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Have you heard the S4/S5 rumour...

LeMans Jan 19, 2019

  1. syed123

    syed123 Registered User

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    I get that the new s4 tdi will be heavier.

    But on paper isn't the 0 60 the same? From what I recall the official time is 4.8 seconds which I remember seeing on the audi configurator a while back and on this link https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/2019/2828630/audi_s4.html

    Now of course I appreciate that this time is quite reserved as most of them are doing 0 60 in at least 4.4 seconds. Whether thats using launch control or just flooring it I don't know.

    So going by that, and an extra 200nm of torque with barely less power, I don't see how the new s4 will be any slower? In fact the real world performance should be stronger with all that extra grunt. (Including the 0 60 time)

    Not trying to get into the petrol vs diesel debate as I know petrol usually outperforms petrol in almost all high speed conclusions but I don't think the diesel should be written off just yet.

    My tuned 272 clearly hasn't got as much as clever tech as the new s4 will and I've recorded 0 60 in 4.4 seconds using LC and just under 5 flooring it. So going by that I can easily see the new s4 doing 0 60 in less time than quoted
     
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  3. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    The technology in the new S4 S5 cars is well tried and tested and has been around for many years now. Most people would probably be very impressed with the instant acceleration from low revs. In every day driving this will probably make for a better driving experience. Combined with the more appealing fuel economy be a great car if you want to tow stuff or carry a car full of stuff.
    The average driver can't tell the difference between a 4.5 second 0-60 or a 4.7 second 0-60.
    I am surprised that it is taking as long as it has to start running higher voltage systems in normal cars. Ditching the 12v system in a car and going 48V opens the way to saving a lot of weight. LIPO batteries are much lighter, have a much better energy density and switching to a 48V system through the entire car would save a whole load of weight in wiring as it could be much thinner and components such as starter motors, alternators etc would be smaller and lighter. Open this in you tube and you will see some blurb on the car. This car has a lot of weight saving on it which helps the performace figures.


    More technical stuff on the systems here.
    https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/04/20190411-audi.html
     
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  4. Evil Derboy

    Evil Derboy Registered User

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    RS5 Sportback has arrived in Italian showrooms with the 2.9 V6 BiTurbo so doesn’t look like the RS4 and RS5 will be affected.
     
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  5. SMI77

    SMI77 Australia

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    Firstly, many thanks for that link. Had it on my favourites since owning the S4 in '17, until our mac was hacked & required a guru to rebuild it. Grrr!!
    Of course, that link refers to the TFSI model only.

    Just clarifying, my last para was comparing 2016+ S4 TFSI to the next S4 TFSI fitted with mild-hybrid, only. TDI was not in the equation.
    Sure with batteries there is recuperative benefits & the EPC gives quicker response, but with mild-hybrid it will be heavier & require more power to compensate.
     
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  6. terminator x

    terminator x Registered User

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    So from V8 to V6 to diesel! Absolute joke imho.

    TX.

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  7. SMI77

    SMI77 Australia

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    This is an excerpt in the Audi Media release for the S6 & S7:

    For the United States, **** and Middle East: the S6 and S7 models with 2.9 TFSI

    In overseas markets – to reflect local customer preferences and driving profiles – the S6 and S7 will be available as the 2.9 TFSI with an output of 450 hp and 600 Nm(442.5 lb-ft)of torque. Like the TDI models, the V6 gasoline version will be equipped with both the EPC and the 48-volt MHEV system, for more performance and efficiency.

    Mindful that the S6 & S7 are heavy, they probably can absorb the battery weights. However, this brings up the same scenario as the S4/S5 TFSI with/without mild-hybrid, for the RS4/5. Yet, there appears to be no word on Porsche going mild hybrid on this 2.9 TT V6 engine.

    "In overseas markets – to reflect local customer preferences and driving profiles
    " - so you guys do not like petrol engines, eh?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
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  8. terminator x

    terminator x Registered User

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    Price though? Must be expensive eg way more than S4?

