didn't go with it. Got worse over time and usually happened whenever you went to overtake!!

    Best of luck getting it sorted, but as it's expensive may be worth paying for 1/2 hour check at an Indy to do some quick data logging just in case.
     
  36. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    Just got back from AmD - repro'd the issue with a lesser severity. No misfires were logged during the test runs so it looks very likely to be the clutch. I have asked for a quote for an uprated clutch (Sachs) + DMF + fitting...

    I will need to make a decision in the next few months. Options are:

    (1) Trade in for a diesel (probably a 330d or 335d) before the clutch issue gets too severe to part ex and stop wasting money on tuning cars
    (2) Buy a new clutch, but accept that I will probably incur further costs and will also want to take advantage of it and go to Stage 2+
    (3) Trade in for car that has Stage 2+ or better performance out the factory (e.g. M3, older 911, RS3) in the next 12 months

    FYI - AmD said that they are seeing much more regular plug changes are required on the 2010+ S3s and Leon K1s...
     
  37. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Makes you wonder what the issue is with these new lumps, Audi obviously think its OK as they've specced it for the new A1 2.0TFSi 252PS Quattro.

    If I am honest, if your car needs a lot of work doing it may be worth part-ex. Mine came up for 2nd clutch and I took the part ex route as brakes, tyres and cambelt were all due.

    335d has to be a very good car, and residuals might have been hit with facelift of 3 series / volumes (5th biggest selling car in UK at present), so may be a good buy. Porsche is only a sensible option if serviced outside main dealer network as their fixed price servicing is a work of fiction.

    Lovely Mica blue RS3 at Bath Audi......
     
  38. paddy

    paddy Well-Known Member Team Ibis Audi S3 Black Edition DSG

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    TBH if Audi costs are killing it for you dont even think about a Porker outside manufacturers warranty full stop. as for buying a stg2+ , what makes you think others will have done better than you. My rule No. 1, never buy someone else's messed about car.!!
    Having come this far with the Audi i cant see the logic of giving up if the problem is just the clutch as that must have been costed in from day one of tuning a S3 unless you have DSG like me :)
     
  39. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    Approved dealer Porche's come with 2 year warranty.

    That is not what I meant. I was thinking that if I need to get a clutch I can then go Stage2+ at little extra outlay. However CAI noise puts me of and so do cam follwer horror stories with the HPFP. The alternative - sell, put the clutch and 2+ upgrade cash with the money from sale and buy a car of S3 Stage 2+ equivalent performance but not a modded car.

    True - my concern is that with the spark plug issues as well at under 20k miles after the clutch will it cost a lot more in the future as there may be other problems. I didn't on the car for the first 9k so it may have been abused :(
     
  40. Kelza

    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator Audi RS3

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    Hi cheese i just spoke to audi sales to change my car so early into deal (8months) i would have to pay about 4k upfront just to get out of contract not even considering new car ,depoist etc , now i,m having similar issues to you but i think the standard clutch is starting to slip just a little under load ,which you can hardly notice on the revs but you can feel it when flooring it , and you do get lag from 0 rev to about 2.5 rpm ,now this could to down to getting it fine tuned ,then changing clutch or doing it all at same time ,once new clutch is bedded in i think you will fall in love again ,i knowits more money but like paddy said to me ,you,ve got this far just tune and then change clutch job done.
     
  41. Kelza

    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator Audi RS3

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    Cheese cam follwer can be done your self or some help from asn members , also the plugs as well 60 all in , i have been in 3 stage2 + car including mine,lol and its breath taking , was going to ask him to slow down lol
     
  42. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    I have looked into it and if I remained on the same size monthly payments and swapped what I have I could get £25k-27k for another car. Since mine has a few mods already and cost £26k when I got it in March changing doesn't make sense.

    The cost of changing the CAM follower is not the problem - the cost of not changing it is...
     
  43. Kelza

    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator Audi RS3

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    Cool what car u looking at?
     

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