    TX.

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  9. SMI77

    SMI77 Australia

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    "The technology in the new S4 S5 cars is well tried and tested and has been around for many years now."
    Are we talking about the TFSI or TDI engines? The TDI's are new & TFSI will be changed over the new TFSI engines which have undergone major internal changes for durability, efficiency & no doubt handle increased performance as demand warrants.

    As far as I am aware the 12V is not ditched, but runs the normal electronics together with 48V handling the mild-hybrid stuff. In fact, there is an Audi Media release out that Audi are seriously looking at recycling old batteries. Would not think they would be the new light ones, but saving Euros??

    A quick read of the link appears to be a re-hash of Audi Media Centre releases, where 99% of journalist's reports would emanate from.
     
  10. NevMan

    NevMan Well known member

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    Definitely! Likely to be north of £70k, so more RS money
     
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  11. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    Correct, conventional 12v will still run the majority of the car's systems and the 48v circuits reserved for the motor and charging systems. Thus there are two types of battery(s) installed.
     
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  13. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Going forward I would expect that you would maybe see the removal of the 12V battery and a car running 48V as the primary system with a 48V motor generator system and possibly converting down to 12V to keep some low power legacy components. All of the major automotive suppliers are working on 48V systems.
    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/247889-cars-moving-48-volt-electrical-systems
    @sm177 I was talking about the 48v systems on the new TDI and the 3.0 TDI Bi-Tdi engines. The RS5 TDI concept car was around in 2014.
     
  14. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    I would have said I can't see them switching over to 48v for bulbs and ICE, however with Audi there is no predicting what they might do next...
     
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  15. Daggerit

    Daggerit Registered User

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    Who knows, it might run banks of LEDs better/more efficiently than the current 12v systems?


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  16. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    I am no electrical expert about LED's but I also would have thought 12 volt and 48 volt cables and connectors aren't compatible so it would make for challenge mixing them in a loom....
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  17. Daggerit

    Daggerit Registered User

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    More down to the load on the cable than the voltage so I guess it just depends how it’s set up I guess?


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  18. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    From my days when I was a motor vehicle technician I would say it would be more to do with resistance...
     
  19. Keef

    Keef Registered User

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    I'm sure Audi have there reason for all this, but i don't get it!
    VW have just started offering the Touareg V6 R line with the 3.0 TFSi as well as the TDi
     
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  20. SMI77

    SMI77 Australia

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    Not sure Audi, or even VAG, can just do want it wants:
    https://thedriven.io/2019/03/22/ger...-on-battery-and-hybrids-fuel-cells-not-ready/
    https://www.torquenews.com/3769/vw-...tablish-europe-wide-fast-charging-network-evs

    This all stems from an original agreement in circa 2014 between those German automakers, to combat superior Asian technology, which adopted a common 48v system and uniform ancillaries eg. plugs, connectors etc to allow connectivity at charging stations.
     
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  21. Daggerit

    Daggerit Registered User

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    Agreed, which makes up part of the load on the cable. Same reason the 12v starter motor cable has a significantly larger cross section than a domestic 240v cable.


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  22. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    Yup...
     
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  23. ub7rm

    ub7rm Registered User

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  24. Zippytoo

    Zippytoo Registered User

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    Latest on German forum suggests that the current A4 will go off sale on 16.05 and the new model 'facelift' will then be available for order from June, at least in Germany - for delivery in September / October...
     
  25. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    However the public are avoiding diesels and sales are still falling https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/new-car-sales-fall-april-plug-hybrids-hardest-hit
     
  26. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    That Bosch article is very interesting. I do really believe that the latest diesels with these kind of hybrid technologies are a good step ahead of even what was available a few years ago and they should have a future alongside petrol cars. Unfortunately VAG themselves have undermined a lot of peoples confidence in diesel with dieselgate. And it will be hard to convince people that things are changing.
    As the article says a lot of emissions are created by the way a vechicle is driven. A modern car running along at 50mph on a dual carriageway will be very efficient and emit very little in the way of emissions. In a town or city with stop start, sharp acceleration events etc this rises massively. By using the electric turbo concept you can get very rapid build up in boost to provide large amounts of torque at low RPM and by careful control of the AFR you reduce emissions. The reason dieselgate came around really was due to the issues you get with driveability on a diesel when you really try and limit emissions. The engine tends to become less responsive and the driving experience is not as good. Instead of finding expensive technical solutions to this problem they cheated and got the ECU to detect when it was running in a lab and then run lean.
    The old NEDC test was so far from the real world driving with it's slow acceleration times and unrealistic representation of real world driving it certainly didn't help to produce cars that in the real world worked well.
    The 48v mild hybrid system does away with the normal 12V alternator/ starter solution you get a combined 48V belt driven starter/ generator.
    https://www.continental-automotive....-Hybrid/48-Volt-belt-driven-starter-generator
    The 12V battery on the car can be a lot smaller as it's not having to supply the large amount of current required to start the car. A 48V lithium battery has a very much greater energy density than a normal 12V battery and the DC/ DC convertor will provide a lot of the 12V power required to run the car.
     
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  27. Zippytoo

    Zippytoo Registered User

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    And further update from that forum regarding the new 'facelift':
    "From well-informed source: almost no changes on the outside (except for front SW and taillights and 1-3 smaller retouchings on the body), focus of FL: inside, e.g. Touch display in the dashboard."
     
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  28. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    There are no changes to the shape, but the suggestion from Autobild.DE and other online motoring journals was that every body panel below the roof line is new..
     
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  29. Zippytoo

    Zippytoo Registered User

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    Yep, to be fair the German thread now has quite a bit of friendly disagreement on it (where have I seen that before? :friendly wink:), with one contributor sure that there will be few external changes beyond the lights and the other quite positive that panels will change. Clear as mud as usual!
     
  30. LeMans

    LeMans Registered User

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    So is current B9.5 and after 16.05 B10?

    Back to the S4 not buying into the whole diesel thing.

    There are plenty other manufactures out there offering a petrol / electric / hybrid for less £'s and with better performance.
     
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  31. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    The recent trim tweaks are in no way meaning it is a revision upwards. The facelift happening this year will more than likely be the B9.5..
     
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  32. Dippy

    Dippy Registered User

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    Doesn't really matter what "B" it is does it? The B6 was a genuine new platform after the B5, but the B7 was effectively a heavy facelift of the B6 using the same platform. The B8 and then B9 were again new platforms, but all of the B9 revisions have been on the same platform. It will be the same car whether it's called the B9.5, the B9.5.1, the B10 or the "Bollocks to this, let's fit a diesel engine because we don't give a **** about our customer base".
     
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  34. NevMan

    NevMan Well known member

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    :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:
     
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  35. Daggerit

    Daggerit Registered User

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    Maybe, but it’s pretty helpful for trying to figure out if a part will fit our car or not...


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  36. Zippytoo

    Zippytoo Registered User

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    Latest gossip is that the A4 - and I'm also guessing that means B9.5 - can be ordered from either week 21 or week 22 (in Germany), so that's sometime between 20th May and 2nd June, iff you believe that!
     
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  37. cuke2u

    cuke2u Well-Known Member

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    Will be interesting to see when it arrives in the configurator. However if it was that close would not the motoring hacks be reporting upon this?
     
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  38. Thundercliffe81

    Thundercliffe81 Registered User

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  39. Zippytoo

    Zippytoo Registered User

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  40. Zippytoo

    Zippytoo Registered User

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    It doesn't show much but does suggest that the F/L A4 is imminent:
    437203560415995
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  41. NevMan

    NevMan Well known member

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    I had heard elsewhere that A4 FL would be on German configurator end of May/June
     
  42. Zippytoo

    Zippytoo Registered User

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    Apparently it's going to be THIS Thursday...
     
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  43. Zippytoo

    Zippytoo Registered User

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    And now the reveal!
     
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